DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Virginia, directing your attention to the first part of November of 1969 were you incarcerated in Sybil Brand?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes I was.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And while you were incarcerated did you have occasion to meet Susan Atkins?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes I did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And by what name did you know Susan Atkins at Sybil Brand?

MS. GRAHAM: Sadie Glutz.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: When was the first time you had any conversation with Sadie Glutz?

MS. GRAHAM: Approximately November 3rd.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now on November 3, 1969 what conversation did you have with Sadie Glutz, to the best of your recollection?

MS. GRAHAM: She and I had the same job together which made us sit side by side. We started talking and I asked her what she was in jail for, and she told me that she was in for a first degree murder and she referred to it as the Hinman case and started to explain certain facts to me.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And what were those facts that she explained to you?

MS. GRAHAM: She was telling me that -- how incompetent the police were and that they had their story mixed up and that she was the actual murderer of the man, but that they thought her co-defendant, who was in the County Jail, was the murderer and that wasn't so.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say anything else about the Hinman case to you on the 3rd of November?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, we had a fairly long conversation about it. She said something that the case -- the murder was actually done over a car -- I mean concerning a car, and that the fellow that was murdered was gay, and she was bragging about the whole thing, and she was a little hostile and aggravated toward her co-defendant because she didn't think she would be where she was, but he talked too much.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say anything else?

MS. GRAHAM: No

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you have any conversation with her on November 3rd other than what she was in jail for and the Hinman case?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, actually I would say woman talk. Just normal conversation.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Nothing about any other murders?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now after the 3rd of November did you have subsequent conversation with Susan Atkins?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And when and where did this conversation take place?

MS. GRAHAM: I had many conversations with her in the lunch room, or I should say we ate together back in the dormitory. We were together quite a bit.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Virginia, let me ask you the question when was the next time, if at all, you had any conversation with Susan Atkins regarding any crimes?

MS. GRAHAM: That conversation was on November 6th at approximately quarter of five in the afternoon.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And where did that conversation take place?

MS. GRAHAM: In dormitory eight thousand when we were both housed. In my bed area.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And did you approach Susan Atkins or did she approach you?

MS. GRAHAM: No, I did not approach her. She approached my bed area.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And what did she say to you when she approached you?

MS. GRAHAM: She just came into my area and sat down on the bed and we just started chatting about various things, and the conversation led into LSD and then at this particular time I recall I had warned her that she talked entirely too much and that she had better watch what she said to people, and with that she said to me, "I know I can trust you" and that "you have kind brown eyes and I know you can see a person's soul in their eyes; and then she -- I again said to her, "well, still you have to be careful" because I knew of someone that also had talked to a cellinate andihey are in some pretty bad trouble, in fact, they were convicted, and she kind of laughed and she said that the police were on the wrong tack, that there were just a lot of murders they didn't even know what they were doing, and that led into the conversation about the Tate murders.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now how did your conversation about the Tate murders actually start?

MS. GRAHAM: It started after I had warned her about talking so much and when I had told her about this individual that I knew, and this again -- like I said -- she kind of laughed and started saying, "well the police are all wrong. They don't know what they are doing. There are a lot of murders that they haven't solved." And she said, "You know those murders in Benedict Canyon?" For a moment I didn't quite understand it although I knew about it, and I said, "Benedict Canyon" and she said, "Yes, the Tate murders."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say about the Tate murders?

