• Patricia Krenwinkel • 2016

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And we're on record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. Good morning. Today's date is December 29th, 2016. The time is approximately 9:04 a.m. This is a Subsequent Parole Suitability Hearing for Mr. Krenwinkel, W-08314, who is present in the Board of Parole Hearing Room at the California Institution for Women in Corona, California. Ms. Krenwinkel was received on April 28th, 1971 from the county of Los Angeles. Controlling offense in this case is PC 187, Murder in the First Degree, arising from a conviction in Case Number A253156, and resulting in a sentence of seven years to life. Ms. Krenwinkel was also convicted of six additional counts, they were non-controlling offenses of Murder in the First Degree, as well, in this case. California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation has calculated the minimum eligible parole date in this case to be February 16th, 1977. Ms. Krenwinkel also qualifies for youth parole consideration, she was 21 years old at the time of the life term offenses. Today's Panel shall be giving great weight to the diminished culpabilities of juveniles as compared to adults, hallmark features of youth and any subsequent growth in maturity of Ms. Krenwinkel in reviewing her case for suitability for parole today, and that's pursuant to Penal Code Section 3051. This hearing is being audio recorded, so for the purpose of voice identification everyone present is asked to state your full name, spell your last name. Ms. Krenwinkel, when we get to you, I'm going to ask you for your CDCR Number as well; okay? Okay. So I'll begin, we'll go around the room to my left, and we'll finish off with the victim's next-of-kin on the left side of the room, here. Kevin Chappell, C-H-A-P-P-E-L-L, Commissioner, Board of Parole Hearing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Nga Lam, last name, L A- M, Deputy Commissioner.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Donna Lebowitz, L-E-B-O-W-I-T-Z, Deputy District Attorney, Los Angeles County.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Keith Wattley, W-A-T-T-L-E-Y, attorney for Ms. Krenwinkel.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Patricia Krenwinkel, K-R-E-N W- I-N-K-E-L, and my W Number is 08314.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you. And in the corner.

MS. ENGLE: Meryl Engle, E-N-G-L-E.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Can you hear?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: She probably would have to come to the mic.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So we'll have you step up here, and so we can get you on the --

MS. ENGLE: Meryl Engle, E-N-G-L-E.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And what is your position here, today?

MS. ENGLE: I'm with NBC Universal.

MS. THOMAS: Rosie Thomas, T-H-O-M-A-S, Public Information Officer.

ASSOCIATE CHIEF DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ZARRINNAM: Ali Zarrinnam, Z-A-R-R-I-N-N-A-M, Associate Chief Deputy Commissioner, observing purposes only.

MS. TREJO: Leticia Trejo, T-R-E-J-O, victim's advocate.

MR. DIMARIA: Anthony DiMaria, D-I-M-A-R-I-A, Sebring next-of-kin.

MR. WILLIAMS: Tony LaMontagne, Tony LaMontagne, L-A-M-O-N-T-A-G-N-E, LaBianca next-of-kin.

MR. SMALDINO: Louis Smaldino, S-M-A-L-D-I-N-O, victim's advocate for LaBianca family.

MS. TATE: Debra Tate, T-A-T-E, next-of-kin to Sharon Tate.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you. And just a little word about our media representation, she introduced herself on the record, she is here for observation purposes only and will not be participating in this hearing this morning. We also have one correctional officer in the room with us this morning, and she is here for security purposes only. So Ms. Krenwinkel, before we get into the hearing, I'd like to ask you some medical questions, and I'd like to conduct an ADA Review. I see you have noted on the record that you have a reading level at 10.9; is that correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. Yes, sir.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yes. Okay. And I see you're wearing glasses. Are those prescription glasses?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And they work for you okay?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Any problems hearing?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. How do you do with sitting for long periods of time? Thank you.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Just fine.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Just fine. Okay. Any problems walking? Any problems with your mobility?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No. No problems at all?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So I've researched through our database, it's the DECS database. And it -- I see a form that you signed. It's the 1073 Form. It's a request -- Notice and Request for Assistance Form. That form has -- it notes your glasses, but then it says no other accommodations needed. Does that sound correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay. That's -- yes, that's correct.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And I note you do have a high school diploma or GED?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I have a high school diploma.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And you've upgraded educationally since just your high school diploma; correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I have a Bachelor's of Science.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And what is --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: In Human Services.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What is the -- what's the Bachelor of Sciences in, what area?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: In Human Services.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Human Services. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. Human Services.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Ever been part of the Mental Health Service Delivery System as a CCCMS or an EOP?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No. Okay. Ever take psychotropic medication?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Any other medical concerns that you may have, that we haven't discussed, that you feel may affect your ability to participate in this hearing this morning?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No. Okay. So based on our discussion, medically, I see no reason why you can't continue to participate in this hearing. Do you agree?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I agree.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Counsel, you concur?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: I do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. Thank you. Going down to your Client Rights. I see on August 2nd, 2016, it looks like you signed your Notice of Hearing Rights, Form 1002. Do you remember signing that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: At the time of signing those rights did you have an opportunity to discuss your rights with your counselor?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Did you, also, have an opportunity to discuss your rights with your attorney?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Any questions about your rights?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: None.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So to this point, do you feel your rights have been met, to this point?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Counsel, do you concur?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Yes. There's a couple of procedural issues I have, if you want state some objections --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Oh.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: -- now, I can. Or I can --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So are these objections or --

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Objections for the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Meaning, not anything you can really do anything about. It has to do with Notice issues and access to documents in her File.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So we'll -- I'll get to that. I'm coming up to that.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: No. No. In terms of --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But as far as her Hearing Rights, just to this point, I mean as far as her --

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Everything is fine.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- being able to review her File and whatnot.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Oh, I didn't ask you. Did you -- were you able to participate in an Olson Review, if you wanted?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. So at this time I'd like to check with both counsel to make sure you received the Ten-Day Packet, the Master Packet and the Comprehensive Risk Assessment for this hearing?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I received the Ten-Day Packet. However, I was informed that there were some Petitions, and some letters, and some comments that were submitted well in advance of the time for the publication of the Ten-Day Packet. And they included comments from all over the world against the finding of parole suitability. There were 10,153 comments at the time of submission. And in terms of signatures on this Petition, again, from all over the world from, at least, it looks like nine or ten other countries are 89,103 signatures on this Petition.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you're saying that there's was a Petition was submitted and didn't make it into the Packet, is that --

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So it wasn't in the form of opposition letters. It was just a Petition?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well, no. The Petition included, as attachments, opposition letters.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Commissioner, I'm sorry to interrupt.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That's okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm going to have Ms. Lebowitz use both mics. That seems to be a little weak. Thank you so much.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I feel like I'm at a Senate Confirmation Hearing. Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That's all right. So do you know -- how was the Petition and the letters, how were they submitted? I'm wondering.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Email.

MS. TATE: They were submitted in a digital file and I have confirmation of receipt.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Were they sent to the Board of Parole Hearings?

MS. TATE: Parole -- Board of Parole Hearings. That is correct.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Do you have a hard copy of the Petition with you?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I have it on my computer and I can email it to you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let me -- what I'll do at the first break, I want to go back through our File. And you did say that it was submitted and you received a confirmation. So what I'll -- what I would like to do is just maybe do some backtracking. Is there a date that it would -- do we have a date that it was sent to the Board of Parole Hearings?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: December 9th.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. So at our first break, I'd like to do some research on it. Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you. Mr. Wattley, did you -- were you able to receive the Ten-Day Packet, Master Packet?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: I did receive the Master File and the Ten-Day Packet.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. Thank you.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Neither of which had a Petition that Ms. Lebowitz mentioned.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. We'll do some research at the first break.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. Preliminary objections?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Yeah. The first one relates to the use of confidential information in Ms. Krenwinkel's case. If you saw the transcript from the last hearing, in 2011, this was an issue where the Panel said that there were some 80 letters in the confidential folder that they refused to disclose to us. I think the confidential rules actually require disclosure of as much as can be disclosed. The Panel didn't see it that way. I, a couple of months ago, contacted the institution about this issue to make sure that the 810, the listing of confidential information, is up-to-date and that it actually only includes things that are properly placed in the confidential file. They assured me that everything that was supposed to be in there would be reflected on the 810. But when I got the 810 it didn't show me 80 letters from 2011. So I don't have any confidence that it's accurate and including everything that may be in that file. Obviously, that's the only Notice that I have and that Ms. Krenwinkel has. So the objection, as I said, for the record, is really to -- the way in which the institution manages that file and provides access to it. I know the Board doesn't control that. But I would urge the Board not to consider anything that we haven't had access to.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So I note your objection. If we do intend -- or if we do use confidential information, of course, we will give you any -- as much non-confidential information as we can pertaining to the information. Don't know, at this point, if we are. And we will notify you, just in accordance, with policy.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Okay. And in -- I don't know if you mentioned at the outset, that in addition to being a Youthful Parole Hearing it's, also, an Elderly Parole Hearing, because Ms. Krenwinkel is 69 now. And in the -- I'll have some comments -- corrections, really, in the Comprehensive Risk Assessment. But I can hold it until we get to that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. All right. Attorney Wattley, is your client willing to speak to this Panel on all matters today?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Yes. She is.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Great. Thank you. So Ms. Krenwinkel, this Panel, we've reviewed your Probation Officer's Report. We've reviewed your sentencing documentation. We have a database that's called WatchDox. It's a summary of your record. Your Central File, we've reviewed that as well. We've, also, reviewed the Comprehensive Risk Assessment. It looks like on October 18th, 2016, you sat with Dr. Athans for an interview.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So were you able obtain a copy of that Report?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So we reviewed that Report as well. And as we're discussing information today, you'll be encouraged to correct or clarify the record for us. So if you hear something that you feel is not quite accurate, and your attorney just kind of brought that up, you and/or your attorney will have an opportunity to correct that for us. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: All right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So we've, also, reviewed the confidential portion of your Central File. And if we use any portion of that, we will advise you in accordance with Title 15. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So it's important you understand that we're not here to reconsider the findings of the trial and Appellate Courts. Nor are we here to retry your case. In other words, this Panel accepts, as true, all the findings of the previous courts. Instead, the purpose of today's hearing is to consider your suitability for parole. In doing so, we'll consider a lot of factors, including the number and nature of crimes for which you've committed, your prior criminal and social history, your behavior since programming -- your behavior and programming since your commitment, your plans, if released, as well as your responses today. So strongly encourage you to be completely honest with us, even if telling the truth means you change an answer to some question you've been asked in the past. All we want is honesty. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So with that, I'd like to swear you in. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you give at this hearing today will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Thank you. So format of today's hearing, we're going to start off we'll talk about social history, life prior to the life crime. We'll lead up to a discussion about the life crime. After the life crime, we'll move to what we call post-conviction factors. That's what you've been involved with during your incarceration. That discussion will include a discussion about your release plans. After that discussion, we'll open the hearing up for clarifying questions. We'll start with the Deputy District Attorney. She'll ask clarifying questions. Then, your attorney will have an opportunity to ask clarifying questions of you. After clarifying questions, we'll move to closing statements. Both counsel will be able to give closing statements. And you'll have an opportunity to give a closing statement. After your closing statement, we'll turn to the victim's next-of-kin. And they'll have an opportunity to give Impact Statements. After all statements are complete, we'll call a recess. We'll clear the room. My colleague and I will discuss all the information we have in front of us. We'll deliberate. We'll reach a decision. Then, we'll bring everyone back into the room. And you'll have our decision today. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So with that, are you ready to get started?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yes. Okay. All right. So let's talk a little bit about your social history. It looks like you were born in Los Angeles, California.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. For the most part, born and raised up until -- it looks like you moved away to Alabama around what 15 years old or so?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, about 16. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: About 16. Okay. Had both parents in the household up until around 15, 16?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: About 15. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Fifteen. Okay. Denied any history of any type of abuse in the household.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That you suffered from any type of abuse?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No. Okay. So the Panel -- I want to open it up to you. So talk to us about life growing up. How was your life?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: When I was very young it all seemed -- it seemed, it seemed pretty normal. One of the things that I -- that we did do is move from the first -- I lived in Baldwin Hills and then I -- my parents moved away about -- when I was about seven or eight we moved into Westchester, in Los Angeles County. And I was, I was there until my parents' divorce and we moved away. In my household there was, there was, there was some division, because my sister -- my mother, this was her second marriage. Her first husband had died. She had a child who was my sister -- my stepsister, Charlene. And Charlene -- there was, there was a lot of problems with her. She was seven years older than I was. And I just know that we -- there was, there was a lot of tension between my sister and myself when I -- when we were growing up, because she felt that somehow that my father didn't love her. And she, at times, -- she was extremely vocal. The older she got she became more aggressive. And she ran away a lot. And she was -- there was, there was just a lot of division. She was deemed incorrigible by the schools and they didn't want her. She ran away. She went to jail a couple of times. She used drugs by the time she was -- well, she got pregnant by the time she was 15. She has been --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let me ask you this. Let me stop you real quick.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you said that, you know, she was -- there was some division. She was vocal.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And she was aggressive. Was this aggressiveness -- was this directed towards you or just the family?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Sometimes, yes. I mean, she would scream at me and tell me, you know, mother doesn't love you, you know, and --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- you know, father -- she just was often just really out of control, which created dissention between my mother and father, who tried to figure out whose responsibility it was to control my sister. And like I said, she often ran away and my father would try to go find her. And there was -- there were just -- it was -- and there were just a lot problems surrounding that. And like I said, then she ran away and she got married. She got pregnant. And she started using heroin by about 16 years old.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so she would come. She would sometimes steal from the family. She lived the life of an addict, really.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And it created problems. My father never knew quite what to do with her. My father was a man who decided that best for him to work. And he was very -- at often times he was just kind of -- he was, most of the time, emotionally unavailable. He and my mother really split when I was about 13. He lived in the den and my mother lived -- would sleep in the bedroom. And he was, basically, kind of a workaholic. They said they were staying together for me, which made me feel extremely guilty, because my mother was so upset. And she was a housekeeper, basically. She did try to work a couple of times. My -- since it was the fifties and that time, my father, you know, would tell her, well, women don't have much business sense. So anyway, it -- by the time I was probably about 13, things were really not going very well in the house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: They were not people that -- my mother and father were not, you know, openly trying to take anything out on me. They were trying to figure out what to do with their own life. My father -- I wasn't -- I didn't really know that. But I knew there was some problems. My father seemed to have some affairs on the side.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And my mother was very -- you know, she knew that. She was very upset about that. But sometimes -- it wasn't really spoken to. I just know she was often crying, and would sleep, and, you know, it was just, like I said, in the -- originally, you know, when I was, you know, when I was very little it all seemed, you know, pretty, pretty okay. And then, things started, you know, as I grew up, I started to see that there -- it wasn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. So let me ask you this, --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But we didn't talk about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- how was school for you? How'd you do in school?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think I was pretty good in the beginning. But then, pretty soon, I was pretty much just an average student.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, by the time things started happening, you know, more and more within the household, I think I let down. I didn't really know what to do. I gained a lot of weight. And I felt very, you know, at school I started to feel not in, you know, not -- kind of like an outsider a bit and because of the -- being overweight. And eventually I did, though, in Westchester I went from elementary school, to junior high. At that time it was called junior high. And to a high school, but then we moved. And then, I went to three -- when I graduated from high school, it was the third high school I went to. And I was, I was really, you know, when we moved it was really difficult, because I had grown up in this neighborhood with the people that I had grown up with. And once we moved, we moved to Alabama, which cut me off from all the people that I had, basically, grown up -- or would have graduated with or, you know, would have known. So for me, at that time, I felt really out of place. And felt really brokenhearted when we moved, because it was what I had known. And --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- we left.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you're --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My mother and I.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: When they split, my father, to clarify.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- with you going to multiple high schools. So it wasn't because of the behavior issue or because you were isolating yourself, it was because the family was moving from place to place.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My mother. Yeah. When she got divorced, they -- she went to Alabama to be close with her sister. And we moved. So we moved there. And it -- so I went to a high school there. And then, we moved back to California, where I graduated from University High.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: In LA.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did you graduate on time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You did.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Actually.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm surprised I did, but I did, because I was -- I let down educationally.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So after high school, you attended -- I believe I read you attended college. You started in Alabama.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I started -- yes. I started a semester of college in Alabama.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And where was that? I mean, it was in Alabama. What was the name of that college? Do you remember?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Spring Hill.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Spring Hill. Okay. So you're living in Alabama, going to school. What happens? What happens from there?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I was in high school there for a semester and then my mother wanted to come back to California. My -- her -- my sister was there and she was having problems. And so she came back --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- to California. And we went to -- we lived in West LA in an apartment. And I went to University High School for a semester. And it was all very quick, because when we went to -- it was only about six months here, and then six months there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we were back.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And I read -- and I know you've had an extensive drug history; correct? In the past?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. It wasn't so -- it became more extensive once I met Manson. But I did -- I drank when I was probably about 15 years old or 16, I started drinking.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, I had marijuana and pills, some pills. And I took Benzedrine. And those were supplied by my sister.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And I believe I read -- initially, though it was, it was prescribed --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I tried hallucinogens.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- to me. Let me -- you know, we can't talk over each other, because, just like prior hearings, you know, everything is being recorded. We have a transcriber. So I'll try my best not to talk over you. And I ask for that in return. Okay. Let me ask you this, though, I know -- I remember reading, initially, the Benzedrine, it was prescribed; right, by a doctor?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, they didn't, they didn't prescribe Benzedrine, but it was -- Benzedrine is the illegal form of a --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Of --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Of the --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Of like an upper or a something, which gives you energy, kind of. But I -- my doctor prescribed what was called Dexamol, or Dexamol, or something like that, which is a -- is the prescriptive form of the drug.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. And you said you started drinking about 15.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What led you to start drinking?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think -- well, there was just -- because things were just falling apart in my home.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I felt just -- I didn't know where, you know, where my future was going to go or what was going to happen. I didn't have any real, I didn't have any really strong ideas of where I was going, or what I wanted to do, or with school or where it would all end up. So it would just seem like the more -- I started drinking a little bit, the friends that I had we were, you know, we'd drink. We would see our parents drink, too, you know, it was kind of the acceptable thing that people did. My mother drank mostly to, you know, I think to fall asleep.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So I mean, so were you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And cry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Were you drinking for pleasure or were you drinking -- I know you had just said you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Sometimes I drank to -- I drank to be sociable, if I went somewhere. Actually, it was available even with the boy I was dating, which was high school. But we would go to others who had, at that time, at that time, the Vietnam War, I had friends who were Marines. And we would go to parties. And they were getting ready to ship out. And we would drink.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And they had, they had someone older than they were to go get the liquor, because it was 21. And they were 17 and 18, going to Pendleton and going out to Vietnam.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And the marijuana what'd the marijuana -- when'd the marijuana start?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My sister was the first person to introduce me to marijuana.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. What age were you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was probably 16, 15, 16, around that time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So this is when you had -- was that before or after you moved to Alabama? Was that when you came back with your mom?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I think, yes, probably after. I was -- it's hard sometimes to figure out exactly when that --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I know I drank.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But I drank, you know, when I was probably 15, before I left for Alabama.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. So the marijuana, about how often were you smoking marijuana?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not really in the house. If I was with my sister somewhere --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- I would smoke it. And I smoked some, again, with the Marines and my friend, Jack.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Anything else other than the -- was it the Benzedrine?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I've took some, what would be considered downers. They were --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Excuse me, reds or I don't know the -- Seconal. That's what the name of it is.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And is that -- and how were you introduced to those?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My sister --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yeah.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- and her boyfriends, and whoever, when I was around my sister.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So was your sister living -- when you came back from Alabama with your mom, was she living -- I know she was already in California; correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did she move in with you or did she live at separate residence?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: She did often. She'd come and live and then she went. When we came back, my sister was pregnant again. She had one son and then she was pregnant, now again, when we came back from Alabama. And she was with us for a while until she had the baby.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And maybe I missed it. And I'm going to ask you again. So I'm wondering, I know you had saw, as a younger child, you know, the division that was created by your sister's drug abuse and her behavior. And you fast forward to around the age of 16, when, you know, you're back in the same area with her. And it appears that that's when, kind of like, your drug abuse starts, really. I'm wondering, knowing the past and what it had done to the family. Why would, why would you get involved in the drugs?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't believe, at the time, when I was -- my sister -- with my sister, and with the people and the friends that I had, and everything, I, certainly, didn't see it as being -- I don't think I knew where it would go. I had no relationship to how drug abuse really plays out. I didn't really know. My sister and my relationship was -- in my home, because my mother and father were falling apart. And they had very -- so that I was really not a part of it, I would go to my sister, who would try to explain to me what was going on, not only that. She explained to me pretty much -- I could ask her anything, like, you know, I mean I would ask her what my period was. I could -- I had a relationship with my sister I didn't have really with my mother or father. And so, with my sister, I -- it was, it was a rather love/hate relationship. I mean, at times we were at odds with each other. And other times, she would be the person I would go to, because she seemed to have -- she seemed to know what was going on. She was the one that was telling me, didn't you know dad's having an affair? Didn't you, you know -- don't you know mother is falling apart? Don't you know -- my sister would be pointing it out, because she was seven years older than I was. So she had a little different basis. So you know, to -- of understanding. And I didn't see, I really did not see any -- I did not see what drugs can do. There is no way I, at that time, saw how any of this was, you know, something -- they really didn't even have Just Say No commercials on TV at that point, in the fifties.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But in a way, you, I mean --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It just wasn't, you know, --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But in a way, you did. I mean, you were exposed to -- I mean, you did see what drugs can kind of do, because when you talked about how, like I said, your sister's drug abuse kind of created this wedge between your family; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, that started before she used drugs. I mean, that was even when we were little. There was -- when she was very -- when she was -- from the first time, you know what I mean, I can remember my sister and I, because it was this issue of my dad and my mom, and who loved who. I don't really know how that -- like I said, and she ran away when she was -- when she was really little she ran a couple of times. There was always a problem with my sister. She was just the, kind of the pivotal point in our family that, I think, in a way, she was almost, like a scapegoat. It gave my family a -- it gave, I think my father, a way out of the marriage.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: To be honest.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So the problem is with your sister. It wasn't the drug abuse that led to the division is what you're saying?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. No. It was, it was from the time she was small. She just felt she was somehow unloved. And that my father was the one that was creating that and that she didn't have a father. She asked to leave and go to her other family. She, you know, she had other family. So there was just always that -- the drugs are what she eventually did after she got married and had her first child.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And how old was she about then?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Fifteen.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: She was 15.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. She married at about 15, 16 and had a, and had a son immediately.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, she left her husband.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Commissioner, --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- your mic is very one-directional.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Is it?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Can you turn? Will it be easier?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I saw the tape on it. I thought it would be --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: There.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Eventually, reading on the record, eventually you move in with your sister; correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And when do you do that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I came after -- when I was in Alabama and I was having -- I was in college. I was in Spring Hill, a friend that I had made from University High School, came to Alabama and she had -- at that time, actually, she brought some LSD with her, because we had used LSD together, before I -- in University High School. And I -- so, when she came and we talked I realized I just don't want to move -- I just don't want to move, you know, I just don't want to stay in Alabama. I don't feel right here. I never quite felt -- definitely never fit in in Alabama. I never felt -- I didn't have any friends. I didn't, I didn't seem to make any real well there. It was a very, it was a very different environment --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- than Los Angeles.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you moved back --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- in the sixties. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you moved back. So is this the same time you moved -- you come back with your mother?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I came back with my mother once and then we went back to Alabama.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Got it.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, when I went to, when I went to college and then my mother stayed this time. And I came back and lived with Charlene.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So Alabama --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: At the beach.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- did you have other relatives in Alabama that --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I have, I have my cousin, and my Aunt Garn (phonetic), and me, and I had, I had relatives. And that's why my mother wanted to go there, because it was her sister, who she was the closest. That was her closest sister to her.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So she wanted someone that she felt good with. So we moved to Alabama.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. Okay. So you come back around, you're what, about 19 at the time when you move in with your sister?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. About 18, 19.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So is that -- was that immediately when you came back to California you moved right in with her?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Or did you stay --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I came -- yeah, I came out and went with Charlene. And she was living at --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. What happened to your friend?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: El Porto, Manhattan.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did she live in some other area?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. She lived up in the Hills. Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. And what was that like when you moved in with Charlene at 19?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, Charlene was still using drugs, which I didn't know, you know. Because she used off and on. Sometimes she would quit. But she was using drugs. She had her son living with her, at the time. And there were problems with her son. Her daughter had already been gone and adopted. And she was, she was working. But she was, she was just having a lot of problems, too. It was addiction, you know. She had to supply --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- her with addiction -- with heroin.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So did you find out she was having these problems right when you moved in? Did you know about she was having problems before you moved in with her?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. No. When I moved in, I hadn't been really in touch with her that much prior to moving in with her when I came out from Alabama.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So how long after moving in with her did you realize that, hey, you know, she's still having a lot of problems.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, pretty immediately.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You did.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But you know, and but I tried to work it out the best I could. I had -- I got a job. And she had a job. And we, and we both worked. And eventually, though, she was at one of her times when she was really very sad. And she tried to take her life. She slit her wrists and -- in the bathroom there. And I found her. And we took care of that. And she just was really, you know, she was just really, really sad at that point, too. But I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think, you know, and she was an addict, but she, also, knew that life just wasn't what she wanted, either. The addiction was, also, making her, you know, really sad about the life she was living.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. So what were your plans, though? I mean, did you have goals or was your plan just -- you were just going to live with our sister until something happened?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I didn't, I didn't really have -- I had got a job at the Insurance Company of North America in Los Angeles and went to work. And I really had no real plans of where to go after that. I mean, it just was -- it was just a day to day thing, you know, going to work every day and coming back and trying to see that we did the best we could with in -- you know, pay the rent, you know, get some food on the table. And just go on from there. I didn't have any plans --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- outside of that, at that point.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And you were doing drugs, at that time, as well? I know you had said that your friend had come and you did LSD in Alabama.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't -- with my sister, when I was living with my sister, I probably -- I drank a little and I used marijuana. That was probably used there, because I -- at the most. I never used heroin.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I mean, it -- I'm not even sure why, but I didn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. So and it's -- at the time when you're living with your sister you're introduced to Charlie Manson; correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. My sister had a friend that was living down the beach from us. And he had, he had done time with Manson in TI. And he had --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: TI being Terminal Island.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Terminal Island. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I guess, you know, this was his good friend. And he was there. And my sister said, you know, she came down and said, oh, there's this guy, he's playing guitar. Why don't you come and meet him? And I did. So I went down to Billy's, Billy's home.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did you know -- it sounds like -- so did you know about -- you mentioned that he had done time at Terminal Island. Was that part of your discussion with your sister? Or did you find that out from him after meeting him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Actually, I found that out from Billy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: From your sister's friend, Billy?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Yeah. Billy Green.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Before meeting him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I -- when I -- after meeting -- I met Manson, but then I had a discussion with Billy. He was just a friend, too. I mean, he was -- and then, and he said how they had met when I met him and Manson. They -- he introduced himself, you know, introduced --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Do I need to change it?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: No. It's --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: As a friend, they had done time, and, you know, that kind of thing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. Okay. And I don't want to step into your -- I'm going to --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Oh, no. You don't need to change it. It's just you like sitting on the right. So I'm just moving the mic forward.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Because you're focusing on her, so I'm moving it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So how did, how did you feel when -- is -- when -- because, you know, eventually, as the record shows, and, of course, your testimony eventually you developed this relationship with him. But initially when you find out that, you know, he had -- he was a parolee or he had done time at Terminal Island, what did you think about that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I was -- I really liked -- Billy Green was a friend of ours and he had done time with him. And I didn't really think anything about it. My sister had done a couple of times in county jail. So it just didn't -- unfortunately, it didn't raise any red flags, which it should have.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: It was kind of your way of life, would you say? I mean, I know you had boyfriends prior to; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, I had -- yes, I had a couple guys. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yes. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And any of them ever done time, county time, prison time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But one -- one of the guys that I, that I knew was going to, going to go to prison for drugs. My sister had a boyfriend that was in, was in prison for drugs.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You said your sister did.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But I'm asking --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So I mean, so I knew about people --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But I'm asking about you.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- being in prison, is what I'm saying. I knew that she had a relationship with someone that had -- he was in prison, at the time, that I was living with her. And so, you know, I -- it was something that was mentioned, you know, and people had done it and it didn't raise any flags, because I didn't, I didn't know anyone then that was -- and there were other people around us, too, and they had never been to prison. So it was just, you know, --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: How about family members? Any of your other family members ever done time in prison or county time, uncles, aunts?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Not that I know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Cousins? No one?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But we had a lot of alcoholics, but they didn't -- they ended up in the hospitals, but not in prisons.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. So the only -- and I'm just kind of clarifying. So the only, the only people that you really knew had done time in jail or prison, were people associated with your sister?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. My sister had some other friends that were there that were, also, had never been in prison.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we had a group of -- she had a group of friends around her that some, you know -- all I know is Billy was the only one, I think, that probably had --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. What did Billy --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- done time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What did Billy do time for?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm not sure. I have no idea.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't. All I knew was that he had said he had done time with Manson.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Did Billy tell you what Charlie Manson had done time for?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. He did not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And it didn't matter to you, either, at the time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: At the time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Because I didn't really -- I don't think I ever thought about that. I just figure people are as they appear to me at that moment. I didn't, you know, I wasn't trying to do a -- trying to get -- find any great, you know, background on him or anything like that. When I just met him, I just met him. He was playing music. And my sister invited him back to stay with us.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And so you didn't really much about then, is what you're saying? His history, when you first met him --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I knew nothing about him, no. All I knew is that he was a friend of Billy, who I did like.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Who was a friend of the -- of my sister and myself.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. When's the first time you had sexual intercourse with him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably the second night that he stayed at our --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Second night.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- at our apartment.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My sister invited him to stay and he stayed for about three days.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you -- the second night that he stayed at your apartment. Is that the second night -- did you -- had you met him the day before, or did he come back with you -- when you -- the first day you met him, did he come back to stay with you at your apartment?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. My sister invited him to stay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So the second day of knowing him --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- is when you had sexual intercourse with him. Okay. Before I get into the relationship. I know you probably had some questions.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Thank you very much, Commissioner. I just need a few clarifications. When you speak to the Commissioner about moving to Alabama. That was around 15?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When your parents divorced?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. About 15 or 16.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And how long were you there before you moved back to California?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was probably about six months, you know, close to a year.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And you move back to California. So you were still in, what, about a sophomore in high school?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: When I, when -- well, I was -- yeah, sophomore I moved -- God, because there's only three years. I was -- I did probably a year at -- I was, like, 15 maybe 16 when we left for Alabama. So I did my second, probably my second year and then graduated when we came back out. So I did for about a year at Theodore High School. And then, I -- we returned to Los Angeles where I went to University High School and graduated there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So it was -- and I had gone to Westchester High School originally. And we left from there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So it was like probably, pretty much, almost like a year, a year, a year. But --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- you know, some other time is involved, because of the summers.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And when was the first time you tried LSD?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: At University High School when I was --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: University.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, about 18 -- 17, 18. When I was --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But I thought, I thought you, also, did LSD when you were in Alabama?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. But that's when I was going to college. I went back to Alabama after University High School.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Back to Alabama.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: For college.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was in Alabama twice. So I went one year high school and then out here, graduated high school. Then, went back to Alabama for college.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And why did you try LSD?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, when I -- the people that -- the girlfriend and the friends that I had developed at University High School, the few people that I knew that was what they were -- that's kind of what they were into. And at the time, we took it, it wasn't even illegal.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: It wasn't illegal?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. And did you like the first experience?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was just really strange and so I did it once there with this kid that I knew there and my friend. And we tried it. And it just seemed new, and unusual, and different.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It seemed okay. You know, I just -- it was such a strange experience. It was so different from anything --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, what --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- else I'd ever taken.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What was the experience?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Just you saw colors and things seemed more vibrant and we were, we were just laughing a lot. I don't, I don't know. I wouldn't have known the dose, or what we took, or how much or whatever at that point. It was the first time I'd ever took it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so it just seemed -- it just seemed harmless.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So I'm going to go back to my original question. Did you enjoy the LSD experience the first time? Did you like it?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes and no, because, again, it was an odd experience. It was just, at the time, it was, it was, you know, we did it and it seemed kind of fun and that. And then, that was, that -- it was just a very unusual drug.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. And then, and then you told the Commissioner that Alabama was a different environment. What did you mean by that? How was it different than LA?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It -- when I went back to Alabama in sixties, it was totally segregated.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And there were black and white water fountains. And there were -- if you get on the bus -- there was just -- it was a very strange world, because it was absolutely segregated. When I went to counters I was told I couldn't sit there or that I had to go to the back, because that was not a place where white people sat. I was told by my uncle when you walk down the street you don't step -- you don't ever step off the curb for a black person.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was, it was a world --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And that --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- I did not understand at all. And I felt so out of place. I didn't, I really didn't -- it was -- I was called a Yankee -- everywhere I went I was called a Yankee, because, for some reason, if you don't have a southern sound to your voice, every time I went anywhere, everyone would call me a Yankee. It was a really odd environment at that time. And there were marches. And my uncle was rather violent. And he had a gun and said he wanted to go stop those marches. Every -- I came from Los Angeles. And in Los Angeles I had Hispanic friends. And I was brought up that, although there were -- you know, there was very much division even in Westchester, there wasn't -- there weren't a lot of black families there, if any. The bottom line is I was -- I did know, at our church and stuff, there were blacks, whites, brown people. It was, it was integrated here. And for -- at 15 and 16 years old, when I went to Alabama I really felt completely and utterly out of control, out of, out of step. I didn't know what I was supposed to do. And all my answers were wrong to my uncle, my aunt, the way I lived, the way I saw things. And I just I wanted out of there. I wanted out of there so badly.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So why --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was odd.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When you moved back was -- were you able to move back to your parents'? Was that an option?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. My father didn't want me -- my father had an apartment, but it was just a one bedroom. And he never really asked me to go back and live with him.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Because I just found it curious why you would go back to a sister that you knew had been a drug addict all her life.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I really just didn't know where else to go.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't want to stay around Alabama. We went back there again. I tried college. It was a Jesuit college that had opened up to women for the first time. When I went in they wanted women to go to that college, so they could change it around. So I went and I tried that. And that didn't work, either. Again, and Alabama had changed some by that time, but not much. And again, it was just an odd place. My mother, my mother felt good, because she was with family. I felt like I didn't know where to go.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, I was curious whether your desire to do drugs had anything to do with that decision to go back to your sister?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't -- I don't know. I just wanted to get out of -- it just -- I never felt good in my own skin. I never felt that I had a place. I didn't feel that I had really anyone to go to and I didn't have any money that was mine. I didn't know where to go. My sister felt like the safest place. So I wanted to go -- so I went there. It was the only real option I had. And --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- so I went.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- was the fact that being with your sister -- because, I mean, from what I'm understanding, it seems like that's a safe place to use drugs. Did that have anything to do with your decision to go back to her?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. No. Drugs had nothing to do with why I went back to sister's. It was just the only -- she was the only person I knew that would -- I could go to in California.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let me ask you this just for clarification, because the Commissioner asked you about living with your father. And you said that, no, you couldn't go there. He only had a one bedroom. He didn't want you there. Was there ever an attempt by you to -- or did you ever ask him, hey, can I come stay with you? And he, and he rejected you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I stayed once, I think, for like a week or so with him. But I just -- he really, he really made it -- excuse me, clear that he didn't really want, you know, that this wasn't going to work out, is what I can say.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And then --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Oh, go ahead.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Thank you. And then, my last question is, you start the hearing with the Commissioner talking a lot about how your sister is this. Your sister is that. Your sister is an addict. Your sister is this. But I'm, also, seeing a woman who is very much like the sister. You kind of became an addict pretty quick, too? No?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. And it's probably because she was maybe -- she was my role model, in a sense, because she's the one that I seemed to know and I would relate to, because she was the only person in my family that would really relate with me, in whatever sense that was.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I mean --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So she was --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But how does a -- how did you go from trying to be the good girl, laying low, not causing trouble, to just becoming the same as your sister, basically?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I don't think I saw, you know what I mean, I went -- I felt like I was still going to work. I wasn't -- I didn't have like an addiction that I had to go make money to take care of or anything. It was never -- I never was really spending money for anything like drugs. And as far as having, you know, some wine or something that my sister had the house, it was never -- I wasn't -- I never became really like, per se an alcoholic. I don't think. I never went through withdrawals when I quit or I would drink once in a while. But I didn't -- I wasn't -- I used drugs, because that's kind of what we had in the house.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: May I ask, between 15 and 19, how much drugs were you abusing?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I really -- and at 15, at little bit, I drank. I didn't -- it wasn't until I was probably 17 or 18 when I, when I, when I started to, you know, when I, when I was more experimenting with more drugs and alcohol. I would drink, if I went to a party, with my friends, so I could dance and feel, you know, like acceptable, and feel fun, and not feel all, you know, like I don't fit in or I don't, you know, I'm not good enough. So I'd drink. But then I wouldn't drink again. You know, it was like if it was -- if I went to a party and that's what everybody was doing, that's what I would do. If I -- I wasn't like trying to, you know, drink a lot in the house on my own. But when I started to -- when I got with my sister, I would, you know, it became something more common when I lived with her.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You said you started experimenting more drugs when you were 17 and 18?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Were you in Alabama --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I mean, I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- or in California at this point?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, I didn't use any drugs in Alabama except the one time when I was in college -- at the college. I didn't when I was in high school in Alabama. I used nothing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So then, when you were 17, 18, then you were living with your parents.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not my parents, but my mother when I was in Alabama. But when I came out from Alabama I lived with my sister and that's where I used the drugs.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I thought you moved in with your sister when you were 19?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: From Alabama. I came back from Alabama from college.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So I'm just trying to nail down the facts here.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When you were 17 or 18 and you said you were experimenting more drugs were you with your sister or with one of your parents?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, at that time, she was in and out of the home. I was living in California. It's -- trying to break it up between California and Alabama. In California -- and when I was, like, 15 or 16, I started using -- I started drinking some. I drank when I was dating Jack (phonetic), and we went to parties, and whatever. And I -- and my friends that I was with, at that time, from 15 to 16, probably to 16- 1/2, maybe even close to 17, I'm not quite sure. But as long as I was in California, I was drinking and I was using, like, marijuana. That's when I was, like I said, I was dating a guy named Jack. And I was -- and we -- most of the parties were with a lot of Marines. And at that time, we were using liquor and marijuana at those particular times when we'd get together and we'd gather at parties.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I, also, used some Benzedrine.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It kept me thin.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did it do anything else for you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not really. It helped me feel like I was thin, because I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- had been overweight.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I understand that you started drinking around 15 or 16.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm more interested in harder drugs now.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So you said --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm interested in harder drugs.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And you said you're experimenting more and more of the drugs around 17, 18.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So if you weren't in Alabama --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- in Alabama, you were, obviously, here then.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was at University High School. And that was when I was living in LA again, I was in West LA and at University High School.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Who were you living with at that point?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My mom.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So she moved back out here with you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So you were already abusing hard drugs then before you even moved into your sister's place at 19?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I had tried LSD there and I was using marijuana. And -- yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That was in -- that was in high school.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So how much drugs were you using from 17 to 19? I'm giving you a period of time, before you move in with your sister at 19, I just want to know how much drugs are we talking about?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: All right. When I was in -- when I was at University High School in Los Angeles, I used LSD once. And then, I used marijuana, while I was there. And I, and I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- would use some -- and drinking. And that's while I was in Los Angeles, University High School. And during that period of time.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So before you moved in with your sister at age 19, how many times have you been using LSD?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Twice, because when I was in Alabama, prior to going to see my sister, a friend came out. That was when a friend of mine came out to Alabama and brought --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- a vile of LSD.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So we're only talking a couple of times --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- before you move into your sister's place.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. With LSD. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. I have nothing more, at this point, Commissioner. I'm all caught up.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. And I, and I, and I know what we have on the record as far as your arrest history. But between those ages 17 and 19, did you ever commit any crimes?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No. Okay. Other than the illegal drug use?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So getting back to your, getting back to your social history. So you meet Charlie Manson. So how long did you stay at your sister's place with him before you, eventually, left with him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think it was three days.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Three days. Okay. So --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm sorry, Commissioner, did she say that she lived with the -- moved in with the sister and then three days later she moved out?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I lived with my sister --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: She had been --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- for nearly a year and then I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Oh, okay. She -- oh, she meant when she met --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- Mr. Manson for three days.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: It was three days.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Got it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. Okay. And what was your reasoning -- I'm going back to that, I might be beating a dead horse, though. But what was your reasoning for staying with your sister after you saw the drug use, the emotional problems she was having, the problems she had with her child? What was your reasoning for staying?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I think some of it was to stay -- because I kind of watched Ronny, who was her son.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I had a job, but I didn't have enough money to really -- it was just a starting job. And it wasn't paying very much. So I didn't really have any options to move out yet, I mean, I may -- you know, I'm sure maybe if I made more money, maybe I would have, you know, considered getting another place. But we were sharing rent.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So and, like I said, I was -- her son had some issues with fire and burning things up. So you had to be very careful to not allow him to have any matches around him. And so, I, you know, I was kind of a, you know, I kind of watched him, you know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I mean, you kind of watched him or you did watch him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I did when I could. When I, you know, I would try to, you know, I would interact with him. I loved him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So did you, did you find yourself there because you were there to kind of help your sister?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I mean, I think --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I know you talked about the rent and all, but --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- I mean, were you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I mean, I -- you know, we were --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- there to, or --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I mean, you know, I -- like I said, I had a very odd -- a very strange relationship with my sister. We were, you know, it was, it was sometimes, you know, sometimes loud, sometimes not. I loved her.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That was going to be my next question.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- we worked, you know, we worked -- tried to work it out as best we could. I tried to help her, I could. You know, we just shared the duties, the housekeeping, the -- you know, we tried to make it work. She just happened to be an active addict. And it created problems, plus, like I said, her son had a lot of emotional issues, too. And then, eventually, when my sister -- it just started getting more out of control, while I was there, and I realized that. And I didn't -- and when she finally -- when she tried to take her life, I really felt that I didn't know, at that point, what I was supposed to do or how to handle it, because she was just -- became like an emotional, you know, because you're an emotional wreck if you're slicing your wrists. So you know, I did what I could there. And so, I felt in a way, like I guess I should be doing something. But I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't know how to make this work. I, you know, -- it's this trying to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. And I never really felt like I knew, I felt over my head, you know. I was, I was in over my head. And I didn't seem to know where to, you know, where to go from there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. So when you meet and you get together with Charlie Manson. And what does he, what does he tell you? I mean, how does he get you to go along with him, to leave with him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I think that what he did is he used what was the utmost obvious thing, is that he said, you know, I can see that you're not, you're not happy. That your sister is out of control. That she's, you know, that she's an addict. That, you know, you have problems that you're, you know, you're basically in over your head. He started saying things to me that I thought, gee, you know, this is the first person ever that seemed to see what was going on and name it. And put a name to it. And so, being, you know, immature and not knowing how to handle the situation I was in, it sounded like he knew what he was doing. He was, you know, he was the adult in this. He was 33. I was 19. And he seemed to know what he was saying. He was so, so self-assured, so, you know, -- he just knew. And what he would say seemed true to me. That was, that was the biggest catch of all. I mean, he said you're unhappy. Of course I was. I mean, it didn't take a, it didn't take a brilliant mind to say that, but no one else had ever said it. You know, no one said, gee, is there something, you know, -- why don't you just leave with me? Why don't you just give this all up and try something else? Why don't you just come away for a while, you know, and try something else, get away from this, because you -- basically, you're in over your head. And gee, you know, you're, you know, you're beautiful to me. I love you. You know, it was all this. It's everything that I ever wanted to hear someone say, because I just didn't know. I felt totally in over my head by the time I met him. And he seemed like this is a, this is a way out, because I didn't see any other way out.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So what was your plan?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so I said, I said, why not? What's it going to hurt just to leave? Just to leave it all behind, start something new, try something, and, gee, what a wonderful guy. You know, he seems to really get me. He seems to know who I am. So and, you know, wow, you know, maybe this is, this is the one. Maybe he's the one I can eventually settle down with. Maybe he's the one I can eventually marry. Maybe he's the one. And so, I was like just this immediate, like, fall in love with, you know, which was basically, probably fall in lust with. But the reality was that's what he offered, was a way out, which, because I didn't' seem to find -- seem to know myself how to change the situation I was in, he seemed like that was a good idea.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So what was the plan?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Just to go on the road. Just to go on the road with him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And was there a destination or are you just going to just travel the world or what?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. He had a lot of destinations. First off, he said he was going to go try to find his mother.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Then, he said that he had to go -- he was going to try, since he played guitar, he was going to try to make music and get recorded. He said that he was going to -- he had to go visit his parole officer in Washington, which we did. He, you know, he had all these ideas of what he was going to do. And prior to that, but prior to even leaving with Manson, I talked to Billy Green and he had said, oh, well, Manson and I, we used to plan on getting a bus and just traveling the United States with some gals and have a good time. Because I asked him, before I left, I said should I do this? He said yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: May I ask her if she was doing any drugs with Manson at this time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Not in those three days?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I don't believe we did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. So I mean, did Manson use a lot of drugs when you met him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So he wasn't abusing LSD when you met him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. That's an interesting question. No. I was just thinking about that. I mean, no, --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What about other kinds of drugs --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- when I first.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- was he abusing drugs?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Marijuana. I mean, we had marijuana and, you know, got -- we, you know, it was just gradual. As we'd go meet people, we'd go to from, you know, from marijuana, to hashish, to, you know, to -- then to, then to LSD.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So nothing hard in the beginning.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So when did LSD --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let me, let me get into --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm sorry. Sorry about that. Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: We'll get to that. Okay. So you hit, so you hit the road. Okay. And -- so where -- so and you said you were going to go visit the parole officer. You were going to look for his mom.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: He wants to get this recording going. And I know you said you did meet with -- you did go up to Washington and see the parole officer.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. We did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did those other things happen? Did he ever meet his mom?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. It was a lie. I mean, I found that out, but not then. But I'd known a lot of it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So what part of the trip, during the trip did you finally realize, hey, this guy isn't -- basically, the plan isn't going along like he said.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, things started changing immediately, because which I didn't know is that he had another gal, Lyn Fromme that was waiting for him at a place in LA. And then, he had someone up north, Mary Brunner --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- and so, he decided, you know, well, you know, to bring them along. And so, and we started first. We were around LA for a while before we went anywhere. He had friends there and we would stay at their place. And it all seemed, you know, very innocent at first. I mean, it just was, it was just we started --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- and eventually it became the two other women and myself.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we started traveling.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So that's when -- so --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And that's when we went up to see the -- up towards Washington. We started moving up the coast of Los -- from Los Angeles up towards Washington.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So on the way up you stop in LA and you pick up the women -- or one woman. And in another area you pick up another woman. And you go to Washington. So at that point, do you realize, wow, maybe he's not the one. Maybe I'm not, because now --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- he has these two other women with us.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- I mean, that sounds -- let me, let me, let me see if I can get this out. I mean, that sounds like that's a huge red flag; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Correct.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Because your initial intent was this guy is going to be he and I forever. We're going to have our relationship, you know, be married and live happily ever after, but very shortly after you get on the road, he picks up these two women. What are your thoughts? Are your thoughts, okay, well, --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, maybe this --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- plans change and I'm --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. Maybe this is not a good idea. And yet, it seemed like, especially those - - like when I first met Lyn, she was just a really, really nice person, very similar to myself. And she, too, was just wanting to, you know, just to enjoy just traveling and just going somewhere and trying something different. Because so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So what did he tell you about these women?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, he just said that he had found Lyn. And then, Lyn just spoke for herself. And you know, and she just said that, you know, she had, I think, like finished high school and thought she'd be -- wanted to do this instead of go to college, you know, at this point. And travel with -- so, you know, why not? And there was, I mean, every single thing as we began became a red flag. But somehow I just kept thinking that maybe it would turn around, because it wasn't, it wasn't -- it didn't show itself immediate. But it showed -- things started showing itself little by little, because he was very definitely -- he had his ideas and we could not, basically, superimpose our ideas on what he -- or where he was going to go. In other words, I couldn't say, gee, you know, let's go visit my friend.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was all moving towards his direction. And so what actually began to happen was that, you know, I befriended Lyn and Mary. And we became very close. So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yeah, but this is what --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: This is what I'm having a hard time with.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Initially, you say your mindset was, you know, this guy tells me he loves me.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I think he's the one. I think he's the one I can settle down with. You get on the road and almost immediately he picks up these other two women. And I understand, you know, the sixties, free love, and all that other stuff was going on back then. But you were focused on this is, this is my man.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: This is going to be my man forever. And then, and maybe I didn't hear it. Maybe I didn't ask the question right, but he picks up these two women and now you say, well, there's other women in the picture. And then -- it wasn't -- it doesn't appear that it was a big concern to you. You say, well, I just befriended Lyn.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. But it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And I'm wondering why that wasn't a big concern.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, it was and it wasn't, because, at times, you know, when Manson would take me aside, he would tell me, you know, you're the only one. I love you the most. He would, he would go on about, you know, how he, you know, -- how, you know, --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did you ever --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- I was so important --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So did you ever say, well, get rid of these two women, if I'm the only one?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I don't -- no, because he -- I didn't think he would listen to me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I mean, he seemed to have a way of just making it all seem like it was all going to fit together and it was all fine. But you're still well-loved and you're still, you know, and that -- and I just kept thinking some way or another that -- because he would say it, you know, so somehow I was still believing some of the things that, you know, believed what he was saying.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. You had a question about the drugs.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, were you under the influence, at this time, when you made the decision that it's going to be okay or you were of sound mind?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, we were, we were using drugs by then. Once we got on the road we used marijuana, like I said, and hashish. And we, you know, what we really never did was drink. We never, we never had alcohol. And little -- and he was introducing LSD.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So but you knew what was going on, at this point; right? You weren't totally gone yet?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I knew.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So when did he start introducing LSD?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Pretty much when we got on the road and we started visiting people. It was -- seemed to be kind of the choice of drug at that time. It was becoming very prevalent in Los Angeles and up towards San Francisco.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So you told the clinician about traveling for about nine months with just the four of you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So when, in those nine months, did LSD become a common usage, every day?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: More towards the end. I mean, it was gradual, like everything else. Everything just kept getting more and more introduced. I -- it was something that he found as a way of taking control of the situation, because it just -- LSD has a way of -- under a hallucinogen -- under hallucinogen someone can kind of control the -- what they call trip. They can take control of what's going on and kind of -- it kind of gels around them. And he did that very well, became like a --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What do you mean?