MS. GRAHAM: She said, "Well, you know who did it don't you" and I looked at her, and I said, "No" and she said, "Well you are looking at her."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did you say to her -- and then what did she say after that? What did you say and what did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: I said, "You're kidding" and she said, "No I am not". So then I said, "Well do you mind if I ask you some questions." I said, "My curiosity is killing me." I said, "It couldn't have been all you, or was it" and she said, "Oh no?" I said "You don't have to answer me if you don't want to but I am dying of curiosity" and she said, "Oh no" and was very open about the whole thing, and continued telling me that there were four people involved, three women and one man, and I asked her then did she know these people that they murdered and she said to me no they did not know them and I asked here why they picked that house and she said -- her answer to me was, "because it was an isolated house." During this conversation she indicated to me that the man to whom she was referring that was with them had been to this house or knew something about this house, and I said -- I asked her again why the house was picked and she repeated the same thing over and I asked her, "Do you mind me questioning you?" I asked her many times during our conversation. She said, "No." She said that the reason the murders were committed was that they wanted to show the world. Now I didn't question her on what they meant. I just let her go on. I asked her to tell me about it and she said that they had a car and they took the car up to the house. I think she told me that they parked it at the bottom of the hill. I recall her saying something about walking up a hill. She said when they got up there to the gate she said there were some utility wires -- in fact I am very positive that she used this word -- and said that Charlie cut -- and my question to her was, "Well if he cut the utility wires wouldn't he cut off the electricity in the house and warn the people?" She looked at me and said, "Oh no, oh no. He knew what he was doing." Then she said they went on into the gate. She didn't say if they climbed over it or what. She said as they approached the house there was a boy in a car and they decided they he had to die because they were afraid he had spotted them. She said the words, "He went over to the car and put a gun through the window and shot him four times in the back of the head." I remember the four times very clearly. After this she said they proceeded on to the house. She said after she got into the house she said that they split up, the four of them. She said she and he were going toward the bedroom. As she was doing this she saw a girl sitting in a chair reading a book. The girl did not notice her. She said as she proceeded on to the bedroom and got to the doorway of the bedroom there was a man and a woman in the bedroom. The girl was sitting propped up in bed with a pillow behind her and the man was sitting on the edge of the bed and were in very deep conversation.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say what it was the girl was wearing?

MS. GRAHAM: She said she had on bikini pajamas or bikini nightie, bra and pants.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you ask her who this person was?

MS. GRAHAM: She just said a girl. Later on she did say -- call the word Sharon to me when she referred to the murder.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: In other words in a later point in the conversation she identified this girl who was wearing the bra and the bikini pants as Sharon Tate?

MS. GRAHAM: That is correct. She said that the man she was with and her went into the bedroom and she said he had the gun, she had a knife with her. She said they were forced into the living room. I asked her if they put up a struggle. She said, "No they did not because they were fearful." She said after they got them into the living room that she -- they were tied up around the neck, each one of them, and the purpose for this was so if they would struggle they would strangle. It was done for a security purpose. In the meantime she said the other man that was on the couch had made a brake for it. He ran past her. As he ran past her she said he was full of blood. She said that she stabbed him four or five times. She said he ran for the doorway. He got to the doorway and asked for help. She said after he got to the doorway he ran to the lawn and she said to me, and would you believe that he was there hollering 'help, help, somebody please help me.'" She said, "and nobody came."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she make any gestures to you when she was talking about the man that nobody helped him?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She got indignant and put her hand on her hip when she was describing that he ran on to the lawn.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now did Susan Atkins tell you what, if anything, happened after this other man ran out of the house -- what happened next?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She told me that Sharon Tate was crying and she said that she was so beautiful. She said that she held Sharon's arms behind her and she said that she turned her head to the left as I recall, and she said that she looked Sharon straight in the eye. She said Sharon was crying and pleading with her not to die. Her words were, "Please, please don't kill me. I don't want to die. I just want to have my baby." Sadie then said, "I looked her straight in the eye and I said bitch you might as well face it right now. You are going to die and I don't feel a thing behind it, and I killed her in a few minutes and she was dead."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now did Susan say anything after that about having blood on her hand?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: She said that after Sharon was dead she had blood on her hand. She said she looked at her hand and she put her hand to her mouth and thought to taste death and yet give life. Wow what a trip.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now did Susan say anything about her knife?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: She said -- her first comment to me was how fond she was of her knife. She called it her friend. She then asked me if I liked knives or ever had a knife. My answer to her was no I didn't have a knife and I didn't know to much about knives. She also said to me what a thrill it was -- what a tremendous feeling it was to take a knife and to put it into human flesh and that it felt soft when it went in and --

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say anything to you about losing her knife?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She said that she had lost her knife and she had looked for it but she didn't have time to really look for it too much. That she thought that the dog had taken it, and I said to her, "the dog" and she said, "yes" and I said "what kind of a dog" and she said, "well it was a spotted dog". I said to her, "a dalmation?" She said, "well I am not sure -- maybe a dalmation but it was a hunting dog" and I said "wymerreimer". She said, "I don't know" so I dropped the subject about the dog. She told me she couldn't find her knife and this is where she explained to me that she thought the dog had taken it and buried the knife. She said, "you know how dogs are."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now after she said she killed Sharon Tate did she say anything about wanting to do anything with the eyes of the victims in the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She said she wanted to take their eyes out and squash them against the wall and cut their fingers off, and the purpose of this being for shock value -- to shock the world to do helter skelter.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And did she tell you whether she did this or not?