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- conductor, master of, you know, master of illusion.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Meaning you were suggestive to -- you were susceptible to suggestions when you're under the influence of LSD?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, you see things that definitely not real. You -- it's --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Well, are you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It takes you outside of -- out of your -- out of a normal perception. Your perceptions are altered.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. I just want to know when you're under the influence of LSD were you more easily susceptible to suggestions by someone, like Manson?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Absolutely, I think. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's a, it's a very -- it's hard to -- the drug, itself, just lends itself to the -- to altered, it's like they call altered states. You -- that what you see, you know, what I see before me right now is not what I would see if I was -- if I had LSD in my system.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So why --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why would you do LSD if that's the kind of vulnerability you're exposing yourself to?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because it just seemed like, at that time, it was fun. I mean, sometimes you take it was, it was a drug that I enjoyed taking for a while.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't see it as being -- as what it can be used for. I didn't see -- I, certainly, didn't see the error in taking the things. I didn't, I didn't understand then, you know, any more than I understood what alcohol did completely to my family or heroin did to my sister. I didn't have an understanding of drugs, like I definitely understand them now.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And how they play out in your life.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And what they do to you.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And then, my last question is toward the end of the nine months, you said that's when LSD was introduced more and more.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: As we traveled the road we used it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: How often are we talking about?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, we used LSD probably a couple of times a week.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, eventually we used it quite often. But that we -- maybe twice week. And whatever else was, and whatever else was available. Because we had -- there was other drugs like mescaline, psilocybin. It was all that kind of hallucinogens that were very prevalent, especially in San Francisco, in Haight at that time.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm just trying to follow the progression so I know.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I understand that. And I'm trying to --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Commissioner.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- think with you on that -- on how that went. It definitely was progressive. And depending on the person that we met or stay with, whether they -- what kind of drugs they had in their home, what they were using. You know, so what they had available. And at that time, LSD was becoming a big --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was a to-do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: At this time, I'd like to take a short break.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Something --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: The time is approximately 10:25 a.m.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: We're back on record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Time is approximately 10:40 a.m. All the same parties that were present prior to the break are back in the room at this time. And Commissioner, I know you had a question.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Thank you, Commissioner. I neglected to ask, when you told the Commissioner that you were hoping things would be better. What exactly were you hoping would be better? When he asked you why'd you hung in there, when he's got girls to the north, girls to the south? What would be better in your mind?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, that somehow, you know, it would eventually just end up being me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why would you think that when he's running all over the place with a whole bunch of people?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, because originally he wasn't. I mean, when we started it was us together for a few days, going on the road. Then, it was Lyn. And she came. And then, and then, it was Mary. But it was just three of us for quite a while. And so, there was always that, which I was thinking, in my head, would just be the possibility that it would be, you know, would be him and I. And as I said, once in a while he would pull me aside and say, you know, --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we would be alone together. So it would be, you know, like, oh, this is a relationship.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When did Lyn come into the picture? Are we talking weeks or months later?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. It was probably a few days.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Oh, okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Three or four days.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And when did Mary come into the picture?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Again, probably three or four days later, because she was -- they were both in different places.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So we're talking --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: One was up north.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So we're talking in a couple of --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So it took a while to get up there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- weeks, there are other women coming into his life already?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Just the two. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, it was just the three of us for a long time.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And were they lovers? Manson and Lyn and Mary?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So then, that's why I am going back to my initial question. I mean, he has lovers on the side. So why would you think that one day it was just you and him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I did. It was stupid. It was naïve and foolish.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But yes, I did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Nothing more, Commissioner.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So how soon, while you're traveling with the three, do you find out that, okay, the -- now everything has changed? And I know the record talks about, and you've talked about, in the past, you know, this philosophy that he had -- where he wanted to start a race war and whatnot. How soon does all that come into play?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That kind of philosophy ended up -- that was, like, a year or so later.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But he -- what he did do, is he had this idea that he was -- yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yes.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That he, you know, he was like -- he was looking to get some career in music.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So he was spending a lot of time trying to do that. But at the same time, he was, like, just kind of like -- when we first started out, it was just traveling around we were all, like, experimenting with, you know, the drugs, because, at that time, it really was still experimental. We were going -- we traveled up the Haight-Ashbury area.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And at that time, it was becoming -- it was, it was different time and place. It was all these people and there was -- and things were very communal. One of the things that I definitely saw was when we would go stay places, we would stay in places where a lot of people were living together. It had become -- communal living had kind of become catchphrase, communes. In the sixties there were different areas and places you would go. Up in -- up north they even had special names where there was a place. It was kind of like the pig farm. And there was this place. And there was that place. And these were all places that were like communes and they were very much for that. And people were living on the roads. It -- we found this --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So describe the commune for us. Describe that for us.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, it was just people lived together. I mean, groups of people, men, women and, as you said, this idea that was just all these ideas of free love, free drugs. There was -- it was just this kind of explosion of these different ideas. You know, it all was like you'd find it in the people that, you know, we would pick up on the roads. I mean, they started naming people, you know, hippies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know, it ended up gathering its own momentum in America, I guess. But it was mostly, you know, in -- I think in larger cities in America. But San Francisco was like a hub. And HaightAshbury, you know, all these, you know, like I said people gathering. Music was everywhere. Things were like free. You could go stay places. People would give you drugs for free. There was -- the place, like I said, the place we stayed there was lots of people. You could go just put your -- if you -- we had, eventually, had, say, like a -- oh, God, what is it called? The bedding -- if you had bedding, you could just go throw our bedding down on somebody's house and stay there for a day or two. And we stayed in different places in -- up in -- up there in San Francisco on Lion Street, on Haight Street. You know, there was just -- Cole Street. We had different apartments that he seemed to know people. We would stay there and there would be 20, 30 people in the place. It was -- and they were different --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But it was always just the four of you, though, staying at these different places.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Yes. For a while. Yeah. Because we did. And then, like I said, and we traveled up. Then, we traveled up north. We traveled, we traveled into the woods. We'd stay in the woods sometimes. We traveled up through Oregon up into Washington, where we, where we would meet with people he knew. These are all -- he seemed to have an array of people he knew, from his parole officer, to other people that he seemed to know. And we would always go wherever it is that he seemed to, he seemed to manage to navigate to different places and people.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Let me ask you this, so prior to your arrest for your commitment -- your life crimes, did you ever find out what he was in prison for at Terminal Island?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Somewhere along the line, yeah, he finally started saying that -- I mean, we started -- in conversation he would talk about the women that worked for him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And he would talk about how he beat them with coat hangers.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And how soon into your, we'll say your relationship with him, did you find this out?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: A while.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What's a while?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It may have -- some months, months later that he would -- we had started to come out in different ways. I hadn't -- I really didn't understand what a pimp is. I mean, I understand now that he was, you know, arrested for white slave trade, which is taking women across state lines to work for him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And that's one of the ways that I think he so well seemed to know how to work with us as far as women.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And having it -- and putting us together and finding common ground, and knowing how to do that, because that was actually one of his, one of this things. It was one of his professions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Was how to manage women and make them, you know, want to be around each other and work for him. And he definitely did that. I mean, at the end of the day, when I, when I look back at all of it, I mean, we were, we were used no different than any prostitute he ever used before. We were given men for sex.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So what did, what did you think when you, when you found out that he was in Terminal Island for, you know, pimping, white slavery? And now, you're sitting there with two other females; right, that he picks up right away.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. But I didn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: When you get on the road. So what were your thoughts? Were your thoughts I need to get out of this situation now? I --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, because he always explained himself. This isn't who he is, you know, this is, this is that, but not you, honey. You know, I mean that's part of how it -- how this plays out. It's always this is, this is who I was, but that's not who I am. And you know, you're different. And I care about you. And whatever it takes to make you think that this is not -- you're not going to be used for this. By the time you finally are, you know, or I was, then it was -- my mind was in a whole different place. I didn't -- I felt, I felt enmeshed, trapped, you know. I just -- that -- by the time it all starts, it's a little clearer and I'm being used in that way. You know, then it's -- at that point, for me, obviously, for myself, I felt trapped and didn't know how to get out of it. Because I did, at one time, you know, work for him in a whorehouse.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So that's where we were all going, but we didn't know it. You know, we didn't realize that we had a pimp who was always pimp, you know, who is a man who is going to use you, always, because that's what he does. I don't think any -- you know, no one saw that originally. Or, you know, I, certainly, wouldn't have said, yeah, oh, I want to volunteer for that, you know. It was all a gradual thing of -- and this information would come out months later, you know, at some other time where little pieces would come in. A lot of it I didn't get until I even got to court or, you know, and read that white slave trade. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't ever hear that until I've actually read it in paperwork and things as, you know, since.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But I did -- but he did talk about women working for him, at times. And I remember him talking about -- at one point he would say now he was using coat hangers on them, because that was one of his times where he wanted to make sure to let you know there could be repercussions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And you talked about by the time you really realized kind of who he was, and you felt, at that time, I mean, you were too enmeshed in it. You couldn't, you couldn't get out. You felt you couldn't get out.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Why did you have that feeling?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I had -- I felt like there was no place to go back to and no place to go forward to. It -- by that time, it was just -- it was that I didn't feel control of my own mind. But one of the problems is, is that even getting into this relationship with him, is that, is that I was someone who I had -- I just didn't feel like I had a foundation. I didn't trust myself. I had -- I didn't have any place -- I had -- I was someone that just had low self-esteem. I was immature emotionally. And I just wanted someone to give me some kind of purpose, some kind of stability, because I felt I hadn't had it in my life. So I looked for this guy for a relationship. And when he said this is the -- as much as I'm going to give you is this, but it comes with this. It comes with Lyn or it comes with Mary. I kept thinking, well, maybe, maybe it'll separate at some point. Maybe I'll still have an opportunity to have this turn to where I would be considered --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: May I ask --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- number one.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: May I ask her, Commissioner. When was the first time he pimped you out?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably about nine months, ten months, 11 months after, because we needed money. And we went to a friend of his who --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But by -- okay. So at that point, you were not too far gone; right? Would that be a fair statement?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't -- could you kind of rephrase that question? Because I'm --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I mean --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You just told the Commissioner by the time you were used, your mind was in a different place.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So if he's pimping you at nine, ten, 11 months, that's way before the murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So and you were only using LSD about twice a week; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So you knew what was going on at that point. That you are being pimped out.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes, in a way. I mean, I didn't see it as that. I didn't see it. As always, we were bringing money -- at that time, because of need, because we -- because and it -- because it all became different in my head in how I looked at what we were doing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. You're having sex with strangers for money. What do you mean you didn't see it that way? You were being pimped out as a prostitute.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So what do you mean you didn't see it that way?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I saw it as being what was needed at that point, because we were trying to survive.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And because we didn't --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: See, because needed a place to stay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You're being sold.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You're being sold. Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why? Why wouldn't you say to yourself, this is crossing the line?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because, at that point, that's what -- I didn't see it as that, because the way --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why not?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because he said, you know, this is -- I'm doing it for him and for us. And that this is, this is what -- this is -- this helps us survive here. And that's exactly -- and I started thinking, well, you know, sex, at this point, because around in -- at that point, sex was being -- was quite often used everywhere we went. And it wasn't just, it wasn't just for that which was a direct use of it for some money. We were in groups and communes where there was sex and it was communal.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Wait. Wait. Did you accept that as a part -- as just part of your lifestyle?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Some -- eventually, yes. I did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was, it was, it was a part of how we lived.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So you had no problem that he sold you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: To complete strangers?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not then, no. Not when I did it then. No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So what about the first time when he sold you? Did you have a problem then?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't, I didn't -- never saw it as that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So the answer is no.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Because I didn't see it in that context.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What is about this guy that you're willing to sell your body, ignore every, single red flag in the world. What is it about this guy that has such a -- that you're willing to do all that for? I don't, I don't get it.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And this is only ten, 11 months into the relationship.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. It was -- yeah, it was about ten or 11 months. But I think it's because in -- originally, when I met him, I saw him as some kind of a -- I saw him as my knight on a white horse. He was --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I understand that, ma'am. You --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- going to take me out of that. Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Hang on.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Well, she's answering your question, Commissioner.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. All right. I'm sorry.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm just trying to redirect her to my specific question.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I understand that you saw him as your knight in shining armor. And that he's telling you all the things that you needed to hear at that point. But my question, my question is -- but you're seeing all of these flags. Why did none of those flags enough to say no, he's wrong. I must leave.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, some of it is because as we started to travel, the situation changed. It changed drastically on the way that he -- that our relationship started to develop. Along the way, there was the presentation of -- well, the arbitrary nature of everything with him. I mean, he was -- he used fear. And he used violence to motivate --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- if what was happening -- well, what he wanted didn't turn out how he wanted it. In other words, as we would go places, he -- number one, wanted to develop a strong relationship with you, of what he called trust. And so, some of the things he would do was these, what he considered exercises in trust. Such as, when we were out in the woods, he had a habit of playing with knives, which he always had knives. And he played with them. He always used things in his hands. And he would flick knives. And he would throw knives, and hatchets, and whatever. So when we were out in the woods together, I have stood up at a tree and had him throw knives at me. It was the idea of developing this trusting relationship. He would -- if you didn't do that, then you were somehow humiliated or degraded. And he was very vocal, very cruel, and very mean. So things started getting to where, in my mind, there was this violence. There were threats involved. And then, there was the -- what -- he would always say that -- there's always something like the flowers, I'll give you flowers bull. To where all of a sudden then you're okay, you know, it's like, oh, you know. You're important that I love you. And what started happening is the relationship developed in a fear, and violent, and at the same time, I'm thinking maybe somehow if I stick it out, he will change, something will change. Something will get better. And that's -- and I kept utilizing that absolutely, which is -- it's stupid. But it's a tape, in my head, saying maybe something will change.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, you spoke to the clinician, you spoke to the clinician about him pulling your hair and getting violent.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You, also, mentioned about the knives. When was -- when did -- was the first time he introduced violence into the relationship?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, the -- that strong, vocal, say the first vocal, strong, just that told you that told you that there was something more than this nice guy, probably happened within, God, within a few days, within a week. It's that first sign when someone kind of comes out, because something happened that he didn't like. And in doing so, then comes the response, which is very aggressive, you know. And it kind of shocks you, but it's like, oh, well, that -- you know, but then it doesn't happen again for a while.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so, it started at the very simplest of, you know, I realize there was more to him than a smile. You know, so it was, it was mean. It was meanness that you start seeing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But then it disappears and he kind of covers it up and it's, oh, it's all okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Did he ever strike you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- at any point?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When did he lay his hands on you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, he -- the one -- one of the first times is when I -- and it -- when I laughed at him, because I was laughing. He said I was laughing at him. I thought I was kind of laughing with him, but I wasn't.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So that's when he like pulled my hair. And --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- pulled my face into kind of a wall.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And when did this happen? We're talking weeks, months?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: The first time he really physically -- would probably be -- we were up in Sacramento in a car. And we were still the three of us. So it would probably be, I don't know, maybe three months. I'll say three months. I don't really know. I just know we were in Sacramento. I know where, I know where it was. I definitely know where it was. And I know where I, I know where I was.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. And that didn't scare you enough to walk away?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think I, again, then all of a sudden it was, like, oh, well, sorry. It was his -- it's this weird where all of a sudden it turns around and they go -- he goes, oh, oh, you know, man, I shouldn't have done that. You know, sorry. Now, let me take you out. Let me make love to you. Let me treat you, like, you know, like, you're important or special.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why? Why? Why? Why'd you stay?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I mean, it's just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Well, let me --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I'm going to butt in.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah. Sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I'm going to butt in.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Go ahead.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Because -- in the Comprehensive Risk Assessment on page 6, the doctor asks you the same question. The focus was, you know, it looks like the doctor asked you, you know, why did you stay for such a long period of time? And your response was, you know, you said you'd been thinking -- you'd kept thinking, you know, the same thing that maybe I'll just hang in there, you know, and that's what my mother did, holding on to the marriage.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But this relationship, from what I've read, on the record, and I've read about your social history, and your child and adolescent development, I don't see any similarities in your parents' relationship that I see in this relationship you have with Charles Manson. So how do you, how do you draw that comparison?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, she just -- I -- just that when I was growing the whole idea was that you make a marriage work. My mother felt so, like, she had failed. She -- the first marriage her husband died.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But the second one, with my father, she kept telling me, you know, she kept looking at what she did wrong. She kept feeling it was all on her. It's all on the woman, it's fault for this marriage to collapse. And that, when I was growing up, that's really what we were supposed to be kind of looking for at school. And everything else was -- you know, in the fifties there wasn't a whole lot of, you know, of go try to be an astronaut. It just, you know, it was like getting a relationship, getting married, maybe going to college and becoming a schoolteacher. But that was the -- that's what you would do. But you were looking to have a marriage and a relationship. And that's, really, what I came out of. And that what was a family was to do. And part of it is that, you know, at the end of the day, I just felt, half the time, I deserved it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right. But --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That I felt I deserved whatever I got. That this -- I wasn't going to get better. That I wasn't going to be able to find someone better than what I had. That somehow, in all this, maybe I deserved to have my hair pulled. Maybe I deserved to be hit. I mean, honestly, in myself, I thought somehow must -- I must somehow deserve this. I'm doing something wrong, not to have it -- have the results come out differently.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. But getting back to your parents' relationship, they got to a point either it was your mother, your father, or both, they decided, hey, this isn't working. This is not healthy for us. This isn't good. We --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: We need to split.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You know, and you drawing that comparison with you and Charlie Manson. We don't see that you ever got to that point with him. You know, and I mean, the -- ultimately, of course, it ends up in these brutal slayings. But even before then, I mean, there's just so many antisocial things going on in this relationship. And I -- reading that in the Comprehensive Risk Assessment, where you draw that comparison, I just didn't see that that was a good comparison or maybe not a good understanding of what -- you really understood what your relationship was with him.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I just felt -- I meant in the sense that you stick it out to try to make it better. That's what my mother kept trying to do, because their relationship fell apart a long time before they ever divorced.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did you, did you ever witness beating your mother or your mother --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- beating on your father?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did you ever -- I know you said that there was an indication, and you found out later, that your father had some extramarital affairs.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. He had affairs. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But did your father ever bring any women into the house with your mother there? I'm just comparing your --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I know that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- relationship with --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I know. And this is -- and I was trying to think about it. There was -- we went on a trip in -- when I was 11 years old to Hawaii. And my father, on that trip to Hawaii, my father invited a woman named Ada Deiner (phonetic) and her two children. And they came with us on that trip with my mother and myself. So when you say did he bring them into the house? No. But that is the first time -- I knew, because my mother was crying and we were up in a hotel room, in Hawaii, and I was 11 years old. My dad was out with Ada. It's that simple. Yes. He did -- in that sense, he brought a woman into the house. And I watched my mother break apart. That was on this supposed great trip that we were supposed to take.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And how old were you then?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Eleven.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You were 11.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. And I, and I remember that very clear, because we were at the hotel. And he was out with Ada and her two daughters. And I remember I felt really, you know, I felt lousy, too, because he was really enjoying her and her two daughters. Her husband had committed suicide. They were friends at the church. And there they were. And my mom was falling apart.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So your mom -- did your mom -- were they having an affair?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure now. I mean, I wasn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Just this -- just now --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- privy to any of that, but my mom, certainly, thought so, because my mom stayed in the hotel room while my father was out with Ada and her kids for almost the entire vacation.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And what happened to Ada and her kids after the vacation?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I really don't know. I don't know how long my father if he stayed with -- I have no idea. But I do know, I do know that was the first time I realized that things were, certainly, not good. And so, I watched that. And my mom has always -- she always tried to stick it out. And that was it. You know, and so that's -- that I do remember, but when you said the house --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What did --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- he never brought anyone into our home. But that, certainly, was a big, red flag for my mother.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. So it sounds like --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- wasn't accepting of whatever it was your father had with Ada; correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. All she did was cry, but she tried to keep the relationship together. And they kept saying, well, we're saying together because of you. And so, I always felt guilty for all of her sadness. I mean, it -- the whole -- the family was, you know, it was very -- you know, it was dysfunctional, like so many.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Commissioner, may I ask her. You keep on saying that you were going to stick it out and hope it got better. But it never got better.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So why didn't you do something about it when it never got better? It progressed to him being verbally aggressive within a couple of weeks, to pulling your hair, to throwing knives at you, to, ultimately, selling you. So things did not get better. So this is beyond; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: This is beyond I'm sticking there until things get better. We're moving way outside the realm, very quickly, within a year. May I ask why with all of these -- it never got better, it never got better, it never got better, it never got better. It got worse, and worse, and worse, and worse. And --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, eventually, I did --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I did try to leave.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. When?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And he came and got me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And he threatened the person that was with me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Is this --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So yes, I did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- the biker?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. What -- when did this happen?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That was probably, let me, let me -- it would probably be about a year, maybe a year and -- well, wow. Maybe a year.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, maybe you can use --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I tried to leave. I'm trying to -- I'm really trying to go into time here. And I tried twice to leave.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And both times --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm glad you brought that up.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Because maybe using the life crime, the first set of murders, as your reference point, and work backward. When was the first time you tried to leave?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was probably about a year. It was probably a year, 12 months, at the most.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. And what caused you to want to leave the first time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I just I wanted out. I didn't even know -- I just knew I wanted out.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I, and I met this guy that was a friend of, a friend of his. But he was a biker and I thought maybe, you know, maybe I'll just stay with him and let, you know, and leave. I just -- I want out. This isn't -- it doesn't -- I don't -- it doesn't feel right. So let me out. And I, and I can't --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- say that I, that I was thinking all rationally, because by that, by that time, you know, I wasn't thinking in the way that I'd be thinking today.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That's all I can say. My mind, certainly, not clear.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Was there an incident that caused you to feel that way?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Actually. I had -- we had taken off. We were supposed to go to Arizona. But what had happened is, there was a group of us and we went to Arizona. And I was with this biker that was going to Arizona and there was, like, about five of us that went to Arizona. And when I was away, with, you know, with this guy, and there was a couple of other gals, and a couple of guys. And we went to Arizona. I just -- when I got back, I thought I don't want to return to the ranch.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I don't want to go back there. I don't -- I want -- I don't want to go back with Manson.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why? This is your -- I mean, this is the guy you were in love with. You were willing to prostitute yourself for.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So I'm still not understanding why, at that point, you want to leave. Was he, was he being violent, at the time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, certainly, violent then. Yes. And --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But you don't know why you want to leave.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- violent and out of -- because I just wanted away. Yeah. It's the best I can do. I, honestly, I just wanted away. And I couldn't even tell you -- I just I wanted out and away. And so, and the guy said, fine. He had no problem. And he had no problem until Manson came.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And how did you meet this biker guy?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: He came up to the ranch. He was somebody that knew. But -- and I forget why we -- to Arizona, it was something that was either we were, who knows, picking up drugs or something. And there was a group of us that went, because often people who go on different places -- would go to different places to do different things.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That would be to bring -- it could have been bringing anything. Yet, you, you know, they could have been getting some bikes or something. And so, I somehow got along. I went on that trip with him. And --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did you have to get permission from Charles Manson to leave with him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. He usually set -- yeah, he would always set up these things. And the guy probably was someone -- he knew him. He knew a lot of bikers.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so, different -- they could come and go. They didn't -- they weren't -- there was only maybe one or two that ever lived, actually, at the ranch. Most of them they kept their own lives separate. They would just interact. And by that time, there was, of course, there was more people than -- you know, it was quite a few people living together, at that point. And they would come and go. A lot of people came and went.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Well --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And they would do things. You know, they would do things for him or whatever.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so, he felt that was a friend. You can go ahead and do that, you know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So how long were you with this biker guy before you realized, hey, I want to stay with him now?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We were probably -- that was probably about a week and I just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you stayed with him a week?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably when we went. And it was a group of us. And again, we were a part of that -- where, you know, when we were with these guys or as Manson always seemed to have it set up, is that, you know, when we'd get the bikers or the men would come up to the ranch, he'd usually kind of try to pair them with women.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So it was --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That was a way he gained control over them.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So were you acting --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- as a prostitute with this guy at first?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Not really. I mean, I -- it just, you know, it just seemed -- I mean, I didn't, I didn't sleep with him --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- until -- and nearly until the end. I only slept with him, like, I think, once. And it wasn't what I had thought. That's when I decided to stay with him when we came back to his home. And he lived somewhere I think like Redondo or something. He lived, he lived in back -- when we came back from Arizona we went to his place for a day or something. And I didn't want go back to the ranch. So I thought I'd stay with him. I wasn't planning to even stay with him for -- I didn't know what I was going to do, but I just -- I didn't want to go back. I asked him if I could stay. At that -- he said yes. And he said yes until Manson came.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So were -- I know we keep asking you this over, and over, and over again. But I mean, you said you just didn't want to go back. Were you afraid? Were you mad at him? Were you -- what were you feeling? I mean, because like the Commissioner said, I mean, you've had this long period of time --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I was feeling probably all of that, but I really couldn't define my feelings well.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I couldn't. I couldn't pinpoint, because I didn't -- my references were gradually disappearing. I didn't have connection to, you know, to people from my past, to that. We were, we were becoming a cohesive group around this man and his philosophy. And you weren't allowed outside of that. And so, I -- my thought patterns, I was so into wanting to think like him, be like him, be what he wanted me to be, so that I was acceptable to him. That was part of the taking the drugs, the drug trips, the doing what he asked, is that he -- and the always staying together. He was developing -- as he developed the philosophy, I would be picking up part of the philosophy, because you weren't allowed to have individual thoughts. It was like he had his own set of logic, his own set of thoughts and ideas. And they were set aside from what, say, a normal person would have.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. I'm glad you brought that up, because I wanted to know when did he start indoctrinating you with his own philosophies. When did that start? Because when you met him, he seemed like a normal guy; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: He likes to play music. And that's what you like about him.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And he's telling you how great you are. When did it take a turn into the dark side?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think a lot of it had to do as the drugs progressed, the hallucinogens and stuff. And in the areas that we were going, and the people that we were meeting, somehow he started finding -- or he was going back into whatever, I don't know, maybe his pattern of being a pimp. He started finding his power again. And the idea -- and so, he was a man who utilized now that I -- at least this is my take. And that he utilized women to get what he wanted. And now he saw us women, say just starting, even with the three, people that could be, again, no different than the prostitutes that he would take to get the power and control of others. And he did that. And it, and it -- and the more he did that, I don't know where he even started to come up with these ideas of -- that the -- he was -- the world was changing. He started picking up some of the, some of the normal stuff that was being said, at the time. We have to figure that -- during the sixties there was a lot of stuff going on about things changing, about changing the government, about the wars, too. So he started -- he was a little bit of that, too. But he started finding, I believe, that we -- that he, again, could control people and use them to gain more power. And he was a man set on having power. And when he started -- and when people would tell him no, when he'd get those people that would stand up to him, he reacted either with violence or some form of manipulation to try to take them down.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. One --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Let me just --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah. Sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So all right. I'm going to, I'm going to try, --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I'm going to try and narrow this down.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So around the time of the life crime, okay, there was a group. And I know prior to the life crime people came --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- people went, right. But there was a specific group --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- of people involved in --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- in your crimes; right? When did that form? I think that's what we were trying to get to. When did that group form -- when did, when was there either a sit-down or there was a decision that, hey, this is the philosophy we're going to live by. And this is how we're going to approach life?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: May I move your mic, Commissioner?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I'll just move it here.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Because you seem to be a little bit --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That's okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Again, it kind of developed. I mean it -- as we, as we went along, everything changed. And he came up with more and more ideas. And the more people that he got that were living, as we were living together, the more communal we became, the more people that came in and joined, the more he started developing some philosophy that he felt would be, I think, cohesive with everybody. He used LSD and times when we would meet. He, also, started getting more and more into his idea of some kind of, I want to say savior.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: He used Christ. He used, he used so many things in his philosophy. I mean, I know this is -- it's difficult. But I mean, the man's -- I'd found out, you know what I mean, he's studying -- he's - - religion and, you know, he's -- he knows, you know, psychology. And he, and he'd studied things in prison that this whole idea of throwing out all these pieces of, to -- of whatever it may seem to bring you on with him. In other words, any person he met, he seemed to know what to say to them to get them to somehow like him or agree with him. He had his own charismatic kind of personality, which would draw you in, using something or if he met you just alone he would find something that he could connect with you. And people seemed to find him because we had people all the time coming to the ranch and they seemed to like him. So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Let me -- I'm going to stop you because we're, I think we're --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- kind of going off of -- or even what the question was. So the question -- so, I'm going to name a person, Tex Watson, he was involved with you guys.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Correct? When did he come into the picture?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I -- God, I don't, I don't really know, specifically. Probably about a year later, maybe.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: About a year into your relationship?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes, I think so, or a little bit later even. I don't know exactly where he had met Tex, because I don't know kind of where some -- where all these, you know, exactly when he met him or anything like that. I just know people would appear, you know, at the ranch and I don't know if he knew him before, prior. Because some people he knew and they eventually drifted in and stayed. Some he kept on the outskirts.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So you talked about meetings, that you guys had meetings.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. During these meetings was there a discussion about the specific philosophy that you wanted to live by?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: He demanded a certain way that we lived by that. I mean he --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: It happened -- and that happened during the meeting?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- he defined it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: This is how we're going to live.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So well how --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Lived.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- did he define the way you were going to live?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That we would -- that it, again, it's all gradual. There would be, if we had children, there was people that took care of the children. There was these people would be the people that would cook.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know. We had vested -- you, we had someone taking care of George up at the, at the main house. We had people that would go out and try to get food. And the larger it got, the more it was designation of what was going to happen and who, and where and when. Because you had people to -- that had to, you know. So we probably got to a point of, we went from say the -- myself to maybe 50 or less people that at times were living together. So that's a lot of people and there has to be, you know, a designation of labor, who does what, what, where. And he would design that. And then, who would, you know, who would go out and get the drugs, who would get, you know, who would get the food, who would get, you know, and do this or that. So that was, that was, you know, something that he did. And he would decide, and, I mean, he would do -- kind of live his own life while others of us would go and do this or that or stay there or, like, I often took care of the children. So I would just take care of the children and -- or I would cook or I would, you know. And he would have other women go do other things or other men go do other things. Because eventually there was men and women that came and lived there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And there was also criminal activity involved; right? He would designate people to go do certain things like theft and robberies?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, eventually. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right. And I --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And I think I remember reading that there was -- what, a theft of dune buggies?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So how did you fall within that criminal activity? What were your duties?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I went out and stole dune buggies with --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What's that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- Tex. I went out and stole dune buggies with Tex.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Once.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And what were the dune buggies for?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: To go out to the desert. And that was part of his philosophy that we were going to live out in the desert.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So he wanted dune buggies. And we also lived in the woods a lot so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So were these --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- that was later on.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Were these dune buggies, were they ever modified by anyone on, at the ranch?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, the men would, yeah, modify them. They'd cut them down.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And how would they modify them?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: They made them so that they were lighter and I guess would move faster, I'm not --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm not really sure. They added things. They added, you know, things on them to carry more -- carry sleeping gear, food, things like that, too. They, I'm --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did they mount guns on the --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- trying to think of it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- on the dune buggies?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Honestly, I don't remember ever seeing that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. Were the dune buggies, did you know of the intent to -- to do, for to have the dune buggies, was the intent to go out and commit more crimes with the dune buggies, as well?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Actually, I don't know that either. I mean, I didn't hear that. We used them in the desert to get up and down the wash and they were, they're, you know, they work in the desert a lot. I didn't have, honestly, that was not --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- something I saw done or have ever --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- seen. Yeah, no. But you know, the crime -- one of the things that was done is that anyone that came to the ranch, Manson would try to see if they had money of any kind. I mean, most of the women that came had money and they would, and they would do it and it wasn't until there was too -- some more -- many, there was a lot of people and the people that were coming didn't have money anymore to support that. Then, it turned into, then they had to go find money in other ways.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And you had a prior arrest for theft; correct? Prior to the life crimes?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: The dune buggies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That was dismissed.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we were arrested. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That was for the dune buggies?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, yes. But --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Was it just you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We weren't convicted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- arrested or was it a group?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think -- no, I think it was Tex. It was a couple times we were arrested. I was arrested up north with some girls. We were arrested for drugs and that was a dropped. And we had gone up north in Ukiah, I think it was, where we were arrested. And so I was arrested then and they dropped the charges.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, we went to, and then with Tex, I think that was in, the other arrest and that was the dune buggies. That too was dropped, I think. And that -- but we were arrested, I think myself and Tex, some others. I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- I don't remember all that was arrested with me then.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: May I ask her one -- did the robberies occur prior to the first set of life crimes?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably. Maybe four to six months, I don't know, four months maybe.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. And how many of these robberies were you involved in?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: The dune buggies.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: That was just the one time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Yeah. I think that was the only, I was the only one there. There was more robberies going on but I -- there was, that I, that -- yeah. It was a -- there was another robbery I knew about, but I was on the dune buggy one and I -- and he was talking about some others but I don't know exactly what, if they actually transpired or if he did it or not. Because there was discussion at times that he would, that -- of something to go do that or this person or whatever, but it was, I wasn't included at the --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- at the end of that --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: In the robbery that you had participated in, what did you do?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We went into a showroom and drove off some dune buggies.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you holds gun on anyone?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay, so --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We had no weapons.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- no weapons at that time. Okay. And then, I don't know if you finished answering the Commissioner's question when he said at these meetings, what kind of stuff were being taught to the people.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Wait. Before we go on --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- I need to go back to this. So did you volunteer or to go take these dune buggies or were you instructed to?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was instructed to.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And who --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And it was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- instructed you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Manson.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. All right. So getting back to the, to the meetings, when did it come out that you wanted to -- or Charles Manson wanted to start this, divide the country and start this race division? When did that come out?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think he started doing that probably, again, probably started that philosophy probably somewhere along, maybe four to six months.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Four to six months?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, prior to the crimes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Prior to the life crimes.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Because he had, along the way he was really trying to get in the music business. He had other ideas and philosophies at that time that he thought --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. I just wanted to talk about that philosophy though. So what was the plan?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, he started talking about there was going to be a race war.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And that -- and, of course, he came up with this crazy idea of, which at that time we were going to go to the desert and there was going to be a, there was a hole in the desert that we were going to live in and while the, while the war raged or whatever. But I -- he -- I never heard him, you know, say he was going to try to start it. He just, it -- that came out in, at trial. But I mean, that wasn't what he was saying. He was saying this is going to happen and this is going to happen. And there was this whole feeling of -- that we were under attack. He started making it more that, you know, we were, we were under, you know, that it, you can see they're trying to attack us. That we're living together. We're a group of people and we're being under attack and the, you know, and there is going to be this. So we started getting where he was making it really pulling, say the circle together. He wanted everybody really tight together because we were under attack and this -- and did everything and, you know, and America itself was going to go to war. So we needed to be really close with one another, you know, we had to be on one philosophy, one thought, one -- we were one him. And we would be able to survive somehow.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So what led up to the first set of murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't -- there wasn't ever any discussion about what took place. At the time, we'd, you know, anytime we got together and had discussions, they were like at, you know, when there was -- when there usually was drugs and we were brought together and he would do that and he would, he would basically perform and go with all his philosophies. So that was nothing that said this was coming.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: What happened was I was -- and most of the time, like I said, I was designated to take care of the children or do the cooking or whatever. I was more of a domestic --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- assignments. And I was, I was in the trailer with the children when he came and got me out of the trailer and told me to go with Tex. First, he said go to the house and Lynne Fromme was there and she gave me dark clothing and a knife.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And Manson said, go with Tex and there was Susan and myself and Linda Kasabian and Tex. And he told us to get into a car and go with Tex. And together he said --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let me ask you this, let me, let me stop you real quick, and then I'll let you continue. Let me ask you this, so when Susan, you said, gives you the dark clothing?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, Lynne.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Lynne. When Lynne gives you the dark clothing and gives you the knife.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Of course you don't, you don't ask Charles Manson why is this happening?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, he wasn't even there, yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But did you ask her? Did you ask Lynne, hey what's this about? What are we getting ready to do? What are -- what's going on?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I may have but she wouldn't have said anything.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: She wouldn't have said anything, she'd just say look, you know, put them on. And she wouldn't, she wouldn't, she had no --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It would have been nothing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did she have the same type of clothing on when she handed you your clothes?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Did she eventually have dark clothing on --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- at the time of the life crime?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Lynne never came with us. She was just in the house. She was in --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- George's house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you go there with Tex and who else?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Susan --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- Atkins and Linda Kasabian --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- and Tex.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think it was, it was us. And --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And is that it?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That was us.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Is everyone wearing the same type of clothes?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. And you never questioned what you were doing? Why you were all dressed alike? Why you had a knife in your hand?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, because we did, you know, we did, I -- we did have knives and that we did use them at times because we lived out in the woods. So we used them for a lot of different things. So we did use knives and -- but I had, you know, never used it in any form of violence. I had just used it to cut down, you know, plants. But the bottom line is that I -- we, also, had done dark clothing like when we went and got dune buggies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know, so if we were --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- going to do anything I just, I thought maybe we were, you know, maybe we were going to get more dune buggies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did you have the knife when you went to get dune buggies?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No? Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So that's what you thought at the time, that you were going to get dune buggies or did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, no. I just, I just, it was something, you know, I -- it didn't really come into my mind what we would be doing. I just thought, you know, it was something that had happened before at the ranch. It was something I had done before at the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Slept in dark clothing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So you leave, you get -- you all pile into the car, you take off. Do you go right to the address on Cielo?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You do. Okay. And what happens once you arrive there?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Once we get there, Tex went up and he had a rope and a gun and a knife, I guess. And he went up to -- he went and cut the power lines. He went, he went to a gate. He stopped the car, he went up and he cut the power lines. And then he came down and he told us to go over like a fence and wait for him there. He went over and then he told us to come over the fence and wait. And he went, he went up the, up the driveway and the three of, the three of us, Linda, my -- you know, myself and Susan, we were in, like in the bushes on the side. And we went -- we just stayed there and then he went up the driveway. And we heard a gunshot.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, he comes back and, I mean, all of us were like, what? I mean, we had no idea. It was the first time we heard something like that go off, it was a gunshot, and the three of us, and he said, follow me. So we went towards the house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let me ask you this before you go on. So when he scales the pole to cut the line, the power to the house, what's going through your mind? What are you thinking?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't know. I think I was just fearful and wondering what the heck's going on. I mean, we were all -- the three of us were just standing like --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- looking at each other. We had no idea. Because he didn't say anything, he just said, just wait, you know. And we went and did that. Yeah. Yeah, he had cutters like -- I don't know if he had bolt cutters or --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you didn't have any thoughts of, well, what's coming next or --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I mean, I -- yeah, I think that was part of it, too, sure. I mean, I just, everything, we were just running in our heads what, you know, what are we doing, you know. And we don't know so it's just, you know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Was there any discussion between the three ladies, you and --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- the other two? Nothing? You just --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, we just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- watched him scale the pole and cut the lines?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. And it was done very quickly and then he came down and we were, like, I don't know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. I got it. All right. And so then, you say you guys -- he tells you to hop over the fence and wait there?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And so, what happens after that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, he went up the driveway. We heard a gunshot. He came back. He told, he told the three of us to come with him to the house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we did. And when we got to the house, he tried, I think it was, he tried some windows, he went to get in and he went, he went through and we came and went in through a door.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: He came, he came around and let us in. I'm trying to think whether he was, yeah, it was him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And then what happens?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Then, when we got inside the house, I think it was -- I'm trying to remember. When we first got in the house there was a man on the sofa and I believe that was Mr. Frykowski. And he was in -- and he was on the sofa. And of course he asked, you know, what are you doing here. And at first, Tex just tried to, was -- said, oh we, something -- we want your money. And he asked -- and he said for any, and he looked down the hall and he told us, Susan to go down the hall and see if anybody was there besides the man there. And he had a, he had a gun on him, Tex had a gun on him. And Susan -- and so Susan went down the hall and I'm -- I think, I'm trying to remember when he told, he told Linda to go out and keep watch. So Linda went out and Susan went down the hall and she came back and said, yes there's, you know, there's some people in a, in a bedroom. And so, she came back and he said, well, go get them. And she went down the hall and I started to walk somewhat down the hall with her, too. And she went in and she told the people to come up. She had a knife and showed the people to come up and it was three. It was, it was Sharon Tate. It was Abigail Folger and Jay Sebring. And so they, and so they came up with her and they came on into the main room. And he started -- and he was, he just kept saying that they, you know, he wanted some money. And he had me look in a desk for some money and there was nothing. And Mr. Sebring said to him something about, you know, we don't have anything, you know, just leave, you know, just leave. We don't have anything. And Tex then said something about I'm the devil and I'm here to do the devil's work. And so, and so he had a, he -- I think Mr. Sebring came closer to him and he shot him. And he asked Susan to go get something to -- he shot him in the leg or something and he told him, and he, and he asked Susan to go find something to tie him up with. And Susan left and somehow came back with a, with a, with a towel. And so, I think she was like trying to, like, I don't know if she was tying him up or Tex, but in that time he also had a rope and what he did is he threw it over a bannister or a piece of wood and he brought it down and he started tying up Ms. Tate, Ms. Folger. And I, and I used to think it was Mr. Sebring but I guess not. I don't know if it was. But he started tying them up and he said, he -- and he was having difficulty with it. And Ms. Folger pulled away and she ran and he told me, go after her and kill her. And I did. I followed, I followed her out of the house. So that was like I saw within the house. I -- as I started taking off after her and I remember, you know, going through the door, she went down to the back and, a door, and I followed her onto the grass. And I began stabbing her.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I was, I was following my directions and I was going to, and I was going to kill her. So I -- that's what I had to.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So I mean, now everything has changed, right, in your life?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Everything. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You know, we talked about the drug abuse. We talked about your relationship. But now you've gone to this high, high level of violence.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And you're response is the reason why you did it is because you were instructed to?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. He said that's what -- do it. And I just started, I ran after her.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So what do you think, do you think there was something more than just him telling you go kill -- go catch up to her and kill her? You think there was something more going on internally with you that led you to going and brutally killing Ms. Folger?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes, I do. I think I just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- it had to be me, too. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't just an instruction anymore. I just -- I had become part of what I had considered I guess was this philosophy, this reality that had slowly been created during the time that I was with him for these two years and that whatever was to happen, I was a part of and I would, and I would go to the ends to do it. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And I'm getting back to my question, though. What inside of you would even lead you to having that thought, having that -- living by that philosophy?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Believing in the belief system that I had, at the time, that somehow we were all under some high -- somehow, some kind of attack and that this was part of the plan.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So because the last -- reading your transcripts of the last hearing, I -- do you, I mean, you had, I know you elected to not talk about the specifics of the crime, but you actually did kind of get into it. And you had made a comment to the Panel and you had said that, you know, you were at a point in your life where, you know, the victims -- and I want to, I want to get this as close to as accurate to what you said as possible. But you met -- you said something to the effect that the victims had to be sacrificed so you would be able to survive or, you know, it was basically they had to be sacrificed. It was, either it was that or it was your life. You remember making that, a similar statement, something like that? I can pull it up --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- if you don't.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I mean, I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What did you mean?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- believe what you're saying is that, I mean, at this point you're -- at the ranch there was no leaving anymore. Your life was forfeit. You couldn't leave. We had developed into a point where things that happened which I didn't really know about what had happened with Bobby Beausoleil and Gary Hinman. So but there was now --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You didn't know about what happened with them?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, I didn't really. I didn't know that all that had taken place. And what happened is there --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Wait, let me stop you. I'm sorry.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let me stop you.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: The quote from you at the last hearing, you said, "I was willing basically to sacrifice other lives for my own."

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Because I was at the point where what my -- I didn't have, I knew that anything I did would have a repercussion. If I don't do what I do, I will -- I'm -- I was forfeit. So I was this power that lived, whatever was said to me, I knew that the repercussions were going to be bad, to the point of death. Because that's where we had come by the time that this night happened. Anyone that would try to leave, you can't get away. I already had experienced that twice. There was no leaving. There was no way out. It was either my life, their life, it was -- everything was forfeit anymore. I was, I had, at that point, I have to say I, even living at the ranch was pretty much just knowing. It just seemed like I had given up as far as anything that was -- any remnant that would have reminded me of some other reality was pretty well gone. My reality was what was happening at the ranch, Manson's philosophy, which I had internalized as much as I could because it was the only way you survive. I was surviving in the --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- best way I knew how.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So Manson's philosophy was, is that if an individual or individuals got in the way of your mission, and I'm -- I guess I'm speaking in general terms, or got in the way of your mission or direction, they would have to be sacrificed?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Sure. And me, too. You know, anyone, either is -- anything at that point. By the time, the night of those crimes and by the time, maybe a couple weeks on up to that I -- it had to have changed somewhere along of, I mean, because I can't pinpoint it, but I'm sure it changed when the murder of Gary Hinman took place. It became totally life or death. I mean, it had been working up to that because as I say, I would -- I tried to leave twice. And in that time I, he threatened the person that did that and he threatened me. We lived under threat --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So he --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- at all times by that time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: He threatened to kill you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Leaving at that point, by that time, yes. He told others to -- yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That no one could leave. No one was allowed to leave. He didn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That's, you know. And you know, and then he'd ask questions of me like would you die for me? Would you give up your life for me? I mean, he -- there was this whole different banter at these, like you say, at these meetings which, I -- it's a weird group but when we gather it was different than, it was life or death. Everything had -- now had the term life or death attached.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. I just -- that word sacrifice, it really, really, really sticks out. And you know, and like I said, I read it last hearing and I read it -- or I just talked to you about it. And my concern is, you know, the victims. They weren't sacrificed.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You may have thought that back then, but they weren't sacrificed, the victims were murdered. It was, it was a brutal --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- callous, without any feelings towards anything. I mean, and the concern is -- and to say, to say that, you know, they were sacrificed. I mean, sacrifice means you're giving up something or someone is giving up something for or surrendering for -- as an offering, you know, to a god or some higher being. And listening to your description, it appears that, you know, at the time maybe you felt you were doing this for the good of Charles Manson. But I had a hard time with this. And I'm still struggling with this word and your description of them, feeling that --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I'm --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- they were sacrificed and --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, I'm not saying --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- not just brutally killed.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't say that here.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Well, you said it last hearing and, you know. But I'm going to, I'm going to move on. I'm going to move on from that. So you're stabbing Ms. Folger; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And what happens?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I stabbed her. And she pled for her life and I continued to stab her. And then, eventually, I went and I heard Tex on the porch and he was, he was fighting with someone on the porch and I went over and told him that I didn't really know if she was still alive or dead. And he told me to go to the back house and kill anyone that was there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so I went to --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And what did you do?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I went to the back house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I just stood there. I didn't enter.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And how come you didn't enter?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I just didn't. I didn't. I just stopped. I just didn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And you -- but you don't know why you stopped? I mean, you're at a point, right, where you, I mean, you just told us that if you didn't do what was told to you, what was instructed to you, you know, you would be killed or you would be sacrificed.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So what stopped you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I just couldn't continue on. So I stopped. I just went in the back and I wait until everything quieted down and I went out when it was all quiet and I left with Tex and Susan.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we went down to the car.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Looking back on it, and I know you had, at the time, you probably didn't -- you weren't in the right frame of mind. But looking back on it now, why do you think whatever stopped you from going into that back house, why do you think it didn't come out prior to that when you chased Ms. Folger down?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm -- I really don't. I just know that I stopped when I went to the back house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I do know that William Garretson was in there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. And then, you said you left. Where'd you, where did you go when you all piled into the car?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We went into the car and we went down the hill to, in front of someone's house that had a hose and Tex washed off and we drove -- we threw the weapons out somewhere along the road, on the way back.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we went back to the, back to the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And saw Manson, who asked Tex what was -- you know, was everything done, whatever. And he told, you know, he told me to just go with Tex and for us to go the back house and --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- go to bed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Let me ask you this. So it sounds like Charles Manson and Tex had a plan. They just didn't share it with --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- with you.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: They did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: They did?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Sure.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I mean, they didn't talk.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: When you arrived at the house, did you know that people were going to be killed?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We did not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And I know you had mentioned that to the doctor, you had no idea anybody was going to be killed.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But I'm reading the transcripts of the last hearing, it's on page 46, when they're asking you some questions and it's -- it looks like it surrounding around the life crime and they asked you, it looks like they already asked you how come you didn't leave and you said, "I should have found a way and not gone over that fence and run down the hill." And then there was an (inaudible), "And it's me screaming. And then, you make a statement and you said, "Because there was no doubt that I knew that what was ever going to happen was not going to be good. I did know that, and then there is another, that was, the plan was to murder two women inside of the house. That was - - give, that was given, was, "a given." That's taken from the last transcripts. So it sounds like when they asked you about that, you did know or at least that's what you told the Panel. But then, fast-forward to your hearing --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- or your interview with Dr. Athans on October 16th -- or October, I'm sorry, October 18th, 2016, you state to the doctor that you didn't know anyone was.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I didn't know anything about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Well, why is there --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't know why that's there. That --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You don't know why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't even remember saying that. I mean, that's not -- I don't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I never said that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Do you know what two women you may have been referring to at the last transcript -- the last hearing?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I don't, I don't even know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: It's page 46, at the bottom.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Let me --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- read that. That doesn't even make sense. I never said that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Anyway.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So you get back to the, to the ranch, you all go to the back house. What are, what are you thinking? Are -- is there any conversation or do you have any thoughts --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, there was no conversation.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- about what had just occurred?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: There was no conversation.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Any thoughts about what had just occurred?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I mean, I just felt really, really empty and it all just seemed really, really hopeless, miserable. I felt dirty. I felt rotten, I just felt dead inside. That's really what I felt.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And then, so did you feel that -- what did I just do? I can -- I just took a life? I mean, did you feel any remorse at that time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I, honestly, I think I probably just knew that I couldn't feel anything.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I couldn't even -- I couldn't allow myself to feel anything, just like I hadn't felt anything for a long time there at the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Got it. Got it. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And so the next night is, the next day or the next night is when the second set of murders happens; correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Correct.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Did it happen kind of like the same way? Did -- well did someone come to you and say let's go or?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And who was that someone?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Manson.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Charles Manson?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What did he say to you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: He said, come on, let's go. And it was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did he tell you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- you know, a whole carful of people then.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Did you ever -- and I'm going to go back to the first murder, so what was the actual intent after everything was said and done, what was the actual intent of going to the house? Was it to rob the victims? Was --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, that's what Tex kept saying.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Well, let me, let me say it --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- let me finish. Was it to rob the victims? Was it to -- or was it to murder the victims or both?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I thought it was a robbery because that's what Tex said when we got in.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: When you got --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That's what he said. When we got in the house he told them we were here to rob them.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Then, he started going on about, then all of a sudden it was, I'm the devil --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: The devil, okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- and I'm here to do this, the devil's work. And it started -- it switched up very quickly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, he shot someone. I had, I -- that's, like I said, that his first words were I'm here to rob you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. Okay. So getting, and going, fast-forwarding to the second set of murders. Charles Manson comes to you and said, hey, let's go.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And what happens?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Again, we got into a car, only this time I think there was Steve Grogan. And there was Tex. And there was Manson. There was Linda. There was Susan. There was Leslie Van Houten there and myself. I think that was the carful this time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And so you drive, where do you go?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We go, we go actually to a house that was next door to Harold Trues.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And when we got there, Manson and Watson left the, left the car and went inside the house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, eventually they come out and they say that there is two people inside, tied up. And Manson said -- pointed to me and Ms. Van Houten then told us to go with Tex and do whatever he said.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And he told me to do something witchy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Do something? I'm sorry.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Witchy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Witchy?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, witchy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. Okay. And did, and take us through this, what happened? Take us through --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So then, when we got in the house there were two people on the sofa and they had, they had a pillowcase over their head and they were tied up. And Tex told Leslie and I to take Ms. LaBianca into the back or into a bedroom and to kill her.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And he first -- first he told us we need to get knives. And I got, went and, because we didn't have any weapons. And so, I got a knife out of the drawer in the kitchen. And so, we took her into the bedroom and first tried to like tie her hands up, I think or something like that, with a cord of a, of a lamp or something. Then that --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- didn't work. She started hearing her husband in the front room, with Tex, pleading for his life. And she started calling out to him and I know I stabbed her once in the collarbone and at that point, you know, I looked at Leslie and Leslie ran out and told Tex to come in. And so he came in and he, and he told, and he told Leslie to do something, I don't know, but he told me to go on out and do something witchy. And so, I went out and I went and got a fork from the kitchen and I went and I stabbed Ms. LaBianca -- Mr. LaBianca in the stomach with a fork. And then, I took a -- I found a rag or something and I got blood from him and I wrote on the walls.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And what did you write on the walls?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I wrote Helter Skelter, I wrote -- oh, I think it was like Death to Pigs. I don't -- or Die or something like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I remember that those are what I wrote on the walls.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. When you were with Ms. LaBianca, what -- was she, obviously, she was pleading for her life?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, she was actually pleading for the life of her husband.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Of her husband?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: How about her life? Was she, was she saying --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We didn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- don't do this to me?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: She didn't, she, I didn't hear it. I, what I heard her, she was saying, she was talking about her husband. And by that time then, like I said, then Tex came in so that was the, that was what I had heard. That's what I remember.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. Okay. And why were they selected? Why were they, yeah, selected as the victims that night?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I have no idea why they were. All I know is that later on I know that they were next door to Harold Trues' house. And that's somebody which we knew and got drugs from on occasion and we had lived there for -- we had, we had gone and stayed there, I don't want to say lived, but we stayed overnight a couple times at his place. And so, I'm not quite sure what Manson had in mind because it was next door to somebody he knew pretty well.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. I see. Okay. So when you left the house, did you know, did you know that they were, they were dead, the two victims?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I assumed that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yes. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we left and hitchhiked back to the, back to the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: How -- you hitchhiked?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: How did you get there, to the house?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We were driven in the car with Manson and Linda Kasabian and, oh, God, I can't think of his name right now.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: The other guy. And he -- we -- they left. They took the car and left. After Manson came out and said that, you know, that they had tied up the people in the house and to go with Tex. He just left in the car and they left us there and we hitchhiked back.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. And what happens back at the ranch?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't go back to the ranch. When we got up towards the ranch, I went down to what's called Devil's Canyon. It's across from the ranch, out into the woods.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I went down to the woods, to a tent.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And why did you do that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think -- yeah, Tex said to go there. I knew that we had a, we had a place down there and so I went there. I think Tex went back into the ranch and I just went back across --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- to a tent that we had set up and some people were down there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So you sleep in the tent overnight; right. And then, you get up the next day. What happens the next day?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, like -- you know, Manson always told us if we said anything, you know, we were, we were to keep quiet about all this.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know, under his normal threats. But I stayed out in the canyon for a while.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And then, eventually I ended up going to, he -- to Box Canyon to stay with Leslie at the Fountain of the World. He took us from the ranch and took us up there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And said to stay there for a while.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And what was the intent? Was it to stay there for a while until things cooled down after the murders, or?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I have no idea. He told us to go there and try to make that. Maybe he thought that if we stayed there long enough that he could move more people there. Because it had been at one time like a commune or something. It was a religious -- it had been a religious spot in Box Canyon and where some guru had had a bunch of people that lived there and it was called Fountain of the World. And it had been a non-profit and there was still people living there. There was about three or four people that were living there --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- that still ran it, but they were, you know, they did -- they needed to collect money and stuff to keep it going, because it's a non profit and it was a religious non-profit.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So he put us there and I think he was hoping that we'd be able to get them to allow more people to live there because it was -- there was just way too many people living at the ranch. That's why different places had people living there from down in, down in the Devil's Canyon to -- then it became Fountain of the World to out in the desert. He had found different places that became places where people were slowly being moved to.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So I guess it's reasonable to say that the next day, at least it would appear, and I know you can't get into his mind, but it was kind of like business as usual for him.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I assume.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: For him to move people around. So eventually you, along with the codefendants, are arrested; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes, up at --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: How does that happen?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- up at, yeah, up at the ranch, at Barker's in the desert.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was arrested, yeah, up in Death Valley.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And we were living up there and they came up and I'm not exactly sure, I think they came up because of -- they saw stolen vehicles.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It had brought them up there. Or they had been tipped that there was a lot of people that were living in an area and shouldn't have been. So there was like a raid and they came up, the police, from, God, Ione or someplace like that. It's a small devil -- small desert.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So you weren't arrested for the murders.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You were arrested for the stolen property or whatever?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. We were arrested and taken down to Inyo County --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- Jail. And they eventually released almost all of us.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because they were just, they were looking for other things, I don't know, vehicles, whatever.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. You know, I think now's a good time. Let's take a short break. The time's approximately 12:13 p.m.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. We're back on record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. The time's approximately 12:28 p.m. All the same parties that were present prior to the break are back in the room at this time. Okay. We were discussing the life crime and it was the second set of murders. And I believe we got through that and we're -- I think we ended up, ended off where after staying in the tent, you were, you were arrested for the receiving stolen property or the --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. Something -- I don't know what it was.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you were released?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Charges dismissed or?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, they just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. And then, what happens?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My father picked me up. Because what had happened is that we had always -- we never had our own names, we were always assigned a name. So his --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Hold on for one second. We got somebody pushing something through. Okay. I'm sorry.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: You have a soft voice so I want to make sure I hear.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: All right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Anyway, I was just saying, you know, anytime we were arrested or whatever, we never -- we knew -- we really weren't allowed to keep our own names, so we always had funny names. And Manson always assigned names. And so, when I got arrested this time and we were there for a long time, they kept asking who I was or whatever, whatever, I finally said my name. Okay. Now, I said Pat Krenwinkel.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So they contacted my dad.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So my dad picked me up.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What prompted you to use your name?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't know. It was just going on and on, day after day, and some people were leaving and then they were going, whatever. And finally, you know, I -- they, you know, they knew that Katie the Evergod (phonetic) wasn't my name. So they just said, you know, what is your name, and I said, okay here is my name. You know, this is what --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- my, this is what, this is mine.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I got -- and my father picked me up.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So did you give them your true name with the intent of trying to get away or you just said, hey, I'm tired --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, it's just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- of using this old name?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I just, I just gave them my name because I was tired of being asked what my, what my name is because they knew that the name I had given them was not correct.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So I just said my name. I didn't know what that would do, but that's what happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So your father picked you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Contacted my father. Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And I believe I read in the record he takes you or sends you to Alabama?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. To see my mom.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: To see your mom or to stay with your mom?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: To stay with my mom or see my mom, yeah. I mean, I hadn't seen any of them, they -- you know, I had, the whole time I was with him I wasn't allowed to be con -- you know, contact anybody from my past.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yeah.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So you know, we -- I had, you know, allowed myself to totally get involved and not seen, you know, contacting anyone. And so, you know, so it was seeing my mom in the first time in two years.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And my dad for the first time in, you know, in the years that I'd been gone.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So what did you tell your father when he picked you up?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I -- you know, I don't even know. I know he didn't, yeah, he didn't, he didn't quite know what to do because I was giving him a bunch of, like, philosophy that just didn't -- was ridiculous, you know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was the -- I was still just spouting, spewing crap about, you know, that obviously stuff I didn't really even know. I would -- just the stuff that I had -- the philosophy of life and how, you know, education doesn't matter and, you know, and people were just this crap.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right. So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So he didn't quite know what to do with me either. He was, you know, kind of taken aback but he was glad to see me. He had tried to, I guess, find me and no one could ever find me. He had sent people to try to locate me. And then, so he sent me back to see my mom. And so I went back to Alabama again to see my mom.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: How long were you with your father before you were sent to see your mom?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't know, probably a week or two.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: About a week?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Maybe a week.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Maybe a week. I don't even know if it was that long.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Was there ever any discussions, with your father, during that weeks' time on how you had been living for the past two years?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I probably said I was living in, like a commune and with, you know, this great, you know, this great guy and, you know. It was, you know, knew everything there was to know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Some Jesus Christ figure.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because my dad didn't really know how to deal with the, you know, with how I was talking to him. I wasn't -- he was so shocked and dismayed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know, I can imagine.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So your dad, I know your dad picks you up. But after, but after being there for a while, how come you didn't go back to the ranch or where the rest of the Manson Family were? How come you went to --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- Alabama with your mom?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Commissioner, before the inmate answers, for some reason her voice has dropped very low. I'm having a really hard time hearing her. Could Commissioner ask her to, please, speak up?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Could you just --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Move that closer to her.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- just a little. Yeah, okay.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: This doesn't, this doesn't have a volume.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No, just -- yeah, that's all right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, sorry. I didn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That's okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: That's okay. So you need me to repeat the question?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Could you repeat the question?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yeah. Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No problem. So I know your dad picks you up and you're with him for a week and you end up going or you are -- or you decide to go to Alabama to see your mom. My question was how come you didn't just go back to where the Manson Family was?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I -- everyone was, well, I didn't know where anybody was, really. Everybody was kind of split up and nobody really kind of knew what they were doing. I -- they were, people were just being released. I don't know where they went. They had picked up quite a group. And I had no idea where Manson was. Because he wasn't up there when we were arrested.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't know where he was. You know, he never told us where he was going. He was doing what he was doing. He certainly -- he never checked in with me. So he was wherever. Excuse me. He would -- and I -- so I don't know. I just, you know, I was like, I don't know. I don't know where anyone is. I don't know how to get back, go forward, nothing. I just thought at this point, you know, I'll just, I didn't even, I, you know, it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was nice to see my dad, but, at the same time, it was like I don't know why, you know. Because in my head at that time it was like you're not, you know, you're not a part of our group so who are you, you know. It was like this pull was beginning.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Right. So you go to visit your mom and then, I read in the record, that you started receiving contact, I guess, calls or --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: From Lyn.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Somehow, some way --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Lyn Fromme.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: From Lyn Fromme? So she was calling to your mom's house?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I think -- yeah, it was at my aunt's.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Oh, at your aunt's house? Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. That was where I was staying.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And she was telling you Charles Manson wants you back. You need to come back?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I mean, it, yeah. I mean, it wasn't, it was, at least that, you know, we're all okay or something like that, on that term.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know, do what, do what you do. Her -- she was saying she doesn't know what's happening. Because actually this, it wasn't even so much come back, it was that we -- she didn't know what was going to go on either.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't realize it, I guess. There was a lot of investigations going on at that particular point. So she was like, do whatever you do. I'm not sure, you know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm not sure either. She didn't seem sure either of what was going to happen or what was happening, what was in the midst of going on.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So she wasn't saying come back, Charles Manson wants you back?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not really, no. She was just saying right now, you know, hang on until we figure out something. It was, it was very strange. It was a -- you know, it was because nobody seemed to know. And I guess he eventually got arrested, but it wasn't with us.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And he got picked up back up at the ranch -- up at Barker's, too, in the desert. But I don't even remember if it was a week later, I don't know. He was arrested eventually, too.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. And so, then what happens? Because, obviously, you didn't, you didn't come back, you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: There was just like a knock at the door one day and it's --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was arrested. I was arrested in a, in a car, driving to my mom's -- or well, to my aunt Garn's, it was -- that was her place, not my mom's.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. Commissioner?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You said something that was very interesting to me. You said -- you told the Commissioner a few minutes ago that the only way to survive was to believe Manson; right? You said something to the effect, when you were explaining to the Commissioner about why you believed his ideology. You said, well the only way to survive was to basically believe what he said. It almost suggests that at a certain level you had an awareness that what he was saying didn't make sense. Or am I hearing it wrong?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, at that time, I bought in lock, stock and barrel to his philosophy.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You believed everything?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I did, because it was, you know, yeah, it was the only philosophy going and we all kept passing it on, one to another. I believed, I believed in him. I believed in it as much as I knew anything to be real, which I can tell you was, nothing was very real. But that's -- yes, I, you know, I kept, I absorbed the stuff that he said. It was that or repercussions, you know. I mean, I had learned along the line that this is, this is the way it is. And I had consented.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I gave up. I just consented to it. It was, it was what I accepted. I accepted it all.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But that piece of you that knew right from wrong, that was never gone.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't believe it was. But it was and many times it was. Because I look at what I did and who I was and who could do that. Who could do what I did and have the right or wrong?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, I mean, when you're stabbing Ms. Folger, did you know that you were killing this poor woman?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: On some level I had to know that, yes. I don't believe I could not have known that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And continued to allow myself to do it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: During the first set of murders were -- did Manson, did you use drugs prior to the crime?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. But we had -- were using drugs constantly. I didn't take it that particular day or right before I left. But we were taking --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When was the last time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I couldn't even say. I could have taken it the day before. We always were taking drugs. At that point, we were taking hallucinogens. We even had opium at that -- at -- around the ranch. It was, you know, so we were constantly having, you know, all those, I want to say our gatherings or whatever, under hallucinations, under LSD with those particular drugs. So it -- days and it's hard to say because days -- I didn't count days like I do now. Time was very different, I -- so I don't, we just kind of lived from day to day. We didn't use watches, we didn't have times or clocks or, you know, it was, we -- you kind of lose sense of things, lost total sense of things there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Prior to the last, the first set of murders, when was the last time you actually had a lucid moment where you actually were completely out of the influence of drugs?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Like when did I feel like myself, a self that I had, at any time might have recognized? I couldn't tell you when.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Or just have some level of awareness. I mean, were you, were you constantly under the influence of LSD and other drugs?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think I lived, I -- whether I had the drug ingested or not, there was a reality that had become my reality, which is not real. It's hard to explain but my day-to-day was unreal. It is not -- the way I saw life in general was under a whole different way than I see it today. The way I, you know, how things are real today is not how it was then. It's very difficult to explain and the drugs, they just kept hyping -- heightening it. And then, when the drugs stopped it didn't, like all of a sudden you'd go all the way down. It was like it just left you at that plateau and you live at it and you continue on in this, like, a delusion.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's a deluded thoughts and illusions that are not real and you keep moving in them as though they are.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's hard to, it's hard to explain.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, I wanted to go back and explore your comment that you tried to leave twice; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Because the first time was with the biker.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I thought I heard you said that you left with the biker, you went to Redondo Beach.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, I was living, yeah --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Hang on. It wasn't what you thought. At some point you went back to the ranch. Did I hear that wrong?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. Manson came and got me. That's what I said. He came, he came and talked with the guy that I was living with and threatened him and he took me back.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: There was no staying. The guy told me, get out of here.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But I, also, thought you, also, said that, I guess the situation whatever, is you thought was going to be at Redondo with this biker. It didn't turn to -- turn out to be the way you imagined it. Or am I hearing it wrong?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I -- no, I would, I would have stayed but Manson came and got me because the guy --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- did know him. No, he came and got me. I was planning to stay. And but it was, what I was, said was, I didn't, when I was with him, think so much that I would just stay with him. I just was going to leave. Whatever I was going to do, I wasn't going back to the ranch. But unfortunately, Manson came and got me. I just knew that staying with him for a little while would let me, I don't know, make a decision to do something else. I didn't know what I expected. I just didn't want to go back. But I didn't have that option to stay and make that decision because Manson came very quickly and told him and me that that wasn't an option.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did he threaten you with violence if you didn't come back?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. And he threatened the guy more than me. I mean, the guy went -- told me to get out.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: He didn't want me near him.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So when was the second time you tried to leave?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I tried to leave one time with a guy named Bill. But it -- he decided, you know, it was like he said, you want to leave, and I was thinking, yeah that would be a good idea. But he all of a sudden decided, no I'm going to leave by myself, I don't want the problems.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Was that around the same time you tried to leave with the biker? Or months later?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, that was probably -- it was probably pretty close after, maybe a, maybe a month or so after. I had, because I guess he knew I had tried to leave before and then he talked about it and this one other gal, too, had talked to me about it because she was going to leave with him, too, Bill. And it just didn't -- they decided they didn't want to deal with me going. He didn't want to deal with the repercussions either. But we -- it was a discussion and I tried to leave.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You know, life at -- where you were living, could you come and go as you please?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I mean, could you get in the car and just drive off?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. No. We -- you -- anytime you went anywhere you had to be accompanied with someone else. We were not allowed to ever leave alone. And the -- and I never had access to a car. We hitchhiked. If we went anywhere the, basically, the women hitchhiked. I hitchhiked with another woman wherever we went. And so, that's what we did. We didn't, if we ever drove, it was maybe a whole group of us and maybe someone else. It was usually me, and then it was like the five or six, and there was somewhere to go and if we drove. But we were always in a group and we always had to be with someone else. You were never allowed to be alone.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Now, you said that you didn't know anything about the first set of murders.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Right? I thought there were practice runs and sessions that Tex Watson gave to you guys on how to stab someone.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I never had that. And he was doing it -- and there were things going on but personally, my personal experience with him, no.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Do you mean --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That doesn't mean it wasn't happening because there was so many people and so many things going on. But just my personal experience with Tex, that didn't have any -- Tex never said to me, this is how you stab or that. But I do know people were talking about this end of the world and what, you know, and what would it be to try to survive and how to fight back.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What about the Creepy- Crawly Missions?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That was going to get dune buggy. That's exactly what that meant. It meant, it meant going in, somehow it got named by Manson or someone, I don't even know who decided on that word, but it meant going out and robbing and stuff. Yeah, getting things. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you participate in a Creepy-Crawly?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That was to go get the dune buggies. I went out on a -- I went out and stole. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. I thought it was also crawling into people's home and then leaving doors open or --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- stuff like that. None of that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I never heard that, I'm sorry, no. I've never heard that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So did Manson do anything to prepare you for this first set of murders, other than what you've said already indoctrinating you with his ideology?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I mean, the only preparation is yeah, exactly, the ideology. Making me just, us and them philosophy, and this war that he was creating, and this God-like figure that he created for himself. No, that was all -- that was all his bit, no one ever said no.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And he'd train you on some of the -- although, I have used -- we did use weapons at the ranch. I've had, not him, but I've had someone else to show me how to use a gun. We went out and did just some shooting in the back of the ranch.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When did that happen?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: They had -- there was -- God, I can't even remember his name. We did have weapons, we had lots of weapons at the ranch. We had guns, and knives. We had a shotgun, and so I went out with a couple of gals, and a guy and used a shotgun. And we practiced using shotguns with, you know, like cans, or branches or that kind of thing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm sorry, when did that happen? Prior to the life crime. My reference point is the first set of murders.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay. Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So I think that would help our conversation.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: All right. I would say I probably did that say five, six months. I mean, because we did have a -- or four months. It would be around that time, that. You know, we had these weapons at the ranch, and we had these guns.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I just went out and did, you know, shooting of like cans and branches. I learned how to use a shotgun, because they were always saying that we were going to be under attack, and we used to put people up on the rooftops of the ranch with guns all night long to be like lookouts, incase somebody came. Because for a while they -- Manson kept coming up with these ideas that we were going to be under attack by bikers, we're going to be under attack by different people. And so we had people up on the rooftops that were using guns, and they usually had things like shotgun in case there was going to -- in case we were raided, and people were going to try to have, I guess like, I don't know. A gun fight, some like that, I don't know. But we did do that, we had. That just reminded me when you were say I had forgotten about that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So during these meetings, did he teach you about the race war?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: At certain, yeah, at certain times he would talk about that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What did he teach you would be your role in this race war?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, mine was supposed to be going down into this hole, we were supposed to -- we were -- we were digging in the desert, we were digging holes, places where we could go first that we could like, stash things, and we could also find stash places to live. They were like little places like, underground that we would dig out, and we'd stock with weapons, food, whatever. And we could live all over the desert. So we were making these living quarters in the ground, in these holes. Then it would be go down into this hole because he always put me in this domestic thing. Then he wanted, God what madness, he wanted me to grow my hair for a blanket.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Grow your hair for a blanket?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes, for him.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And as far as starting the race --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's nuts, I know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So you're preparing for the race war --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- is what I'm hearing you describe. But in terms of starting the race war, how was that going to happen?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: He never said that. He never said exactly how, to me, that I was going to be any part of that, or I was supposed to do something. Ours was always how we were supposed to make it safe for he and others to survive these, you know, with these holes in the grounds, and these other crazy things that were --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Before the first set of -- the first set of murders, did you, at any point, say to yourself this guy is completely nuts?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You just embraced everything he said?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I just gradually did. I did. I did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah, you're going to have to bear with me here, ma'am. I'm just going to fly through like five pages of questions, and make sure I ask them all, so hang on; okay? You mentioned that some of the ways he would break you is to humiliate you, strip you.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When is the first that happened?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably about -- oh, well, the humiliation started pretty quick, I mean, just by the way he'd talk all of a sudden. You know, I was ugly, and you know, and all that. I mean, he would start, you know, in front of people, you know, degrade you. So that had started pretty quickly on the road about, you know, I don't know, probably a couple of months into it all of a sudden that would come out. And then all of a sudden it would stop, you know, again, it was that, you know, be kind, and then, you know, do something awful.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay, but --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And it was that arbitrary, never knowing what was going to happen, but he would, yeah, I'd say it started with that. And then during acid trips he'd stand me, like stand me up naked, and then talk about my body and how bad it was.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: How often did that happen?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It happened a couple of times, in one way or another, different ways. Or talk to other people when you were there. I mean, it was a - - it was just part of the -- it was part of the life.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When did that happen in reference to the first set of murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That could have happened a week in front of the murders. I mean, I was always being, you know, if I wasn't -- I liked taking care of the children because it just kind of took me out of everybody's reach. So but anytime I was around him, he would, you know, it depending on what was going on. If he didn't -- if I didn't do anything just exactly as was supposed to happen, then there was always some kind of repercussion. I mean, like if I -- if I, you know, if I fixed, like I don't even know, (inaudible) if I fixed a meal he didn't like, you know, I either got it fed to the dog, and then talked about me on how, you know, what an idiot, you know, what a -- you know. That I can't do anything, that I'm stupid, and I'm dumb, or -- it was just a constant degradation when he --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I understand.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- you know, something didn't go --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I'm just more interested in the stripping part. You said it only happened maybe a couple of times?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. In the -- in the acid trips, or -- yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When was the last time that happened before the crime?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Crawl at his feet, or --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When was the last time that happened before the first set of murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's hard to place time on all this. I don't know, say a month. Maybe a month, maybe.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Maybe a month and a half, two months, because it was -- he was really getting bad, too. I mean, as far as his responses to things were, he was much more violent, much more -- much more just driven. So things -- tried to stay out of his way more.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When you look back at the two sets of murders, how, if you can quantify to the best of your ability, how much was it the drugs? How much was it Manson? And how much was it just you making the decision to participate in that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I'd have to say that I would have done anything, by that time and that night, I would have done anything he ask.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I would have. Anything. But that -- but doing what -- and being in that mindset was drugs, which made me believe a lot of what I saw and think it was real. There was -- there was this using these drugs for things that were just, I mean, crazy. I mean, I believed there was a hole in the earth, I was growing my hair or a blanket. I had finally -- that was a lot of drugs. We were probably using, I probably used hallucinogens at least a couple hundred times living at the ranch, and it became -- and they were usually under these guided scenarios that he would create. And he would do things like take birds that had, he picked up one bird one time that he said was dead, and blew on it and it came alive. And I just -- my reality, I didn't know, you know, what real reality was as compared to the reality that was being created through the use of the drugs.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And him.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you enjoy killing?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Because I thought I read somewhere that you actually, especially with the LaBianca murders, that you kind of reveled in the murder.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. That is --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You didn't?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why did you commit the -- so after the first set of murders you felt empty, is what you told the Commissioner. Felt nothing.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So when he told you about to go back the second night to murder the LaBiancas, did you know, at that point, the murder was going to happen?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I expected it, yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You did expect it?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So on the drive to find the victims, you knew there was going to be a second set of murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably, yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did at any point in your mind you say, you know, I don't want to do this?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: There was?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: On the drive to the LaBianca murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you do anything about it?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So what did you think about when you say you don't want to do this?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I just continued on with the action.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I just didn't know anything other to do.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Because you didn't --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't know -- I didn't have -- I didn't -- I couldn't think of anything else to do. I didn't know --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Jump out of the car, run?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right, and I should have, but I didn't.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Scared for my own life, I guess, coward.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So did you kill because of love for Manson? Or did you kill because of fear of Manson?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Both.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Oh.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I thought I loved him. I thought -- it started with love, and then turned to fear. And I don't know where the -- where the in between, I don't know where the knife cuts between that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Because this --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And so I have to say both.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Could these murders have happened without drugs involved?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So if you take that out of the equation, you would not have killed for Manson?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I thought I read that after the first set of murders, there was a -- was there a news broadcast the night -- that night after the murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. This is before the LaBianca murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And you watched it?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, Susan did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And she told us about it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And what did you think?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Nothing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: About nothing, you weren't -- you weren't happy about it? You weren't celebrating?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: There was no celebration.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: There was no celebration?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. No. No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What was going through your mind when you're stabbing Mrs. LaBianca? You didn't want to do it, but you're doing it, what was going through your mind?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I just know that, like I said, I stabbed her once in the collar, and I looked at Leslie, and she went and called Tex and we were out of there. That what I know. That's what the facts are. That's what I did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Was it fun to you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: The second set of murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Where'd you get the idea to stab Mr. LaBianca with a fork?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, Mr. LaBianca, I just went in the kitchen and that's what I saw in the drawer.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, I just curious whether you got that idea from somewhere.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Just decided to stab him with a fork?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you leave the fork in his stomach?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Is that what happened? What was the point of that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I guess I thought that was witchy, which is what I was asked to do.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And you guys ate and drank milk afterwards, is what I -- is my understanding. Is that correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I didn't, it was taken -- it was taken from the house, though.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: It was taken from the house? Okay. Well, what was that all about?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Tex said to take it, he wanted something.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You guys didn't have a discussion on the way home after the LaBianca murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not really, no. We didn't, and we had to find a -- we had to hitchhike, so there was really, you know, it was trying to find someone to pick us up.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And when -- and so when we did, it was just Tex talked casually to the guy that was driving us.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You mentioned that you were with the children a lot, and you did the cooking. How many children are we talking about, and what age range are we talking about?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, they were babies, it was anywhere from say one to three children.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: One to three.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: One, or one, two or three children at any time.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And whose children are these?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: There was Mary Brunner's child, and Susan Atkins' child, and Linda Kasabian's child.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. And how old were they, do you know?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, they were from like, they were -- Mary's was we delivered Mary's, so we had the child from birth. So it, maybe up to one, 1-1/2 by the time we were busted, because Mary had a child pretty early on. Susan had a child probably maybe up to one year.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Linda's kids were maybe -- her daughter was like about three or something, two or three.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: There was an arrest that was mentioned in your file, a '68 arrest where you gave LSD to a 17-year-old boy, the mother came and he was found shaking, nervous, hallucinating. And the allegation was that, Susan, and the other women gave him the LSD. What's that all about?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: When we were up in Ukiah, we ran into some guys up there, and they wanted some LSD. And we gave it to them, and I guess, I think Susan had given it to them. And then they came back later to the residence where we were, and there was two of there with a child, and they raped us. And so what happened when we went to court is the attorney, we told the attorney that we had -- we would like to file counter charges because they came to the -- and raped me, and (inaudible). So they took it to court, and they dropped it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why do you think Manson chose you? I mean, I know you mentioned to the last Panel that he must have trusted you. But what is it about you do you think that Manson felt that you were capable of murder?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I was like one of the first people there, and he had -- so he felt confident that I was, you know, I guess one of his -- somebody that would do anything for him. He felt confident that I would do it, that I would do absolutely anything for him.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But he felt that with everyone there, really.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, he was right about you though; right? Because you followed through on the murders.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That's true, and --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, anything else other than you were one of the first ones there, and that you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, because he had been with me for two years.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I guess I was just curious. Did you do anything else, beyond what you've already -- we've already discussed in the last, I guess, almost four hours now, that made him believe that he can trust you? Did you do anything else for him? And you've done enough, trust me, but I was just curious if there's anything else we're missing.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. No. No. Not that --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not that I -- I was a good soldier, so.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You know, we saw that famous scene with the three of you guys walking out during the trial with your head shaved. What was that all about?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Manson asked us to shave our heads because it meant that you were out of the norm, you were sane, you know, you were telling, you know, society I don't -- that was the axe in all that. I had seen myself out of society, I'm not like any of you, I'm, you know, we're our own -- we're our own thing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So he was still calling the shots while you were going through trial?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When did he stop calling the shots for you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: When we -- when we finally got out of trial, because he was -- he pretty much ran them. Yeah. He ran our attorneys, he ran the trial, he told us what to do all during trial. We would meet with him in a room below the judge's bench, and all the attorneys would meet with us in that place. And he would designate what we were going to do that. Whether we were going to get up and scream, or do whatever. And so it didn't end until we were separated, and sent to death row.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And did he tell you how he wanted you to run your trial, your case?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What did he want you to do?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We were not severed. Lyn Fromme was sleeping with my attorney. He had saw to it that everything was designated the way he wanted it to run, he wanted to -- he thought for certain that we were going to take it all, and he would walk free. That was his belief, and he really believed that. He thought he was going to get out of this completely. And so that all of this would do that. And then Susan started talking, and things changed.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I was going to talk to you about some reprogramming, Commissioner, but I don't want to go too far ahead.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: About some, what's that?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: How she was reprogrammed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Maybe in post. I do have one question. When you went back to Alabama, was there ever an intent or did you ever make an effort to get back to California and rejoin the Manson Family?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I didn't. I was -- I wasn't there that long before I was arrested. But no, I had no intent at that point.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I had met some people there, I was still taking drugs. I was looking for drugs there which, I guess, had finally made their way to Alabama.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And I was -- oh, met a guy named Jim, and we were -- and he had some friends, and I was staying at his place. I left, I didn't stay with my mom, I stayed at his place. And I just, I didn't know what was going to happen. I just was staying there. I don't think I -- I wasn't planning on going back because the phone calls from Lyn saying, I don't know. If Lyn had said come back, I'd have made a point of, I guess, of going back at that point. I just know that it was, at that point, for the whole time I was there until I was arrested, and arrested, I hadn't -- I hadn't thought of going back. It wasn't -- I wasn't that my intent.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So if you hadn't thought of going back, so was it a thought where I'm done, that's in my past now. I'm just going to try and stay out, or what?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I don't think that was anything in my head, because I just really -- I really - - everything was so jumbled. My thoughts were all jumbled, and I didn't seem to fit. I certainly didn't fit in talking with my mother, my mother didn't seem to know who I was. And we weren't connecting because I had all these crazy ideas. And so the family, I had to leave that so I ran into some people who were, you know, drug addicts, and I felt comfortable there. So that's what I did, I went to where I felt most comfortable and stayed in touch with Lyn.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. I'm ready to move to post-conviction.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Before I do that, Commissioner, I wanted to ask, what do you think of Manson today?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, to say, I mean, you know, to say I hate him is probably light words, but he is just, you know, he's the epitome of everything that is ugly to me. I mean, he's a pedophile, he slept with girls that were 12 years old at the ranch, 13 years old, 14 years old, 15-year-old. He is a man who uses every single thing that comes in his way for power and control. He's violent, abusive, I mean, I -- he's horrid. He's a horrid, petty, mean, ugly man. I don't know what -- he's the worst. He's the worst that can be produced.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But you knew he was sleeping with 12, 13-year-olds then; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I never thought about it. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did that -- did it bother you then?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: A couple of times things that he did, I mean, his violence against some of these people. But I didn't think about it because we were all -- it was all this communal living.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And before I forget, on page 15 of 21, the second to the last paragraph you said something very interesting. You said, I was feeling -- I was feeling up to living in that environment, things getting violent, there were guns at the ranch. A lot of drugs, people there I didn't know, so I tried to avoid it. I tried to avoid so many things.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Isn't that right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I guess my question is, I mean, from that statement, it just sounds like you knew things were getting violent and you tried to avoid it. How does a girl who went from I knew things were being violent, and I tried to avoid it. How did you go from that to committing seven murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: By continuing to just allow myself to go with the plan by not leaving, by not leaving.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And you didn't leave because you felt your life was in danger because of the violence in the past, I think you've said that many times.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Is that why you didn't leave?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That's yes. That's part of it. And I avoided it, like I tried to avoid, when I was growing up when my sister screamed, I would try to get away from it. That's what I did. When I saw things, or felt things that were uncomfortable, I'd just try to avoid them.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Were there other reasons why you didn't leave?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because, well, in the beginning, I kept thinking somehow that I still cared for him. I never saw what was eventually going to happen to happen. I mean, if what we had a lot of people at the -- at times there who were also with the bikers, have a -- are kind of a in a -- they have a rather culture of violence, too. They were rather, at times when they would come up, and be around us and stuff like that they were rather violent. And they have a culture that's filled with drugs, and all that, too. And they're definitely violent with women. So there was -- so some of the stuff that was at the ranch was just, unfortunately, and not just from us, but from others. It wasn't -- it just didn't -- so I was -- and I spent time taking care of children, doing domestic duties, so it allowed me to go away and do other things.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I took care of the babies.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Let's talk post conviction. So your record is exemplary. Never had any violations; is that correct?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Except the one in '88.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And there was, I think, back in '77 there was an issue with some investigation regarding weapons. I don't think that came out -- anything came out of that. Did you take any domestic violence --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- in the past?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. When was the last time you took Domestic Violence?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I was in CWAA, and then I stopped to take leadership and then another group came in at the same time. But I took it for years, and I have other groups that cover --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But what --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: We cover domestic violence in the 12 steps, too.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What did they teach you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Codependency.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What did they teach you about domestic violence, and how did it apply to you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I saw myself in a lot of it because it's that it's loving someone who is at all -- that I lowered all my self-worth, my beliefs and allowing myself to just continue to find some kind of justification to stay when I should have left. And that, you know, and the power and control issues that, you know, in domestic violence that you have, that men can have over women. And I never decided to leave, I never decided to try to change.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did they teach you about the cycle of violence?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And what is your understanding as to what was the -- or what is the cycle of violence?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Again, that's starting off with that, is that it's first having this kind of love relationship, thinking that somehow if I continue to placate, or allow, or give up part of myself to please someone because I had been a people-pleaser to that things would somehow correct. But they don't, and upon having those times of violence, not to stay and to try to move on because there certainly was never going to be a time where he was going to change his behaviors. And trying to look for the red flags, which start with the demeaning, the dehumanizing, all the things which start in a relationship that tell you this is not going anywhere. This is a person who does not perceive of you as an equal when you cannot express what you feel, when you cannot make decisions, when you cannot do the things which are in a trusting and a good relationship.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did they teach you about the honeymoon phase?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What did they teach you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, that it's always that beginning where everything seems fine, and you're loved, and you're told all these grand things and you think you're okay, and then of course it turns, eventually, it either red flags come out, it's not so good. There's control issues that, you know, you start beginning to see the small -- the small things change. And there's always that, you know, I like -- that's what I had with him at the beach, you know, being, you know, thinking that I was falling in love, lust, you know, loving, you know, and thinking somehow it was reciprocated, you know. And eventually, of course, that falls apart, because that was never the intent on his side.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I see it looks like you were given a seven-year denial in a 2009 hearing. Since then, you've --