MS. GRAHAM: She said she did not have time.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you ask her any question about whether or not it bothered her to kill Sharon Tate?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes I did. In fact I asked her, "did it bother you to kill her because she was going to have a baby -- she was pregnant?" and she looked at me very quizzically and said, "well I thought you understood." She said, "and I loved her, and in order for me to kill her I was killing part of myself when I killed her. I loved her." I said to her, "oh yeah, I do understand."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan say anything to you about putting her hand down on the desk?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She was laughing in fact at the fact that there was obviously very little clues and she commented to me that she was so in tune with the universe and that her spirit was so right she put her palm print on the desk and she laughed and said that the police didn't even find it.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say what desk she put the palm print on?

MS. GRAHAM: No she didn't. She just said a desk.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan say anything about how she felt after the murder?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She told me that she was very tired but that she felt elated and at peace with herself because now she knew that helter skelter had just started.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan say anything to you about what the other people who were along with her had done as far as whether or not they participated in anything?

MS. GRAHAM: Most of her conversation was about what she did. However she did indicate to me that the other man, Charlie, had killed the Parent boy in the car -- the boy in the car. I do recall her saying something about after the other man, Frokowski, had run out on to the lawn that somebody killed him.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Sadie ask you during your conversation whether or not you liked blood?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And what did she say about this?

MS. GRAHAM: She asked me if I ever seen much blood and my comment to that was, “no I hadn't” and she said, "well its really beautiful. It is warm and it is sticky and it's nice."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins say that there was a lot of blood inside the Tate residence?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you ask Susan Atkins what time the murders took place?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes I did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And what did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: She said between twelve and one o'clock in the morning.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins give you the names of the girls that were with her on the night of the murders?

MS. GRAHAM: No she did not.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she give you the name of the male that was with her on the night of the Tate murders?

MS. GRAHAM: She called him Charlie.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins say anything to you about knowing who the people were in the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: She told me that she did not know any of the people in the Tate house. She told me that it did not matter who was up there or how many were up there, whether it was one person or ten persons, they were all going to die.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan say anything to you about knowing who the owner of the house was?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She told me the owner of the house was Terry Melcher.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say anything to you about him?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. She commented to me that he was a phony. She indicated that he knew certain members of the family -- girls. That he drove a Rolls Royce and that it appeared to me that they had been friendly some way or other -- in fact I think she told me that they met in the Pacific Palisades when he was coming around the hill he picked up a few of the girls. She said, he wanted to join them but at the last minute he changed his mind because he did not want to give up his worldly possessions and she felt he was a phony.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan tell you how they happened to pick the Tate house to commit the murders?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did. I asked her how come they picked the house and her answer to me was "because it was isolated."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins tell you who was the last to die at the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And who did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: She said Sharon Tate was, and she laughed about it.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins say anything about tying up Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring?

MS. GRAHAM: She said to me just that a rope was put around both of their necks.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And did she tell you the purpose of that?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What was the purpose?

MS. GRAHAM: The purpose of that was if they would struggle, they would strangle.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins tell you anything about whether or not a hood was put over Jay's face?

MS. GRAHAM: I asked her about it in fact and she told me no, there was not a hood put over his head.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins mention anything to you about the LaBianca murders?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And what did you say to her and what did she say to you?

MS. GRAHAM: Toward the very end of our conversation I said to her, how about those two people the following evening, the LaBiancas? She said in the Los Feliz district? I said yes. I said did you do that? She looked at me; she smiled; she winked her eye and said "what do you think?” In other words, she shook her head yes.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: About how long did this conversation between you and Susan Atkins last on November 6?

MS. GRAHAM: I would say that it started about a quarter of 5 -- maybe 4:30. It ended approximately 10 minutes of 6 or quarter of 6.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: During your conversation with Susan Atkins, did you warn her during the conversation that she shouldn't be talking?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I did. In fact I warned her on 4 or 5 occasions that she talked too much, and with this she laughed and smiled and said that she wasn't worried about it; that she knew how to play crazy and she also knew how to act like a little girl -- and gave me a demonstration like a little girl, and beside that, she said she had an alibi anyway.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins talk to you during this conversation about "helter-skelter?"

MS. GRAHAM: Only to mention to me -- she used the word "helter-skelter" during our conversation a few times. She did not explain it to me what it meant until the following day.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now, during this conversation on the 6th, in what context did she bring up the term "helter-skelter?"

MS. GRAHAM: It was brought up after she left the Tate house and she was explaining to me that she had been at peace with herself and that she was -- this was the beginning of "helter-skelter."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Is that how she said to you how she felt after she left the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What else did she say about how she felt after she left the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: That she was elated, very tired and at peace with herself. She was at peace with herself because she knew this was the beginning of "helter-skelter."