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: 2011.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I mean --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: '11.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But I wrote down -- I apologize. Since then you've been participating in self-help in earnest, so I do commend you for that. It looks like a few of the groups that you participate in, you've been doing that solidly for the last five years, which is Pathways to Wholeness, Emotions Anonymous. You also did the Long-Termer Organization, focused on pretty much all issues that we would want you to focus on, insight, causative factors, honesty, minimization, all those things, relapse prevention plan. So I didn't see AA/NA, but it appears to be part of Pathways to Wholeness; is that right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Yes. That's a 12 step, it's an ongoing 12 step.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So are you comfortable with the 12 steps as we sit here today?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. I try to do it as often as I can. I use them as my guide to live by them. It's a -- it's clarity, and it -- and although, I mean, I don't use drugs, it's the best thing there is for codependency for all of it because it's doing that check-in all the time with myself to see what I'm doing. It's doing an inventory, it's admitting constantly, I don't have control over things. It's look at my defects. You know, it's a constant way of just living a life, and I share that all the time with people here because drugs are just, they're, you know, prevalent here. People are using them, people are trying to get away from them. We share that common -- that common ground of drug use. And so AA, as I believe, is one of the absolute best ways out of drugs addiction that there is because it's just -- it just a day-to-day way of life, you know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So that is your way of life now?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It is.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: The AA principles.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Yes. The 12 step, yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Your relapse prevention plan, I thought it was interesting, but I'm not saying I'm troubled by it, it's just very short. It's just a one-page that discusses your triggers. Is it because you've incorporated it so much in your life that you just feel comfortable, you don't need a more thorough written relapse prevention plan?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I mean, I could have -- I could certainly write it longer and longer, I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: It's not what you write --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was just --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- it's what you know.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know, yeah. I mean, I just sat down, and I just looked at pretty much the, you know, these are the things that do it. If there is, you know, I mean, I can speak to any of it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What is your sobriety date?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That's, I would say it was '81. I have always said '81, but I couldn't tell you exactly the day, I just know I said then. I would smoke marijuana, and I didn't think to myself gee, I'm stopping. But I stopped, I've never used it since. I've never used anything since. I didn't think exactly, because I didn't like it, I didn't like the way I feel, I didn't like the idea that it connected me back to a time that I didn't want to deal with anymore in that sense. I don't want to be even anything of what I was then.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's a frightening thing to me to do that drug, to remind me of where I had been in that, you know, in that place. So I just know that I was smoking marijuana in about '81, '80 or '81, right at that point, and I didn't think then, gee, I'm going to quit. But I realized as years go by, I never ever again. And I didn't really get into AA/NA until almost '85 because I couldn't. The group was at night, and I was closed custody. And the minute I became from closed custody, I had gone to some psychiatric groups and stuff, and where we discussed drugs. But I got into AA, and I was finally allowed to get to the group. And it was like, I think, 1985.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. But you have been in custody since the early seventies; right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes, and I had lots of psych groups.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So why did you --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But you, at night you couldn't go out in closed custody, when they had all these evening groups.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But what --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's really strange, that was the policy then. But I had psych groups, quite a few, and I did my work there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Were you using pot between the seventies and '81?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Some, yes. Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So I guess, why '81? Why is it '81 that you decide that you don't want, because the drugs remind you of the past? Why '81? Why wasn't it sooner? I don't understand.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, it was probably because I was working in education, and I was -- I was doing all the education things, and getting my degree. That it all seemed so stupid to be using drugs for any reason whatsoever.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, what education are you speaking of?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was getting my bachelor's degree, and it all just seemed really ridiculous to be using any kind of drug for any reason, because I want my head clear, I want to know what I'm thinking at all times. I want to be clear.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What was it in those classes that made you feel that way? You said you were starting taking education, what did you learn that made you realize hey, maybe I shouldn't be doing this?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I learned that the only way to learn is to have a clear mind, that I enjoyed learning, that I enjoyed what I was reading, that I enjoyed the studies, the women's studies, I enjoyed learning about things. And I got myself involved in it, and the idea of taking drugs seemed absolutely absurd, because all that does is make you unable to do your tests, unable to write your papers, unable to read, and understand, and comprehend the things I needed to do.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: This crime happened in 1969.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What year do you think you really came out of the influence of Manson?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: When I was on death row, the incident that stands out when I'm asked or I talk to other about when I realized that I started to make a decision, a decision to go the other way and accept the past was when I was on death row. Mary Brunner and Catherine Share came to -- they were from the ranch, they're two people that were at the ranch. And they came here because they had been arrested for a robbery, and when they got here they came to -- I was in a unit called SSU, which they created at the back of this prison for me. And of our -- let me try to explain where we had -- it was just us. It was just myself, Susan and Leslie. And then they brought Mary Brunner and Catherine Share, the death penalty being abolished, so they had a lock-down unit, an SSU or a SHU. You wouldn't understand it, it's very small, just for us. And so they brought them, and they came. And when they came in, they had -- they said that they were with a guy named Kenneth Como, who was in the county jail, and that Manson had had a card game with him and that he had won us. He had won the three of us in this card game that Manson played with him, and that he gave them instructions to come here and that we were all to escape together. And they brought hacksaw blades in, they had them up their ass, and they brought them in. And they said to us well, you now belong to Kenneth Como, that's what happened and we're all going to escape. And we have the blades to do it. And that's when I realized that I said no, I'm not. I'm not going with you, you do whatever you want to do. I'm done. And that's really what happened, and when I think back, I think that's the time when I realized I have now said no to the -- to what can be called the family, to the people, to what was my past. And I said no, I'm not.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And what year was that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That was probably '74, maybe '73, '74, '73, I don't know when they came. I know that we were off by '71, it'd be '72, '73, maybe '74.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And when is the last time you used LSD?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably 1977.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: While you were incarcerated?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: How did you get ahold of that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Someone had it. I mean, I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why? Why were you using in '77, four years after you say you broke free of Manson's grip?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I didn't think of that as being him at that point. That's why that was the last time I ever took that, too. Because I realized that only took me right back, and it was horrible.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: How many times did you use LSD while you were incarcerated?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Once.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Just that one time?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes, and that was the end of that, and then the marijuana was the end in '81.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And what was that experience like?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: The acid? It was horrible. It was absolutely horrible.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because it made me feel like I was connected with him again. It made like for a connection, because everything that I had ever know with LSD was pretty much controlled with him, and I felt absolutely, I felt like I could -- I could reach out and touch him, and it absolutely just -- that was it. It was horrible, so that was the end of that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So you didn't -- so you made more of a connection to him through the experience of LSD than smoking pot?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, yes. Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. So you, I mean, you've taken a lot Convicted Women Against Abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, Victim Awareness, Insight courses and I believe you also facilitated Alternatives to Violence Project.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. And you are a dog trainer?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So I know it's been many, many years, but what have you learned? As you sit here today, what have you learned about yourself through all this self-help?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: This is hard, but I've learned to trust myself again on my own decisions, and enjoy making them. I feel comfortable, starting to feel comfortable in my skin. I feel that I've enjoyed learning to be creative, and finding times and places to be able to sit, and discuss my story with others, and relate with people and see that the more that I am open about who I was, and what I had done, I, you know, I'm able to have better relationships with everyone, that being, you know that finding myself again is the only way that, you know, being in recovery is the only to be for me to live. Is that I -- is that I have to recovery those pieces so that in any small measure, I can, you know, give back, try to lead a life where I can help others. That I -- that I find myself in just trying to be the best person I can possibly be.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What do you think your values were when you were with Manson?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I had none. I valued nothing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well, you valued something, you wanted his love.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, but I created this illusion of what I thought I was going to get from him, that somehow he was going to fulfill something in me and there is absolutely nothing anyone is going to fulfill in me. Only I can fulfill in me whatever my needs may be. I was looking for someone else to get purpose to my life, I was looking for someone else to give me direction. I was looking outside myself for anything, for approval, for love. I was looking outside, and I don't look outside for anything anymore, I take care of myself.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So what do you value today?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I value absolutely everything. I value -- I value people, and their, you know, and I value the kind of dogs, and the sun as, you know, I value life and the sacredness that it is, that we are all sharing this planet together. I try to -- I try to allow, every day, to remember how fragile we all are, and how beautiful we all are. You know, I allowed myself to go to somewhere I -- that is hard to imagine such darkness anymore, because I at least try to come out and appreciate all that is. You know, I'm -- the world is a beautiful and remarkable place, and what's really beautiful is watching people gain footing in their struggles.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So I guess it's safe to say that you don't think you're a danger to society anymore?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, I'm not. That I know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Why? Why not?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because I absolutely hold no values that would ever harm anyone else. I try not to harm anyone in the smallest ways. I am very -- I know what words can do, I know what actions can do, I know what even thinking can do. So I try to stay away from all forms of violence, which are verbal, and mental, and physical. And I try to find always ways to learn how to find compromise, and how to facilitate the ideas that always bring people together so situations are win-win. Or you know, so that people become better than they were, because that's how I've learned because people have helped me do that to find a better, and easier, and peaceful ways and peaceful solutions to all -- to whatever comes before me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Are you worried about relapsing in the community?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, I'm not worried about relapsing because I would always having someone in my life that's, you know, is probably in recovery. I would always have a sponsor, I would always attend meetings. I enjoy them, so I enjoy the people I know that do them.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Do you have a sponsor at this point?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Here, we kind of sponsor each other, but I have people that will offer me sponsors out there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But I do, I mean, I've had people to sponsor, and I have sponsored.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So it's kind of a give-take.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. So it looks like you have a GED, you've got an AA, you got a BS from the University of La Verne.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: In human services.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Services, yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. And you've got a few vocations under your belt. Which one have you completed? I know you're a certified pet, dog trainer. I think you did mural painting, graphic arts. Which one did you complete?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I completed graphic arts, I completed electronics, I completed, at that time it was data entry, but it hasn't -- it doesn't even look like what this is now. That's so dated that it's, you know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And the most recent is certification for dog trainer.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. As far as parole plans, it looks like you got accepted to Harbor Area Halfway House. Is that where you're planning to go? What's your long -- and then, what is your long term goal? Who are you going to stay with?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was looking, I have an acceptance letter, too, from Crossroads.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: She also wrote Crossroads, but I know if you have them.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I don't think I have it. Thank you.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah, they supposedly sent one to you, but they -- Crossroads, too. I asked for both because I am -- they're both where many of the women now have gone to either one, and I would definitely need a transitional house. I have --

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: It's not in that one.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: You know, I would -- I would need help, oh my goodness.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So your first choice is Crossroads or Harbor Area?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Harbor --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- would be my first, but actually I don't -- I think both of them, either one that would, you know, I know they both accept me. I don't think that they, you know, I think either one would great. They would both be, you know, ones that could probably help me with the needs that I would have.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. And then you have a number of friends out in the community that wrote letters of support. I have a Josephine Ehrlich, and she's known you for 30 years.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And she's offered financial, emotional, whatever support you need in your transition. All right. Then a Tonya Kara (phonetic), known you, childhood friend?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So they also offer to help in any way they can, including financially. How are you planning on supporting yourself financially other than your friends helping you out in the beginning?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I would look for any kind of possible employment I could get. You know, it might be difficult, I'm elderly. But I would certainly try to find somewhere to work with animals. CST, that's said at times, and they were going to write a letter, I don't know what happened to it, that they would -- they've have one before from some of the others. You know, they would help me, and give me work if I needed, training dogs, because I've been training dogs for about 15 years. So they're a non-profit that said that they would do that. I would certainly work in some -- with animals if I could, ASPCA.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Do you qualify for social security?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I don't think Social Security, because I don't have -- I don't have enough work time in on this --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah, I was going to ask you that.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. I don't have any time for that, so I would fall under, I guess, SSI, or I don't -- I'm a little uncertain as to what the financial things would be.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Do you have money set aside at this point? I mean, anything saved up for yourself?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, not really. I do have some friends, though, that are willing to help me, you know, get --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- get settled and do some things.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So ultimately you, I mean, in the long run, your goal is to live by yourself, or with a friend?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I think, in the long run, I would hope to probably live with someone, certainly. Because I don't think I can afford anything by myself. But it would probably be with someone. My cousin has offered housing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Is that Sandra?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I would live with my cousin.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Sandra Reeves?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Sandra Reeves.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: But it would be out of state, and I have another friend, Susan Lucas (phonetic), who is also out of state that's offered me a place to live with her. And I have someone in San Diego that said similar, so I don't, you know, I would eventually hope to transition to either, you know, after, you know, after I gain my footing, to live with someone and probably out of state.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. All right. I mean, I'm looking at all your laudatory chronos, I don't think your behavior in the institution is an issue. Everything you do, people say you're dependable, hardworking, extremely skilled, all positive comments by staff here. Okay. And then I did review the two apology letters, the Folger Family, LaBarge Family, Mr. Frank. What is that, Struthers?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Struthers.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Sorry. Okay. And I've reviewed all the general support letters. I think some of these people don't even know you. It's a summary that your attorney submitted.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Well, that's -- those are comments from -- there's a comment section to --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: There's a recent film, people who saw that wrote about what they saw.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Oh, okay. New York Times comments. Got it.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Yeah, we took that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. Okay. So as far as family members, you have your cousin, and who else was out there?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: My cousin.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: It's just your cousin?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And everybody else, I'm reading here, are friends.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Are friends, yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I really don't have much family left, although I've gotten a couple -- my sister's daughter connected with me, so --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Your sister's daughter has what?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Connected with me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Recently, which was really, really amazing, so I don't, you know, I have what would be considered a little bit of family. She'd be a niece.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. All right. Anything else about your programming, or your parole plans, anything? Did I miss anything that you'd wish to highlight further?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Yeah, I don't think you talked about the Victim Offender Education Group.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yes.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Did you talk about that?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yes, thank you.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Because I have one recent chrono that may or not be in the file for participation in the Next Step Program.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Yeah, I see it.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: This is from December. You have -- have you seen this? I never know how much makes it into the electronic version versus what's in the --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I figure anything I miss, you guys --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: You can always --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. That was --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- cover.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yeah. They just did not --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Thank you.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm afraid they --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay. So the Next Step Program is offered to the graduates of the Victim Offender Education Group. Okay. Would you like to tell me more about this Next Step Program?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: The Next Step Program is an outshoot from the Victim's Offender Education Program, and then the next step is working with a book that's called Houses of Healing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Right.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So it's trying, it again, it just promotes more healing. Because after you came out of VOEG, it is, you know, it's that particular group is the one that, you know, really opens up a lot of different ways of writing out your history, the crime, how different things that affect, you know, victims. It's such an intense program that afterwards, what they want you to do is offer what they call The Next Step, so that we could go further in trying to, you know, look at all those things, what took place in VOEG. And you know, internalize them even more, the things we've learned.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: What did -- what have you learned --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: And things.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- and The Next Step Program?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: With VOEG, there is -- the most unbelievable part of that program is that in VOEG, it's based on restorative justice, which I know is just, you know, somewhat of a new concept, I guess. It is, and it isn't. And what you do is you work towards, in that program, getting to be honest enough with yourself that at the end of the program you meet -- we met for three weekends with victims of violent crime. And these people come in, and we, as offenders, we tell our stories to them, and they tell their stories to us.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Of the loss that they suffered from people who are similar to us. And it is without a doubt the most profound experience I've ever had here because to listen to and watch these people come in, and speak of what we have done to their lives, and to meet with them, and talk with them and share with them, too. And be able to say this is what and who I am, and this is what I've done, and it just -- it's unbelievably profound to be able to just be honest from both sides, and touch, and be able to say from our side, and for me, I can say to them how terribly sorry I am. And they just look you in the eye, say they accept it and we talk. It's absolutely amazing to meet people who want -- who are sharing with you in your healing that have been affected so horribly, too, by someone like myself. It's --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: How did that help --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: -- better than --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: -- you connect with the victim's family, like the ones in this room right now?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, completely, because I hear what it's like to, from someone that says, you know, they hear a bell, or they smell a scent, or they hear something and it goes back to the memories, you know, that each little thing every day, every moment you are reminded of someone that you loved, and that you shared with, that you valued and they're not there anymore. And they're not there anymore because someone took them from you. Someone deprived you of all the possibilities and the memories that you would have had, and that you would have grown with. I spoke with people who lost children, people who lost their husband, brothers, it was amazing. I mean, there was a whole like what it is like to live a life without someone.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Go ahead, I'm sorry.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That's all right. That was taken unnecessarily, was taken by violence.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did VOEG, in VOEG did you learn -- what did they teach you about forgiveness? Did that topic come up?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes. Yes. We had to look often at forgiveness because there has to be a, not the expectation that someone's ever going to give it. I don't expect anyone to forgive me for what I've done, but I have to find ways to forgive myself, because otherwise, I can't live with myself. And that's a -- that's definitely a trigger if I can't get up in the morning, feel good what I'm about to do, that why not use drugs, you know. Why not be in that reality? Why not? So you have to work very hard to find a way to forgive the person that I was, and to continue to forgive, just on a daily basis, the mistakes I made. When I get up, and if I'm kind of mad, or short to somebody and forget what that every action is a ripple in the water. Every little action, every word is a ripple.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Have you -- have you forgiven yourself?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not completely, I don't believe that'll ever happen. I don't know how I could ever, because I'll always be that, but that's what keeps me, I believe it keeps me working towards and going forward with everything. And being more conscious of who I am, and how everything I do has an effect. So I mean, I forgive myself, and at time I feel yes, like I have. And then, I realize maybe not so much, but it keeps -- it just -- it's something that I will deal with for the rest of my life.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: When in the moments when you feel that you have forgiven yourself, what are you saying to yourself to get to that point? How do you forgive yourself?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That the person I am now is not who that person was, and this person is worthy of forgiveness, this person has done the work. That I live by the values and try to -- and try to live by the AA/NA. I try to live by the precepts of the 12 steps. I try to, you know, live within my higher power, and how I believe that my higher power works within me. That I am -- that I have become a worthy individual, and that I have something to give that, you know, that everything I do, it's not just meaningless. So I find it in training dogs, you know, knowing that they're going to go to someone who is disabled, or a vet that has PTSD, that this dog will change their lives. So somehow I've touched something and made it better.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Not worse.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Did VOEG, or any of your other self-help programs teach you about how to handle the fact that no matter what you say or what you do, it's not going to bring any measure of comfort to the victim's family? How did -- what did they teach you about how to handle that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Is that all you can do is accept that that's the way they feel. I can't change how someone feels about things, at all. I am not here to ask you to feel any way about anything because you have a right to how you feel. Just like I have a right to my feelings, and how I think, which I know at a point in time I wasn't -- I had been told I don't even have a right to that. I mean, living with someone like Manson, I didn't even have a right to think or feel how I ever wanted to. I was supposed to be this. But so I mean, it's really important, it's very important that I always know I have a right to how I feel, but so do you. I am not here to change anything. I am not here to ask. I am not asking for forgiveness. That is something that everyone has to come to. If someone has injured me, I have to come to my own decisions on whether I wish to forgive or not. There's no -- I would never do that. That's not for my -- I can't ask that, and that's -- and I've been, you know, and I've learned that through groups. There's no way that I'd do that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It's for everyone to feel the way they want, and I respect it totally.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. Anything else about your programming, your parole plans, anything else that you wish the Board to know?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Not that I -- not that I can think of.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: I don't have any more.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I think it's been covered.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. Thank you. And I did want to make a comment about the petition that you brought up earlier, and the notice or rather some opposition. You know, we went through, of course we didn't see anything on file. We do have in, which in the confidential, we do have numerous letters of opposition. I'm quite sure these are probably similar in nature. Because we don't have immediately access to them, I know you have some right there. Don't know right now whether they would be weighed confidential or not. So what best I can do, or what I would like to do, is if you -- we'll give you some extra time during your closing if you want to kind of summarize. I know, I believe you mentioned there was a great number of notations or a great number of -- a list of folks that had sent in comments. So if you want to just kind of give us a summary of it, we'll accept that.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: The only problem is I need to be able to access my email in order to get the full file of it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Have you read those?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I have skimmed them, but I can't -- I was hoping that they would have actually been here somewhere, so I wouldn't feel comfortable in summarizing them without being able to view them again.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I see. I see. Well, like I said, at this point, because we don't have them, and without seeing them, like I said, I'm quite sure it's probably very similar to what we already have on file.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well, I actually think Ms. Tate can speak to that when she speaks, because she's read most of them.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. That'd be fine. So at this point what I'm going to do is I'm going to go over the Comprehensive Risk Assessment. And you know, a lot of the information that's contained in this Risk Assessment we've talked about to this point, so I'm not going to go back over that information. I'm just going to talk about some of the areas that we haven't spoken to today; okay?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So a review of prior Psychological Examinations, Risk Assessments. You had a Risk Assessment in 2009, where Dr. Larmer had concluded that you presented a low risk of future violence. Provided a diagnosis of Poly substance Dependence in a Controlled Environment. The doctor opined that you've demonstrated significant insight into your personality characteristics at the time of the crime and was remorseful for your actions. The only other listed Psychological Evaluation was that of 2007 by Dr. Reed, who also concluded that you presented a low -- excuse me -- a low risk of violent recidivism. There's no diagnosis of any major mental health disorder. Analysis of Clinical Factors. We, we've pretty much covered that and it's, it's a discussion with you concerning the life crime. On page -- your description, you answered some questions that the doctor presented and, like I said, we pretty much covered that during those discussions here. The doctor then, on page 18, under Other Risk Considerations, doctor considers factors of youth. On page 19, second paragraph, the doctor said, her behavior reflects characteristics of transient hallmarks of youth and diminished culpability due to (inaudible) and impulsivity and inability to adequate, adequately perceive the long-term consequences of your behavior. Family substance abuse, susceptibility to negative influence of your, of your older sister. Lack of belonging, feeling accepted by family and excessive risk-taking. Towards the end of that area, the doctor concludes that you've demonstrated significant change and growth. The doctor talks about factors of Elderly Parole, states that, in her assessment, you're fairly healthy with no major medical problems, no evidence that organic age-related issues, such as physical or cognitive decline, will impact your ability to parole successfully. And the doctor feels that your risk of violence appears to be mitigated by your current age. Overall, the doctor had concluded that you presented a low risk of violence. So at this time, I'd like to move to clarifying questions. And I'll begin with the Deputy District Attorney.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Commissioner, is it possible to take a short break before we start that?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: We sure can.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: The time's approximately 2 p.m. We'll take a break.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: We're back on record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Time's approximately 2:15 p.m. All the same parties that were present prior to the break are back in the room at this time. We were going to move to clarifying questions, but before we get to clarifying questions, we have just one more question of you, okay?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Thank you, Commissioner. I don't think I got the answer to this question. At what point did Manson move from just being a normal guy, likes to play music, who promised you the world, travel and everything, to a messiah to you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Probably within about, it's maybe, nine months? I mean, it all --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: (Inaudible) before the life crime? Or nine months after you met him?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, not -- after I met him. Oh, about nine months, ten months, maybe close to a year. I, I mean, it's a interesting question. I mean, I, I looked at him the whole time as being somebody special. But I, when you say, messiah, do you mean when I really kind of thought he was somehow in, that these visions he was having and that who he was, was something --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: No. When I use, messiah, because you put him on such a high pedestal, like he's a god, like he knew everything.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: He knew what was going to happen. So you didn't see him -- at some point, you didn't see him as a normal guy, right?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, no. Actually, I mean, from the beginning, I, but, you know, I looked at him as, you know, as somebody that was really so much more smarter than me, more clever than me, more, you know, more able to handle the world than me. He seemed to be sharp and fast, and knew things.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So just an (inaudible) --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So right from the beginning, he seemed, you know, a little different than someone that I had known, but when you said, messiah -- I mean, there's a point where he really at times took on the persona and became like, you know, he thought he was a Christ-like figure.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Well --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: So I was trying to --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: But a year into knowing him and you enter the relationship at that point, were you willing to kill for him? I know you were willing to prostitute for him, but were you willing to kill for him at that point?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I don't believe so then. But by the end of it, there is -- it wouldn't have mattered whether I was given the information prior or not, I would have killed for him. That's the, that's the sad part about it. I would have. If he had said, will you, you know, will you go over there and I would have. But that was very close to the end when that happened.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: So what happened close to the end that made that (inaudible)?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because of the, the absolute development at that time. I think it was the over abundance at that point of this idea of us and them that was just permeating everything, that we were somehow, all of us were somehow on this, endangered, you know, we were in danger somehow and that we were in this war, that we were in this, some kind of war where we were going to be attacked and we were going to somehow, you know, we needed to defend ourselves, you know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: And he did introduce those concepts, I think you said, about six months prior to the --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Right. Is when he started going to a whole different kind of level.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: All right. I have no more questions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Thank you. So let's move to clarifying questions. I'll begin with the Deputy District Attorney.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you. Following up on what Deputy Commissioner Lam was asking, could the Panel please ask the inmate what the people at the Tate residence did that gave the inmate the feeling that she was being attacked.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So here is the question.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I was never attacked.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So let us --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I've never, I've never felt attacked.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: (Inaudible.)