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now, the next day when you had a conversation with her, you said that she told you what "helter-skelter" meant. Is that right?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say it meant?

MS. GRAHAM: First of all she asked me if I knew what "helter-skelter” was, and I told her no I didn't, and she said "helter-skelter" is the beginning of the end of the establishment. It's revolution, it's chaos, and it's murder.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What, if anything, did Susan Atkins say happened after she and the others left the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: She said that they walked down the hill and got into the car and she told me that she sat up in the front of the car and that they continued onward; that they changed their clothes upon getting into the car because the clothing was bloody. She had told me also, earlier, that they had brought a change of clothing with them because they knew what they were going to do. After that in the car, they were driving away they happened to see a house that had some water there -- either a water hose or a fountain, and she said they decided to pull over to wash themselves off. They got out of the car then proceeded to go over by where the water was. They were starting to wash themselves when a man came out of the house wanting to know what they were doing there. He was very angry. They started to walk back toward the car. They got into the car. The man approached them and came around on the drivers side still hollering, very upset. She said that the man put his hand in the car as though to reach for the keys and with this she said Charlie jammed it, meaning that Charlie put the car in gear, and they sped off and she laughed because she said the man almost lost his arm because of this.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say anything about who the man was who owned the house?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. She said that would you dig this. The man was the Mayor of Beverly Hills or the Sheriff of Beverly Hills, and she thought it was very amusing because it was someone in authority.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now, did Susan say anything that happened after this incident -- after she used the hose and sped off? What happened for the rest of the evening? Did she say anything?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins tell you what happened to the clothing that they wore during the Tate murders?

MS. GRAHAM: I don't remember, I forget.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she tell you what happened with the gun or any of the knives other than the knife she said she lost in the house?

MS. GRAHAM: No she did not.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: During your conversation with Susan Atkins on November 6, did Susan appear to be getting excited?

MS. GRAHAM: Very much so. So much so I had to tell her on 2 or 3 occasions to lower her voice.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins appear remorseful at all?

MS. GRAHAM: No, no way whatsoever.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now, during your conversation on November 6, did Susan Atkins say anything about the fact that there were going to be more murders?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: She told me that they were going to go across country in a school bus or a bus; that they had -- and that they were just going to murder people at random.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: During your conversation on November 6, did Susan Atkins mention anything to you about any murders that had taken place at Spahn Ranch?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did. She told me that there were 2 or 3 other murders that had been committed there. She did not elaborate on it except to say that there had been other murders.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you say anything to Susan Atkins during your conversation about the fact that you had been to the Tate house before?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And what did you say to her?

MS. GRAHAM: I had told her during the conversation that I knew the house vaguely; that my husband and I had been looking for a house many years ago and had been up there; and that I knew the house.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did Susan Atkins say about that?

MS. GRAHAM: "Oh really?"

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she appear to be very interested?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: During your conversation with Susan Atkins, did you say anything to her about seeing the owner of the Tate house on television and the fact that the owner was not Terry Melcher?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did you say to her?

MS. GRAHAM: I just told her that I saw the owner on television and it wasn't Terry Melcher, and she sluffed it off and still was rather insistent. Well, no, no, it's Terry's house.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you have any conversation with Susan following that concerning other murders?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And when did you have that conversation with her?

MS. GRAHAM: Approximately 2 to 3 days after our initial conversation November 6. The 8th or the 9th.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: And where did this conversation take place?

MS. GRAHAM: In my bed area.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What, if anything, did Susan Atkins tell you about "other murders" in this conversation?