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I never felt attacked by them.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Are you -- so -- let's try to put the question into --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. I attacked them. They didn't attack me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Let's try to put the question into context. So your question, are you hearing that she felt that she was under attack when -- because we didn't hear that --

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Yes. She just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- in her testimony.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: She just told the Panel that there was an over-abundance of the idea of us versus them in the war, that they were going to be attacked.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: And she also talked about that -- that that was her idea of Manson's philosophy. It was an us-versus-them, and that they were going to be attacked. So if they were going to be attacked, what, what was it at the Tate residence that led the inmate to believe that she was now being attacked?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So then I'm going to ask a simple question that may give some clarity. Did you feel -- when you went to the Tate residence, did you feel that they were going or they were the ones that were going to attack you?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. Not at all.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So yeah. So I don't, I don't see the significance in the question based on that.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask the inmate how much the inmate was paid for doing the documentary film, Life After Manson.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Nothing.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: They may or may not ask you that (inaudible).

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Oh, I'm sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yeah, so --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What you want to do, what you want to do is you want to wait because what we do over here --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I'm sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- on this side of the table, is we analyze the questions --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Got it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: -- to make sure they're relevant to the hearing.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: But the -- your answer.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you. Could the Panel please ask the inmate how much money she receives from each sale of the DVD that's sold on the website.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So how is this relevant to her dangerousness?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well, in the, in the Comprehensive Risk Assessment --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: -- she talked about -- it was either the Comprehensive Risk Assessment or in the last hearing, but she talked about wanting to live a life out of the cameras and out of the, out of the media, and she did an interview for a documentary film that was shown around the world at several international film festivals, licensed by Virgin Atlantic, to be shown on airplanes, European DVD release, French DVD release, Australian release, and it, it contradicts what she said about living a life of anonymity and changing her name so that people wouldn't know who she was.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So what's -- give me the question on that? The initial question.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: So my question was how much does the, does the inmate get from each DVD that's sold?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So are you paid for those DVDs?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Nothing. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It does not belong to me.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: How much is the inmate receiving for the poetry that she provided to the producers that go along with each special version of the DVD that's sold.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Do you have a -- is there a number of questions where you're going to ask about how much money she's receiving from different areas? Because, if so, what I'd like to do is just try to sum up, in a way, where we could say -- well, I'll let you sum it up, but --

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well, I just broke it down into the film --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: -- the DVD release and the poetry that she provided.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. So are you receiving anything for the poetry?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No monetary -- nothing. I've gotten nothing for that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I, I just have one more area. Is, is the inmate receiving any money from the licensing deals as a result of the release of these DVDs.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Are you receiving any money?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Nothing. I have received not one penny from any of it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask if the inmate knows whether or not Tex Watson was also under the influence. Not also, but was under the influence of any controlled substance on the night of the first, Tate residence murders?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: You already said, no, right?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Do you know if Tex Watson or any of the other co-defendants were under the influence of any type of controlled substance during the first set of murders at the Tate house?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I never saw him take anything. He said that he had taken, he said that he had taken speed, some kind of speed or something.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: He said to you at the, on the day of or when did you learn that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I learned that at, like, through trial and stuff. That's all I know. I, he's never told me personally. I never saw him ingest anything. I know that he, himself, I think has said that. And I got that from some -- either from some hearing or something, you know. He never said it to me directly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask the inmate what specifically she takes responsibility for.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: In relation to --?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well, let's go with, with the Tate residence murders first. What does she take responsibility for at that house?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So so what's your level of responsibility in, in the murder, the first set of murders?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I, I went to the house so I am basically responsible for everything that took place there because I was there. I, by not stopping it, I am responsible for it. I didn't stop it. I didn't do anything to change the outcome, so I feel totally responsible for every, for all those that were there. I personally killed Abigail Folger. I, and on a, I, had physical connection with her, but I feel totally responsible for everyone that died there at that house that night.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask if the inmate had any -- if the inmate ever stabbed Jay Sebring that night.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Did you ever stab Jay Sebring or any of the other victims that night?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, I did not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask the inmate what she thought Tex as going to do with the rope and the guns at the Tate residence.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So when you saw Tex with the rope and the guns, what were your thoughts?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I definitely thought he probably could use them. I mean, he had them, he had available, but I didn't know what the rope, really -- I had no idea what he would do with the rope. But he did climb, you know, up to -- when we first got there, he climbed, so I thought, you know. I didn't really think about it, but I guess the rope could have been used there. I don't know. But a gun can definitely go off and I heard the first shot that, that killed Steven Parent.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask what the inmate's current relationship is with Leslie Van Houten.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: What's your current relationship with Leslie Van Houten?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I know her. I see her around because we live in a very, you know, very small environment. So that's about it. Sometimes there's groups that we have that are together, be it AA, NA or YEAR or something like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Was there ever a time during your incarceration where they set you apart? Like, maybe sent her to either Valley State Prison at the time or maybe Central California Women's Facility? Did --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. No, they never did. And originally, they kept us back in that small unit together for over 4-1/2 years.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: They kept the three of us --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: And and how long have you just been in an I see her around type relationship. Have you ever -- is it recent or has it been that way since you were housed in the cell together back in the seventies or --

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Doesn't seem relevant, Ms. --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I'm trying, yeah, I am trying to figure out the relevance to the Attorney's question.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well, I'm just trying to find out her -- whether or not she still has a very close relationship with one of her crime partners.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: She already said, no.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: And if so --

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Thank you.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: And if so, for how long she has not had this close relationship.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: How long has it been, have you had a casual relationship with Ms. Van Houten?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Well, I, I mean, we're friendly, but it's not, it's more on -- working relationship. She's on WAC. I was on WAC. We have to meet. You know, we're in a -- groups together, that kind of thing, but she's developed her own, you know, her own set of friends in life and I've, I've done the same, you know. It's -- because I know, you know, it's -- we're two individuals.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask the inmate why she chose to carve the word War in Leno LaBianca's stomach.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So why did you carve the word War in the victim's stomach?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Honestly, I don't remember being the one to do that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Do you remember who did?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No. It would have been Tex. I mean, I, you know, it would have had to have been Tex who did -- deduction, but honestly, I don't remember doing that, having done that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the Panel please ask the inmate why she chose to write the specific words Death to Pigs on the wall at the LaBianca residence.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So why did you choose to write the word Death to Pigs on the LaBianca residence wall?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: A lot of that came out of Manson's interest in some of these songs and some of the things that were going around at that time and there was a lot of that being, that was a lot of that being said in relation to the sixties and some of the things that were going on. And like I said, in the music and some of that -- Manson used that term a lot.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So did someone instruct you to do that -- write that on the wall?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: No, they didn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So you did that on your own?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So --

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Why did -- I'm sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: I'm, I'm thinking about the response. So you did it on your own. So why did you choose to do that, though?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I honestly don't know. It's just that it was a -- terms that were going around at the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: And similarly, could the Panel please ask the inmate why she chose to write the words, specifically, Rise, on the wall at the LaBianca residence.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So first of all, did you write the word Rise on the LaBianca wall?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And and why did you do that?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was probably because of the philosophy that was, that was also generated at the ranch about the blacks rising to the top and taking over. That was part of the Helter Skelter kind of theory kind of thing that Manson had developed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Why did she write it?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: It was part of the philosophy that we had.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I have no more questions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you. Counsel?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: I think the only question is, is about this, this last, talking about writing Death to Pigs and Rise. What did that have to do with the philosophy? And the Helter Skelter. What was the idea about -- we haven't really put it out here on the record.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: That Manson was saying that the blacks would rise up against the government and take over, because they had been the oppressed people. And that they would eventually take over and that would start a, a race war.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: And there've been suggestions, I guess, various reports of -- well, he has said that this, the first night of attacks and murders were intended to kick off this race war? Is that, was that what you understand of this?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I, I didn't really know where it was going, but looking back now and seeing what was done, I guess it was -- he, Manson took a wallet or something and put it down in some toilet somewhere? I mean, I don't, I don't know. It was, it was some place he would, he'd, he put it in some -- was hoping that it would, it would lead back to, I guess, to someone black having done the crime or whatever? That's, that's what I -- it was some, something that I was not privy to any of that. It came out in court. Some of the information that's, I think that's, through court when I was there.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Well, the, the only other question I have is --

INMATE KRENWINKEL: (Inaudible.)

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: -- how -- you'd been with him for about two years. How is it that you didn't know that on this particular night, that there was going to be a murder at the Tate residence?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Because he never discussed his, obviously, his, his, his plans with what was going on. I mean, there was a lot of, there was a lot of separation. As I said, there was a -- which I didn't know -- was about this murder with Gary Hinman and Bobby Beausoleil, and all that took place and I never knew about it until, oh, way, way, way later after every, after everything else. I don't even think I even really knew most of that until I was incarcerated. And which then makes his philosophy for why this crime committed after that doesn't all add up, to me, about what it -- and, you know, and Manson's real ideas were about, so I don't know.

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: That's the only question I had, Commissioner.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. Thank you. I'd like to go with the closing and I'll begin with the Deputy District Attorney.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you. The Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office is opposed to release of this inmate or the finding of suitability at this time for several reasons. First and foremost is that this case falls within the purview of In re Lawrence, at 44 Cal. 4th 1181, 2008. We've talked about the individual murders here. We've talked about the inmate's background. But what we haven't spoken about is the huge impact that this case has had and did have at the time on the American people. In re Lawrence says that, in rare circumstances, the aggravated nature of the crime alone can provide a valid basis for denying parole, even when there is strong evidence of rehabilitation and no other evidence of current dangerousness. This is such a case. These were 7-1/2 of the most brutal murders in the history of the American criminal justice system. The entire geographic region was panic-stricken and fearful that they would be next. The murders were meant -- the purpose of these murders were to instill fear in the community and they were designed to start a civilization-ending race war, the race war between African Americans and Caucasians. The President of the United States at the time weighed in on these murders. The family robbed and murdered Gary Hinman in order to fund their activities, the way to fund their revolution. They stockpiled weapons. They specially outfitted vehicles in order to make their survival and their getaway. They moved supplies out to the desert for this survival. And Manson discussed the ideology with the members of the family. Other crime partners have testified in court. Other witnesses have testified in court. Other crime partners have testified at their parole hearings that there were meetings and sessions where Manson would -- they would take acid and they would discuss the Manson philosophy. They would constantly listen to the Beatles' albums, which gave Manson his impetus for these, for this philosophy and this revolution. There were almost daily discussions based upon the information that we have from prior testimony. Tex Watson heard her, held his murder stabbing classes and taught them how to, as Deputy Commissioner Lam described, taught them how to plunge the knife in and pull it up so that this stabbing would be more effective. The ones that stayed participated in these murders and Krenwinkel stayed. Inmate stayed. There were others that left. There were, there were people as, as we've heard here today, people came and left all of the time. And maybe inmate didn't choose the right person to leave with, but it was possible for her to leave. Leslie Van Houten testified at her trial in 1977 that Charles Manson told her that Krenwinkel was a complete reflection of him and that she was more like him than anyone else in the family. The inmate was in the trusted inner circle. And for her to say and deflect every sense of responsibility onto somebody else here, claiming that she didn't know, is, is a travesty and should not be believed. Particularly when they were sent out on the first night. Manson told them to leave something which he -- not on the second night. In other words, carry out my plan. And the family knew that Helter Skelter was starting. As the Commissioner pointed out, that when the inmate said she didn't know, she told the clinician, well, I just thought we were going there to rob people. But as the Commissioner pointed out on page 46 and page 47 of the 2011 hearing, 2011 hearing, she knew what was going to go on in that house. They were armed with knives and a gun on their way to the Cielo Drive residence. Watson cut the phone wire so nobody could call for help. And he executed Steven Parent because he was in the way of their mission. I think it was Linda Kasabian who surreptitiously slit the screen, and not Tex Watson. And when Tex Watson came in, nobody every testified that he asked for money. Abigail Folger offered him the money, but what he said was, I am the devil and I am here to do the devil's work, stating their purpose. The chaos ensued and the slaughter of five people and an innocent fetus. During that, during that slaughter, Steven Parent was shot four times. Sharon Tate was stabbed 16 times. She was hung. She was pregnant. She was begging for her life. Jay Sebring, stabbed 7 times, smashed -- his face with a gun by Tex Watson and one gunshot wound. Wojciech Frykowski was chased after. Fifty-one stab wounds, hit three times over the head with a gun, two gunshot wounds. And Abigail Folger, chased after by this inmate, out of the house with 28 stab wounds. This was a rage massacre. This was a rage to incite this revolution, to leave a message, carry out the plan, let them know we mean business. The inmate, which wasn't -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry -- crime partner, Susan Atkins, wrote the blood message in Sharon Tate's blood. Pigs. Now why is this word Pigs important? Well, this word, Piggies and Pigs and Death to Pigs -- the first time it was used was in the Gary Hinman murder, smeared on the wall in Gary Hinman's blood and the Pigs were the, were the white elite who were the enemy of the African Americans. Pigs is very important because that encompasses the messages of this revolution. The inmate had no remorse when she left the Tate residence. As she told you, she felt empty. Because on the way back, as the evidence showed at trial, she complained that her hand hurt from the knife hitting Abigail Folger's bones and that her hair hurt from being pulled by the bloody victims. When they got back to the ranch, they told Manson they all had no remorse. And the evidence shows that it wasn't Susan Atkins that watched the news coverage the next day -- it was all the girls. It was inmate, it was Van Houten and Atkins. They went out the next night knowing what had happened the night before. And several people were spared their lives before they actually got to Harold True's house or Harold True's driveway. As the evidence showed, there was a house with photos of children. They stopped three places. There was a house with photos of children and Manson got out and looked around and said, not tonight. It's not time. They have children and it may be time sometime, but we're not going to murder children tonight. A clergyman was spared because the church door was locked and his life was spared by this revolution. There was a random motorist that -- Manson got out of the car and just in the nick of time, the light turned green. But for that light turning green, that motorist would have been killed to start this revolution. When they got to the LaBianca house, they received instructions from Manson. Last night was too messy. Don't let them know you're going to kill them. The inmate went to the kitchen and got knives for both herself and her crime partner, Leslie Van Houten. And then they slaughtered the LaBiancas. Leno LaBianca, 26 stab wounds, 14 puncture wounds with that fork that was used to carve their Thanksgiving Day turkey. War carved out -- the inmate might not remember doing it, but the evidence at trial and the evidence subsequent all show that the inmate carved the word War. Again, a message to incite the revolution. Inmate deflects these words and the words Rise, Death to Pigs, Helter Skelter, saying these were things that Manson believed. Well, she believed them, too, because she wanted everything to do, to please Manson and did whatever he would ask. Rosemary LaBianca, 6 fatal stab wounds, 41 stab wounds in total, the majority plunged into her back by Patricia Krenwinkel, all done with a pillow case over her head, listening to her husband being butchered in the next room. All of these factors, including the significance of the, of the reasons behind the murder, all point to the fact that this is an unusual case. This is one of those rare cases that Lawrence was meant to talk about. And based upon that, regardless of what she's done in prison, regardless of her programming, regardless of her institutional behavior or lack thereof, parole should be denied on this basis. However, if the Board believes that Lawrence is not applicable, there are other factors that show a nexus to current dangerousness. The inmate completely minimizes and deflects her culpability, both for the crimes and for Helter Skelter. She did say that she took responsibility for stabbing Abigail Folger and for all of the deaths that occurred during these two nights. But what does she do? She claimed that she was told to follow whatever Tex told her to do. And that's minimization. As the Commissioner and the Deputy Commissioner discussed with the inmate, there were several things that she could have done, not to go into the, into the Tate residence. Next claim. I thought we were just going to do a robbery. Well, we've already discussed that. From the transcript in 2011, she knew that two women were going to be killed. There's no reason to go into that any more. That was clear as day. Next claim -- that she told the clinician, I had no courage, on page 14. Well, I, I have to -- I beg to differ. I think it takes super-human courage to chase a woman down outside of her house, outside of a house where she was staying, plunge a knife into her, viciously and ferociously, listen to her plead for her life, tell your crime partner to finish the job and then to complain that your hand hurt and your hair hurt from the incidents that happened at that house. I don't know if it's courage or gall, but that is not the sign of a weak woman who tells you here today, I don't know. I just did everything I was told. She also told the clinician, I was not in the house when the others were killed. Again, deflection of responsibility. She is responsible for all of those murders. Next claim. I was so caught up in the confusion, I didn't know what was happening. This was again on page 14, that she told the clinician. But again, that's a minimization. Because in the same interview, she told the police -- I'm sorry -- she told the clinician that she knew, she knew it -- she just didn't want to tell you because she went along with it because if she told you that she knew, it would make her look really bad. She tells the Panel that she's sort of a hero and a martyr because she sacrificed William Garretson's life in the guest house, but again, that's saying something that she thinks will make herself look good in front of the Panel and it just does not square with the evidence and does not square with everything that we know about this case. The inmate has a complete lack of insight. She tells you that she committed these crimes because of her desire to feel loved and needed by Manson. And I don't think that there's a person on this earth or a person in this room right now that doesn't have the desire to feel loved. But the difference is, she slaughtered 7-1/2 people to get that. And she hasn't told you how she made the jump between wanting to feel loved and butchering so many people. She hasn't told you why she did it. I can understand if she wanted to butcher Manson for putting her in this position, but seven strangers? Because she was carrying out the cause of the revolution. Here's why the Youth Offender criteria don't apply to this inmate. Well, first of all, in 1988 -- let's talk about impulsivity as one of the criteria. In 1988, the inmate participated in a psychological interview that lasted -1/2 hours with Dr. J., initial J., Frances, with an e. Dr. Frances opined on page 4 of, of his report that, "whereas this level of anger and psychopathic deviance in an individual of lesser intelligence would be less curbed by their inability to reflect as fully and brighter individuals, Ms. Krenwinkel's bright average IQ contra-indicates an impulse control deficit that might be otherwise considered." So this impulsivity factor was looked at a while back and closer to the time of the crime. And an expert, a psychiatrist who, or a Ph.D., who the Board relies upon, says it was not an impulsive act. The clinician opines that the inmate had the inability to adequately foresee the long-term consequences of her future. Well, here, in my opinion, is why the clinician is just flat-out wrong. The conversations at the ranch turned from peace and love to Helter Skelter. They listened to these Beatles albums on a daily basis, in a group, and Manson would preach to them about the meanings of the songs and the philosophy behind them. Inmate stayed and participated. Others left and she stayed. In the Diane Sawyer interview in 1994, Diane Sawyer said that both Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel told her that Manson told them that they might have to initiate Helter Skelter. The testimony at trial showed about Tex Watson's murder classes. And this inmate was Manson's first girl, one of the first women, a trusted member of this, of that society. Whereas Tex Watson was Manson's trusted right hand man, Krenwinkel was his trusted right-hand woman. She was chosen to do these missions. The other women were not. This was a planned attack. As we stated earlier, Manson told them to leave a sign. And the testimony was, "You girls know what to write. Something witchy." So if he's saying, you girls know what to write, that's an indication that he has shared what he plans to do with the girls. And lastly, it is impossible that she was unable to foresee the long-term consequences of her behavior. While that might have been an argument for the Tate residence slaughter -- but we know it's not because we know that she knew that women were going to be killed in there -- the long, the behavior, when she went on the second night, she knew what would happen. And she's a smart woman. Killing people means murder. Lastly, the Resolution. In 1977, the Legislative Resolution, Chapter 40, indicates that they urge the Board to find those inmates who were sentenced to death prior to 1992, and whose sentence was reduced to life imprisonment by judicial decision, unsuitable for parole. For all of the reasons that I have stated, there shows a nexus to current dangerousness and, if the Board finds there is no nexus to current dangerousness, then they should consider the holding in In re Lawrence. The People would urge this Panel to deny suitability for this inmate for the minimum term of five years. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you. Counsel?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: Thanks. And I first want to point out that the Deputy DA just created some language just for the purpose of trying to strike it down, falsely stating that Ms. Krenwinkel said she was a hero or a martyr. Like that, that's offensive language to even suggest in a context like this, but that she raised it as some kind of straw-man argument is, is particularly unfortunate. But one of the things I, I want to address early on is this issue from 2011 hearing. I was there at that hearing. And and I've read every transcript and Psych Report and Counsel's Report. And Ms. Krenwinkel's statement has always been consistent. Her description of what happened has always been consistent. Her description of what she knew and when has always been consistent. And I looked at the transcript and the only way this makes sense, and from my memory, having been at the hearing, where her testimony, again, was consistent, is if you look at the -- this is, it's on page 46 -- beginning around line 19 or 20, she's saying, you know, went to the house with Tex, (inaudible) over the fence, etc., there's an (inaudible), (inaudible) at 20 -- we don't know what that was. An (inaudible) at 22, something they screaming -- we don't know what that was. And then she says, because there's no doubt that I knew that there was, that there was ever going to, that what was ever going to happen then here was not going to be good. So in other words, she's saying, she's kind of speculating, I don't know what it is, but whatever it is, it ain't going to be good. Doesn't look good. Now if she knew that they were there to murder some people, she doesn't have to speculate about whether it's going to be good. She doesn't have to say, whatever it is going to be -- and the reason that's important is because that next line -- I remember her saying, I didn't know that there was a plan to murder people inside. And when you look at the transcript, that's why you, I mean, you saw her immediate response now, I didn't say that. Because she's never said that. In this transcript, I'm suggesting, is this is a typo, where it says, I did know, it actually should say I didn't know. My hope is that the Board has access to the recording from that so you can actually confirm that. But I also looked to see, well, how do we, you know, before we get to that -- a recording -- how do we figure out whether this, that makes more sense. Well, first I looked at all the prior hearings' transcripts and Psych Evaluations. Everywhere she's discussed the crime, she's given the same explanation. Consistently said, I didn't know that's what we were doing. I didn't know this was going to be a murder. You look at, you go back to the, the Risk Assessments, 2008, 2009, on page 8, it talks about how her description has been consistent since the beginning. On page 8 of the 2009 Comprehensive Risk Assessment. Similarly, if you go back to the 2004, July of 2004 hearing transcript, it is the same (inaudible), pages 11 and 12. It's the same. Again, making clear she didn't know that was the intention going there, but she went willingly. Another thing that I thought was really significant is if you look at Leslie Van Houten's transcript, from her hearing earlier this year, we know she didn't go on the first night. She didn't know there was going to be a murder. She learned about it after they got back. And so why wouldn't she know? Well, clearly, like Ms. Krenwinkel, was not involved in the discussion about, here's what we're going to go out and do tonight. But she also says that when, when Ms. Krenwinkel came back, that she was visibly shaken by what had just happened. And it wasn't until then that, that Ms. Van Houten learned what had happened. Again, corroborating the, the explanation, well, that they, we didn't know. Some people made some decisions, obviously, but they told us what to do and we did it. Been consistent throughout. The only way this makes sense is if that word is a typo. And having been there, I know that to be true. Having been at the 2011 hearing, sitting right here in this room. The other thing that kind of makes this all, kind of a point that it isn't relevant, is that this Panel is here to assess this, among other things, Ms. Krenwinkel's past and present attitude about the crime. For sure, right? That's one of the factors they consider. But the attitude was -- and you heard her say it -- if I'd known it was going to be a murder, if I'd known, I still would have gone. Right? So she's admitting that's where my attitude was, that was my intention, I bought into this philosophy, I was going to do anything I could to please him, including killing people, including dying myself. If I'd know this night that's what we were going to do, I would have gone. Now, the fact that she's owning up to that level of intention and involvement should put to rest any dispute about whether, whether this is a typo in 2011, which would be an anomaly, or whether you've actually gotten from her, here's the real deal. I didn't know, but if I had, I'd've gone anyway. She was all in. There's no question about that. And maybe there's no better indication of that than the fact that she went the next night, knowing what was intended. In other words, there's no room to, to claim that she somehow is denying full responsibility. She owns it, yes. I didn't. I could've stopped any of this. I didn't have to participate. And I did. She talked about why. It's, it's a bit confusing for the Deputy DA to say, oh, she, she's saying she's accepting responsibility, but she's not accepting responsibility for everything. Well, that's just not -- doesn't work. Can't be both. She's owning up to everything she did and what everybody else did, because she bought into that same philosophy. She talked about her being a coward, being too weak to, to get out of it. There's another aspect of this, and this relates to the actual line of questioning that the Panel engaged in earlier in the hearing. There were things that were talked about, like, you know, why didn't you leave? Why did you stay? Why did you put up with it? And extracting details about the types of abuse -- physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse -- that Ms. Krenwinkel was a victim of. Now that line of questioning makes sense in assessing whether someone acted in some way connected to their role as being a victim of battery by a partner. Intimate partner battering -- used to be called Battered Women's Syndrome. Used to be one of the things that, that we'd talk about in here. But this case has all the hallmarks, yet the Board has never done IPB investigation. Now back in October, I wrote to the Board, asking about that. I said, there's all this evidence in there -- it comes in every Psych Report, every transcript -- why has that never happened? Why has there not been an effort to substantiate, yes, that's, let's just put that to rest. And the response I got -- so I wrote to them October 10th. They wrote back to me, Attorney Mina Choi wrote back October 21st. She said, it's not an issue. In other words, the Panels that have seen her have enough information to conclude that, yes, she was a victim of this. If they needed more information, then we'd do an investigation. Well, it seems like that -- an interesting non-answer that -- one I hadn't really seen before. But it raises concern. What is, what is going on here? Why is there an aspect, a significant aspect of this case that has never been explored, investigated in the way that any other case would be? Well, obviously, this case gets a lot of different kinds of attention. I get that. But the fact is, the substantiation of that aspect of it is yet another factor the Board would have to weigh and it would weigh in favor of suitability. I'm not saying that's anything that the Panel is intentionally trying to do -- or that -- certainly not this Panel. Hasn't come up before with this Panel. But nevertheless, it's a, it's, it's a missing piece that I wanted to explore and the Board has taken a position that if this Panel thinks that there's some need for a full investigation to substantiate that, you get to request that investigation. I don't think it's necessary, because I think the record is solid, but I wanted to explore that, that issue just to find out from the Board what the thinking was about that. But all the issues you're talking about -- and the reason I'm mentioning it now is because these issues, when you're talking to someone who's actually been a victim of battering and its impact, it can have the effect, the unintended effect of re-victimizing them in some way. When you're saying, why didn't you leave when you were being beaten, being beaten? I mean, there, there's one case, not too long -- well, why did your husband rape you? Well, what kind of question is that? Highly inappropriate. And while this Panel hasn't, hasn't done that, I, I raise it up because without, sort of, coming to some conclusion about this, there's the risk that there's like a, a, a piling on effect. The, the other thing about this -- obviously the biggest thing is that, for many years, this case has been, hasn't been about the -- it seems weird to say it, but hasn't really been that much about Ms. Krenwinkel. It's about what the case stands for and what her actions stand for. And what the whole group's actions stand for. And the, the shock and the fear that was struck in the hearts of everybody in this community. And in the broader community. That it created a hysteria that has, all these years later, continued to lead to public outcry. Anyone capable of that should never get out. Well, that's not the law, though. The law says even, even someone capable of that -- if they have a life sentence with the possibility of parole, then we have certain criteria we have to apply in determining whether they're likely to re-offend in some way. If we identify the various factors that contributed to the crime and we see that she's addressed those factors in her time in prison -- 47 years now, since this crime -- then the law requires that we grant her parole. Regardless of the public outcry. That's the law. And if you look at this record, she's identified those factors that contributed to why she left with him to begin with, why she, why she stuck with him, what she was hoping would get better, how she became indoctrinated over that two-year period, being, becoming increasingly willing to do more and more. Not even just specifically what he's asking, but things that she thought would please him. Because that's what her life became about. Pleasing him, staying there, and even when things got so wild and crazy she wanted to leave, she got that, you know, the same kind of thing of, of what happens in, in battering incidents, when he shows that he can show up and find you whenever you stop running. It's classic in that sense. But that seems to be what happened here. This is just my lot in life. This is, this is -- so in order to survive this, I'd better really buy into it. And she did. She was even helping to spread this, this indoctrination effort to other people she came into contact with. But she has an understanding of why she did that. And she's -- just like the, the indoctrination is real and really happened here, the, the deprogramming and reprogramming is also real. Which is also what happened here. That she's done the work to identify -- you, you saw her talk about how early on, after being here for just a couple years, she remembers the moment where she first really said, no, in a way that she could stay gone if she wanted to. And that, since then, she's been on this trajectory, this path that leads you to here, someone who no longer is looking for that kind of approval, acceptance, not, not caring what he or anyone like him cares or thinks about her, has full self-esteem, has overcome the drug issues -- drugs are no longer a part of her life. She talked about that process. She's no longer subscribing to these, these extreme, sometimes, like, mystical or fantastic or these cult-like ideas and beliefs. None of that is a part of her life. And the psychologist who's consistently seen her and concluded, yeah, she's gotten past that now -- they can't all be wrong. The fact that if you go back to 1988 to find something negative about her attitude back then suggests that you really want to ignore the last few Risk Assessments. The last three, going back to 2007, all say she's a low risk. They all say she's gained considerable insight, shows remorse, has done effective programming. In, in her time in prison, this exemplary disciplinary record -- you just don't, you just don't see -- I mean, people who've been in prison 18 years don't stay disciplinary-free. Or five years or two years or two months. But for her to have done as long as she's been in prison is a, truly remarkable. But not only has she stayed out of trouble, she's involved in pro-social activities. I mean, just since her last hearing, 2011, there are 30 individual programs she's completed. She's in, she's completed and facilitated that many. And some of these are -- and she's in a mentorship role, she's in a training role, she's helping other people see the, see the light. And contributing in that way. Because she recognized that's, recognizes that's what she needs to do right now. It's been mentioned of this, this video. It's called Life After Manson. And it actually happened because the filmmaker -- Olivia Klaus is her name -- she came to, to film this, this program, convicted women against abuse. As, as we all know, you can't identify an individual inmate, go interview her and do a big thing about her, but as a part of this group, Ms. Krenwinkel happened to be in that group. And Ms. Klaus sort of recognized and got to know, you know, several individuals, did it, a, little portraits of each one, but decided, I'm going to make a film out of this one. That's how this happened. But the thing about it is what the group is, is women helping each other overcome these issues of abuse, recognizing the co dependency issues, talking about the tools that they now have that they didn't have when they were 19 -- when she started with Manson, for example, or in their own lives when that happened. And what the, a reason that the film has gotten such, such support, actually, in the community is because it shows a side that no one else, frankly, wanted to see about her. It actually shows who she is and how she is now. And her insight into how she became that way. And while we can't, you know, put up a screen and show it in here, I, I have a transcript of it, so you can see what the words are. It's not very long. It's only, I don't know, 30 to 40 minutes, I don't know, something like that, the whole thing. So I have a transcript of it. I'll leave that with you. This is a card that shows a couple of comments in the packet that we gave you. It shows what some people have said after seeing it and had their eyes opened a little bit about who Ms. Krenwinkel has become. And really, that's what this process is about. It's encouraging the Panel, anyone else to not focus on the horrendous, horrific crimes that people committed, but to instead say, well, who is this person today and is this a person who's demonstrated they can safely be released? And I think that, under any standard, Ms. Krenwinkel has done that. But if you add in the fact that she was, she qualifies for youthful parole consideration, it clearly shows that -- and the psychologist does a good job of documenting this, this issue -- and, in a minute, I'll come back and point to just a couple of errors in the Psych Report, just corrections I need to make for the record. But not only under the, the youth factors when you look at the way she was following her sister and actually that led to meeting Manson and his, his, his crew, it shows where her life was at that time and why she started down this path. But it also shows -- and I think the Report does even a better job than this in showing how much she's grown and matured since then into someone who's a, a leader, who is very confident, who's very clear, who's educated, who's got skills and who is, who is busy giving back to the rest of the community. But the, the -- another aspect of it is that this is also an Elderly Parole case, because she's 69 years old and has served more than 25 years, that we also consider the fact that someone of her age is much less likely to recidivate compared to someone younger. So she's both young and old somehow, the same, at the same time. Just wanted to make a couple quick comments on the Risk Assessment, specifically that -- where's that thing -- the one that's not quite so minor is on page 7 where Ms. Krenwinkel is quoted as -- it's, it's a block quote, two paragraphs, where the psychologist is, is talking about how she recalled the instance in her, early in her, "turning point." Says when she, while she was in County Jail, awaiting trial. And then it actually talks about this timeframe that she, that Ms. Krenwinkel shared with the Panel, that this was actually back when she was at CIW, after she was on, they were in the, this actual housing unit, which kind of became what -- we think of it as a SHU now. It wasn't in the County Jail. It was after she was here. So that's one correction. And then -- I have one more (inaudible) -- that might have been the only one worth, worth noting. I think that's it. Overall, it's clearly a very supportive Risk Assessment, like so many of the last few years, it says she has exceptional insight into those factors, that she's completely left that lifestyle, the hope, beliefs, etc., and this, this Panel also accepts, this is, this is a real thing and that you, you don't actually have to get to the point where you say, okay, I would've done that. It said you just have to understand that she understands why she got to that point. And that she's done the work to move away from that (inaudible). And I think the record's very clear that she's done that. And then it just becomes a question of, you know, you heard the Deputy DA argue primarily that, oh, the facts in this case alone require you to deny her parole. I don't believe that. And I don't think that's the law. I think the law requires that, regardless of the circumstances of the crime, if those circumstances are not at all likely to recur, because of the individual and the other circumstances of the crime, then parole has to be granted. And I think that she's done exactly what she needs to do to show she can safely be released. So she should be granted parole. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you. Ms. Krenwinkel, now's the opportunity for you to tell this Panel why you feel that you're suitable for parole today.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I wrote a small closing, but -- I cannot change the past. The enormity of suffering my actions have caused cannot be erased. The grief and fear the crime have caused have forever touched the hearts and minds of those intimate with the victims, neighbors, the community, first responders and everyday persons. I know simply saying I'm sorry will not lessen the heartbreak and loss, but I am so truly sorry. And I apologize to all. Accepting my responsibility, I have committed to my own recovery. I stay involved in service work and share my experience with others. This in no way compensates for my past actions, nor do I expect forgiveness. But in small measure, I attempt to help where and when I can, and honor the sacred nature of life in others. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you. I would like to turn to the victims' next-of-kin. And whoever would like to give a statement.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So (inaudible), making your statement, can you just please re-introduce yourself?