MS. GRAHAM: Approximately on the 8th or 9th of November she came into my bed area and sat down on the bed and we started talking. She had a movie magazine in her hand and it was opened up to a picture of Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, and she was laughing in a rather gay mood, and she said that she had been tripping on other things that she -- other murders that she could do and it had been on her mind for quite a while; and that she had come to a decision what she could do; and then she showed me a picture and she said -- meaning Elizabeth Taylor -- how beautiful she was, but that she had to destroy the ugly -- meaning she had to bring out the beauty -- meaning her face; and I said what do you mean, as she was telling me this. She told me she had decided to murder Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton and asked me if I would like to hear it and I said yeah, go ahead, I would. She said that she had given great thought to this and that she wanted to do something she thought would be unusual and again that would shock the world; so she decided that she would take Elizabeth Taylor's eyes out. She told me that she knew how to gouge peoples eyes out; that Charlie had shown her how to gouge out peoples eyes. She then said that she was going to take her knife, or a knife, and she was going to burn the end of it until it was red hot. She wanted to take it and put it on the side of Elizabeth Taylor's face. This was more or less to leave her mark; and then she commented about the smell of disintegrating flesh -- was going back to the elements, back to infinity. She continued on and then said that as far as Burton was concerned, that she wanted to castrate him, and after she castrated him and removed Elizabeth Taylor's eyes she was going to put them in a small bottle of alcohol; and then she laughed and said "and dig this would you, and mail it to Eddie Fisher.” Then our conversation did not end there. It did as far as Elizabeth Taylor and Burton were concerned. Just at this time the music in the intercom in Sybil Brand was playing and it happened that Tom Jones voice came through and she said "and him too". She said I'm going to get him, she says, but I have something unusual for him. She told me that she was physically attracted to him sexually and what she wanted to do is she was going to get him in a position and force him to have sex with her at the point of her knife; and that when he climaxed, she was going to cut his throat because, she said, to take away the persons most precious gift was really -- I mean this really, really was a big thing to her and I looked at her and she said "shall I go on?"; and I said yeah, go ahead; and so she said, and I’m telling you who else I don't like. I'm definitely going to get -- and then she said -- Frank Sinatra. I commented to her -- Sadie, you just can't walk up and find these people and just go and kill them, and she said well this is no problem. And with this she indicated that it was a simple matter to find out where these people lived; and I assumed that it was because she, herself, had found people in the industry, and she kind of looked at me like you're crazy to even ask such a dumb question. She then said as far as Sinatra, she felt that she really had something choice for him. She said that she was going to go to his house and she was going to knock on his door and she was positive that he was going to answer it because she knew that Frank likes girls -- likes women, and she said that she would go in and -- at this time she also said that they would go in, and indicated that her friends would be more then glad to go with her on this particular thing. She said that she was going to get a meat hook and she was going to hang him up on the meat hook upside-down; she was going to tie him up -- if I'm not mistaken I think she said she was going to -- tie him so he couldn't get away; and that she was going to put his own music on and they were going to skin him alive while his music played; and that after they did this, that she was going to take the skin -- and she then told me that Charlie had then shown her how to tan hides and that she was going to make purses out of it and try to sell them to Hippie shops so that everybody would have a little piece of Frank. She commented about someone she didn't like, Franks' son. She didn't elaborate on this; and so then I looked at her and I said, well, any more, and she said yes, one more, and I said who is it? She said I don't like Steve McQueen, and I said why? Now, the only thing she related to me about this, that she didn't like him because she felt that he was getting to politically inclined in things and of course this went against her grain. I don't know what she referred to when she said "political involvement", but how she felt that he was a member of the establishment, and she also said that they thought also these murders would really be a shock value; that the world would notice; that she had come to the conclusion that it had to be people of importance; that this is the only way that the world would know.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say anything about how she was going to murder Steve McQueen?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Just that he had been picked.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you have any discussions with Susan Atkins about Charles Manson?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: When was the first time you had a conversation with Susan about Charles Manson?

MS. GRAHAM: November 7, was when she identified Charles Manson to me.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: I happened to be in her bed area, because Ronnie had the bed next to her.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Ronnie Howard?

MS. GRAHAM: Right. I was down to talk to Ronnie about something, Susan was lying on her bed. She looked at me and she said, Virginia, Virginia, remember that beautiful cat I was telling you about yesterday? She said, I want you to dig on his name. She said Now listen, his name is Manson, Manson, nor Manson but Manson.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What if anything, did she say about Charles Manson, in your conversations with her.

MS. GRAHAM: She talked about him as though one would talk about something reverant, something holy, almost God-like. That she was in love with him, that he was to save the world. He was Jesus, almost.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins say that Charles Manson was Jesus?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Virginia, did Susan Atkins say anything on the night of the Tate murders, about being given instructions by Charles Manson?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did, she said that she had been given instructions by Charlie.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say what these consisted of?

MS. GRAHAM: She did not go into it.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say how they lived out at the ranch, what did she tell you about the life she led out at the Spahn Ranch?

MS. GRAHAM: A place of total happiness. All types of sexual orgies, of a type of ceremony.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now, what, if anything, did Susan Atkins say about these orgies?

MS. GRAHAM: She would -- she described to me that on various occasions that Charlie would put himself on a cross. And that a girl would kneel at the foot of the cross and that he would moan, cry out as though he was being crucified, and that they also would sacrifice animals and drink their blood as a fertility right, because Charlie wanted the girls to produce children, because they were trying to form a new type of society. A new type of human being. But, anything went in the sexual orgies. Boy with boy, girl with girl, this was immaterial because there is no difference. Every human being is related to another one. There is really no difference. They were very happy there.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Now, Virginia, generally, in all the conversations you had with Susan Atkins about Charles Manson, what are some of the things that she said about Charles Manson.

MS. GRAHAM: That he was their father, their leader, that he was their love. And, again, that he was a Jesus, that he was going to lead them to the desert. That there is a very large hole in Death Valley that only-Charlie knows where it is, but that right now there is a civilization of people living under the earth. That there is a stream that runs along this place and that he was going to take the "family" and the chosen few and they were going to go there and live there.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she say what Charlie said? What these chosen few were going to do?

MS. GRAHAM: That these people were also going out and they were going to execute, assassinate murder other people.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: How were they going to select these other people?

MS. GRAHAM: At random.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: The day after your conversation with Susan Atkins concerning the murders, did she say anything about the decor of the house, inside of the house?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I did hear something. I asked her this question while we were at work. I said to her, by the way Sadie, I'm very curious, being I had mentioned to her that I had been to the house previously, many years ago, I asked her, Sadie, is the house still done in the same colors as when I was there? Was it white and gold? I was just taking a shot in the dark, hoping she would answer me back the proper colors of the house. Her only answer to me was, uh huh, meaning the house was done in white and gold. She seemed reluctant to go on with the conversation and I dropped it.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins tell you in any of these conversations you had with her about how she met Charles Manson?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: She told me it was at a party in San Francisco, and that as she entered this party she saw a man sitting at a stool by a piano. He had a guitar and he was singing. She approached him. She said that she looked at him and he looked at her and she knew right away that that was it. That was the man. She told me that he talked with her, that she had expressed an interest in playing a guitar, though she didn't know how, she said he looked at her and handed her the guitar and said yes, you can. She said that the transfer of eye to eye contact was unbelievable. That she knew she could do it and with this she said she picked up the guitar and she could play then they left. They went to a room. He told her he wanted to make love to her. She took her clothes off and with this he stood her in front of a mirror and he told her how beautiful she was and he asked her if she had ever made love to her father. She said no she hadn't. So he told her that he was her father and she was to make love to him as though he was her father and she said it was the most beautiful experience she had ever had in her life.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins on the conversation on the sixth, ever mention whether or not the gun changed hands, whether or not anybody had the gun other than Charlie?

MS. GRAHAM: No, she did not. She just told me that Charlie had the gun.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan mention to you at all, how Frykowski, Folger, or Sebring, didd?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins talk about anybody having any other weapons, other than the fact that she had the knife and Charlie had the gun?

MS. GRAHAM: I do not recall. No.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins mention anything to you about knowing Dennis Wilson, a member of the Beach Boys singing group?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say?

MS. GRAHAM: Some members of the "family" lived there in his home in the Pacific Palisades and indicated to me this is how she met Terry Melcher, that he used to use the road by the home there and he met some of the girls.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins say anything about how entry was gained to the house

MS. GRAHAM: No, she did not.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins tell you who drove the car when they left the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Who did she say drove the car?

MS. GRAHAM: Charlie.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Where did she say she was in the car?

MS. GRAHAM: Sitting in the front seat.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Where were the other two girls?

MS. GRAHAM: In the rear.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did you ask Susan Atkins about whether or not there was a struggle at the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: I asked her if Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring, when they were bringing them to the living room, put up a fight and her answer was no, but they were fearful.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did she mention anything else about any struggle or absence of a struggle to the rest of the night at the Tate house?

MS. GRAHAM: No, just to say that the other man broke loose but I would have to say no.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: During one of the conversations, other than the one on November 6, did Susan Atkins indicate to you what she meant by Helter Skelter?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: What did she say she meant?

MS. GRAHAM: Helter Skelter meant revolution, chaos, murder, the beginning of the end, of the establishment.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Virginia, getting back to the occasion where Susan Told you about her desire to murder Elizabeth and Richard Burton, did she say anything about tying them up?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, she did, she said she was going to make sure they were tied securely from hand to foot so that they couldn't get away, so there won't be a problem like there was at the Tate house.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KAY: Did Susan Atkins say who gave her the name of Sadie Glutz?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. She did. She said Charles Manson gave her that name and on occasion would call her Sexy Sadie.