MS. TATE: Of course.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: For the record.

MS. TATE: Of course.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you.

MS. TATE: (Inaudible.)

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: (Inaudible.)

MS. TATE: Okay, I just want to make sure -- oh, sorry. My name is Debra Tate and I am the sister of Sharon Tate. I was the middle of three sisters and extremely close with Sharon. As a matter of fact, I was supposed to have been there that afternoon and into the early evening. Because of, of the Department's faux pas in not giving the Petition in -- and here is, the confirmation from Victim's Services that it was received -- she got it after the Board of Parole Correspondence Unit received it, which came back in a very timely manner. This is going to cut into my ten, ten minutes' worth of speaking. At that time, when it was sent down, there was a total of 89,103 names listed below from all over the world. Eighty-eight thousand, six hundred and seventy-three from the United States, United Kingdom, Costa Rica, Haiti, Mexico, Middle East, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, United Arab States, Argentina, Brazil, basically Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Finland, Greece, Malta, Poland -- we can say -- in total there are 58 countries. From the United States, comments which should equate to letters of opposition, the number was 10,056 from the United States alone. And then approximately another 11,000 from individuals in those various 58 countries that were listed. I don't know why these things aren't getting through because I verified prior to even endeavoring with a Petition, that it was legal within the practices of the Board of Parole Hearings, so I don't know what the problem is. Digital files were confirmed to have been received in a timely manner. So I just, I don't, I don't get it. As far as my Victim's Impact Statement, I would like to go a little bit outside of the box, because as Ms. Krenwinkel as changed, our victimization has also changed and grown. What I see here -- I concur with the DA, because my family has been on board with this for 37 years -- when they first allowed Victim's Impact Statements. And I've been very much a part of that program. Through various crime family members, testimony and various Psych Reports over the years, first of all, if you're once diagnosed as a psychopath or with psychopathic tendencies, you do not come back from that. I'm very happy that people can thrive within the confines of these walls. That's why we have prisons. In limited choices, I expect them to thrive and do well for one another. If those constraints are removed, that is the worry of myself as well as all of these people. You earlier asked for the basic overtone of those letters. They are extremely fearful that these people, in a free society, would return to their old ways. And psychologically speaking, I've studied for many years, there's nothing to say, once you've been diagnosed as having psychopathic tendencies and eventually lower it down to sociopathic tendencies, which I feel she still has because it's all me, me, me, me, me, I can't, I don't feel safe. Neither does all of those people that signed their name. And all of those people that bothered to write letters attached to that document. There is a lot of inconsistency even in today's testimony that further traumatizes or makes big questions, raises fear and 47 years later, society has not expected that this is even a possibility. If the crime was committed prior to 1992, when the guidelines changed, there was presented by the DA a factor that says, it should be life in prison without the possibility of parole. Each and every one of us, as well as all of these people, concur with that. And we are begging the Commissioners to make the right decision and allow us to feel safe. It's very difficult for us to exist in a world where monsters like this can be freed to move about the country anyway they like. And who knows at what point their trigger is going to be re enacted? We've already established triggers are there. They're less likely to occur in these walls. I've also been contact by people on the outside that have been in this institution and have been cellmates with this woman. And although things may not get written up or may disappear, just like my Petition, she's not been so nice. That also makes me very fearful. Now I would like to extend to her, because I am a very fair-minded individual, the same opportunity -- I see it as an opportunity for both of us -- that I extended to Mr. Tex Watson. Let's sit down and make me, help make me believe and understand that you are what you say you are. That has never happened. Why? She sent letters to the LaBarge family, but not to the Tates, the LaBiancas or the Sebrings or, or -- she sent -- it falls on deaf ears with the Folgers. They've never been involved. Why the LaBarge? Because they were involved with Tex Watson. They had empathy toward the family, even shared in the doctrine. And that also is a big red flag to me. But please, if attorney would, or counsel would like to have us sit down, I'm willing to sit down which is a, an olive branch that she's never extended in this direction. And that's pretty much it. I would like to see her denied for five years. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you.

MR. DIMARIA: Bear with me if it gets difficult. Okay. My name is Anthony, my name is Anthony DiMaria. Jay Sebring was my uncle. I see the attorney, attorney Wattley mentioned the film, so I brought the film. I bought it on -- I'd like you to look at it if you want to watch it, you know? Look for a passage where she discusses how she, she was upset about what she allowed to happen. And the very specific terminology. And how the victims are treated pretty much as props in the furthering of the story. I think they're mentioned once by name, if I'm not mistaken. I'm going to reference -- if you take that -- the back sleeve, and I've underlined it for your reference and I will come back to that. Before I begin, that I, I have to say I feel genuine sorrow for all of us involved, all of our families who are now my friends and -- including Patricia Krenwinkel. I'm not here out of anger or vengeance or hatred towards Patricia Krenwinkel. I'm here out of love, to speak for those who can't speak for themselves. Part of what continues to impact us today are these parole hearings and what is said in them. Today's the fourth such hearing in just over a year's period of time that our families must endure. And while these annual disruptions come with heavy emotional, psychological and financial tolls, I'm grateful for the opportunity and the privilege to represent a man who was a profound source of love and pride for our family. I'm going to read from original testimony of Charles Watson and I'd like to submit it to the Commissioners. Because I think it illustrates in detail the last moments, actions of my uncle's life, and it reveals some details from his point of view of what happened in the living room at Cielo. This is from Charles Watson, original testimony. Question. What happened when the group was in the room? Answer. A guy started toward me. And question. Was this the man who had been on the couch? Answer. No. It was another person. Question. What happened then? Answer. And I was, I remember I was kind of running and jumping back and forth behind the couch, making funny noises, and Sadie said, watch out, or something like that. I turned around and emptied the gun on this man. You said you emptied the gun? Yes. How many times did you shoot? I don't know. I just shot. Did you do anything else? Answer. Then I went around the couch and started stabbing him. Question. This is the same man you shot? Yes. That's the answer. Patricia was already there, stabbing him, and I went over and did the same thing. Question. How long did that last? Answer. Until Sadie hollered at me and she was fighting and stabbing a man going out the door. I don't know if you need this?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No.

MR. DIMARIA: We've heard much discussion of drug, Manson influence, threat to society, rehabilitation and suitability. I will address these. Attorney Wattley states that his client has owned up to her crimes, yet when she's asked about whether she would commit the crimes without the use of drugs or Manson, Ms. Krenwinkel states categorically, no. On drug use. Barbara Fries, M.D., Senior Examiner for the Board of Neurology and Psychiatry, states, "It is not defensible to say Patricia Krenwinkel was influenced immediately or chronically changed by LSD or amphetamines. No drug has ever produced a sustained psychotic state that cause a person to carry out organized activities as in these murders, with regard to the planning, the targeting, murdering, painting messages in blood, not to mention escaping capture and hiding from authorities. Psychedelic drugs and speed do not make people do psychotic deeds." On Manson. For decades our families have been impacted as certain facets of media have sculpted narratives on Charles Manson and his so-called family. But in light of the profound gravity of these crimes, it is imperative that we see things for as they are. Charles Manson is not a mastermind. Nor is he a counter-culture demi-god with mystical powers to brainwash. He is an angry, frustrated criminal who lashed out at society, in which he was a complete failure. Patricia Krenwinkel is not a victim of Manson nor is she a follower. She, too, was an angry individual who identified with a violent crime organization bent on mayhem and destruction. Her choices and actions for nearly two years define her as a cruel-hearted sociopath, a determined killer. I include her perverted and tormenting behavior during the trials. Manson clan member Lynette Fromme referred to today as Lyn Fromme, states, "To blame it on Manson is just silly. These women could come and go as they wished. This was a voluntary unity." Is Patricia Krenwinkel a threat to society? It's quite telling that Ms. Krenwinkel mentions a hatchet today. I sadly call to your attention the murder of 16-year-old Jason Sweeney. The teenager was killed by four youths, ages 15 to 17. The weapons used to kill were a hammer, several large rocks and a hatchet. At one point during the murder, the hatchet was struck so severely, it remained protruding from Jason's skull as he struggled to flee for his life. The teenagers testified listening to the song Helter Skelter over and over for several hours to get, "psyched up" before committing the murder. Helter Skelter. The same words Patricia Krenwinkel sprawled in Leno LaBianca's blood on the refrigerator door at her crime scene. Judge Seamus McCaffery said, after viewing Jason's crime scene photos, "This is something out of the dark ages. I'm not sure we can call ourselves a, a civilized society when this happens." Three of the four teenagers were sentenced to life without parole. Prosecutor Jude Conroy states, "It is really amazing that teenagers in Philadelphia, Memorial Day weekend, is attuned to the whole Helter Skelter and Manson mythology. It is a sad testament to the twisted brutal legacy the Manson murders have left behind, such that attracts 15, 16, 17 year olds, four years later, 3,000 miles across this country. It's a powerful legacy." The threat of Patricia Krenwinkel to society -- direct, symbolic or repercussive -- is current. And lethal. Regarding prison conduct. And I, I apologize, but I, I'll get through this. It is devastating to hear today how involved in self-help groups and rehabilitation certificates are weighed against the value of my uncle's life. The following is an excerpt from Ms. Krenwinkel's Petition filed a couple of months ago, seeking earlier, seeking an earlier parole date, which is why we're here today instead of the original 2018 date set by the Board at her last hearing. "Since 2011, Ms. Krenwinkel has continued to develop insights into her actions while remaining an exemplary prisoner. Emotions, Emotions Anonymous, Pathway to Wholeness, meditations with a Buddhist teacher, Tai Chi, chairperson of the Prison Puppy (sic) Program." In addition to the Prison Puppy Program, Ms. Krenwinkel contacted Olivia Kraus, a documentary producer. The director says, "She approached me to capture her story." Which eventually became the film, Life After Manson: The Untold Story of Patricia Krenwinkel. That's the DVD that I, I've referenced. I'm going to read from the back of the cover of the DVD box. "Now, as California's longest incarcerated woman, she continues to be demonized by the public and haunted by the suffering she has caused over four decades ago." Continues to be demonized by the public. It seems Ms. Krenwinkel and her producers have lost sight of who the victims are in these murders, even after 46 years of rehabilitation. So let us consider the untold stories of Ms. Krenwinkel's debt. Life after Krenwinkel, the untold story of Abigail Folger. A death so unbearable, her last words were, stop, I'm already dead. Life after Krenwinkel, the untold story of an 8-1/2-month baby slaughtered with his mother as she screamed for his life. I know this is tough. But I got to say this stuff. Life after Krenwinkel, the untold story of Rosemary LaBianca, stabbed one, two, three, four -- 41 times. Life after Krenwinkel, the untold story of Margaret DiMaria, my mother, who was pregnant when her brother was killed -- so traumatized by his murder, she lost the child. When I read the petitioner described as, "California's longest incarcerated woman," I remember eight people, dead. Forty-seven years and counting. All said, 375 years in a black, cold coffin. Patricia Krenwinkel has served 45 years. She can serve 329 more. While the inmate, her attorney and the film producers believe Ms. Krenwinkel has been rehabilitated and is a changed person, I remind the Board her eight victims remain unchanged, un-rehabilitated, un-paroled. They are just as dead today as when Patricia Krenwinkel sent them to their graves. As the attorney talks of law, you see four relatives before you seeking justice. I urge the Board to consider parole for, for Patricia Krenwinkel when her victims are paroled from their graves. As we acknowledge the cruel, severe, the severe nature of the crimes, the historical impact and threat to society, the minimization exhibited in the recent documentary, the number of victims and how horribly they suffered, I ask for a denial of the longest period of time. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you.

MR. SMALDINO: Thank you for allowing me to express my thoughts today. I am Lou Smaldino, and I am Leno and Rosemary's, LaBianca's, oldest nephew. My mother was Leno's older sister, so that's the connection there. Been to many of these hearings and it gets a little more difficult each time, you know, just to, to relive this all the time, but I will give you my thoughts and try to make it as brief as possible because you've listened for quite a while today. I'm before you today and will continue to be here as long as the process requires it, to express our family's concern that Ms. Krenwinkel is ever paroled. Her callous disregard for human life, her brutal participation in several -- actually, eight -- murders in total disregard for the sanctity of life, should forever seal her fate as a lifetime prisoner. These murders of my aunt and uncle were carried out for no other reason than the thrill of the kill and trying to start a race war. There was no passion or mitigating circumstances. She and the Manson family killed two loving people in the prime of their lives. I actually brought a picture today. Just, this was taken a couple years before their, they were murdered. It was a party at my parents' house. I brought the picture for me today from our family album that was taken within a few years of their death to show how vibrant this couple was and would like to share it with you. You know, they were in their mid-forties. I mean, it's just inconceivable to me that, you know, it's been this long since it's happened, but I'm a lot older than they were at that time. These were innocent people who bore no malice toward anyone and should be a model for all of us on how to live and treat others. Leno and Rosemary were, to say the least, a very handsome, loving couple, devoted to their family, and also, and to the community and their business family. With this in mind, I would like to again remind this Panel that Patricia Krenwinkel is a vicious, uncaring killer who was sentenced to die for her evil deeds and was saved by an errant court to life in prison. This were to happen today, she would get life without parole if they didn't give her the death penalty, although with seven fatalities, I think it would be more like life or death penalty. What single act has Ms. Krenwinkel done to assuage our pain and grief? For her, we do not exist and are merely obstacles to the worst, obstacles of her goal to being released from prison for murders that many consider the worst of our time. They were literally terrorist acts when they took place, long before people called them terrorist acts. It is inconceivable for me to believe that Ms. Krenwinkel can ever be rehabilitated. Like her, I grew up in the Southern California area during the happy days period of the fifties and sixties. While I was living happy days at the malt shop, she and her clan were plotting murder, doing drugs and trying to initiate race wars. There's an evil here that no one seems to be addressing. What spiritual awakening or enlightenment has taken place within her? There's none that I'm aware of or convinced of. Her goal here today is to say and to do anything to get out. But I believe this Panel should look to the facts. No real remorse. No coming clean on her active participation in the murders. No spiritual renewal and minimizing her role and participation in these acts. Ms. Krenwinkel has already, should already be dead for her part in these vicious and unprovoked slayings. I believe society has been most merciful by allowing her to live with all her needs cared for. Leno and Rosemary have been deprived of life and their family has lost the joy and support of their presence in our lives. I ask, in the name of my family and in that of a decent and honorable society, that you deny parole to Patricia Krenwinkel because there really is no restitution for these crimes. There's no making it up to society. She is still a danger to society due to the nature of her crimes, multiple murders of innocent people in the sanctity of their homes. You know, I hadn't heard the word today, but she's a serial killer. I would say there is a way to make it right to her. Serve your life sentence with acceptance, with a sense of purpose and remorse for what you've done, have dignity in doing it and, you know, if you really do have a spiritual sense, you'll be rewarded on the other side. Our family is not asking for revenge. All we're asking for is justice. That's why we're here today. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you.

MR. LAMONTAGNE: I'll be, I'll be pretty brief here. And this is tough for me, so -- Just to start, my name is Tony LaMontagne. My grandfather is Leno LaBianca and my step-grandmother is Rosemary. I'm here today for one reason and I'm, I feel like everybody's here for that same reason. It's to ask you, on behalf of me, my grandfather's children, his grandchildren and his great-grandchildren, my son and the others, that you never release this person from prison. Forever. I mean, I know this is a parole thing and we get to go through this all the time, but please deny this parole request and any future ones. The facts of this case, they, they really speak for themselves. There's not a lot that I can say about what we've heard today. It just speaks for itself. She made the choice, she made a choice -- we all make choices every day -- to break into our homes and brutally murder our loved ones. When someone has had the capacity to do this -- it's a capacity, it's an, it's a capacity that certain people have, most of us don't have that -- they are always going to be a threat to society. Because you have that capacity. It's all I have to say.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Thank you.

MR. LAMONTAGNE: Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: All right. So the time's approximately 3:48 p.m. We will recess for deliberation. Thank you.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Back on record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. The time is approximately 5:45 p.m. All the same parties with the exception of one victim's next-of-kin, Mr. Anthony DiMaria, all the rest are all the same parties. So other than him, are back in the room at this time. And we're also missing the Public Information Officer and/or Media Representative. Okay. We'll scratch that. We, we have our Media Representative and our Public Information Officer here. So we're now ready to reconvene this Panel. After much, much deliberations, as you know, we've been, been in here a long time since our, the break, we've talked about all the factors involved to include Mr. Wattley's concern that this case possibly fits under the Intimate Partner Battering criteria. Based on that, we're going to have to continue this case. And we're going to continue this case and we're going to ask for an investigation under what we call IPB, the Intimate Partner Battering criteria. And we'll continue. And it's going to be -- we would hope that the investigation is completed, it's just as soon as possible, but we'll probably be looking with, within six months of coming back and continuing our hearing. Any comments?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: No?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So based on that, we'll put it back on the calendar. Like I said, just as soon as the investigation is complete, and then we'll re-adjourn, or we'll reconvene the hearing to complete the hearing at a later date and that -- I will take some comments and questions from counsel if needed.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well, when you say reconvene, is it just for the sole purpose of announcing your decision? Or will we be able to present more --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Well, what, what it will look like is after the investigation is done, we'll go over the investigation. And then we'll talk about how much weight we give the investigation. We'll, you know, like I said, we'll have a chance to discuss it in detail. We'll, we'll take comments, concerns from, from, you know, both sides. And then after that, you know, we'll recess. We'll deliberate based on new information which, to include the information that, you know, was presented today. And then we'll announce our decision, come to a decision and announce it. It, it won't be a full hearing where we go back over all the elements that we went over today.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Could --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Yes?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Maybe I should add, Commissioner, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm going to -- I would like to add that we review -- IPB reviewed all the elements of control, all the elements of IPB and it appears from all of Ms. Krenwinkel's testimony that she seems to fit in many if not all of the elements, so I thought, I think you're, Mr. Wattley, when you brought up IPB, I was right with you, because the moment she testifies about how it would be the honeymoon period and he abused her, then he promises her -- I immediately wrote domestic violence. So I think you're very astute to bring it up and I think we'd like to --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: So I do want to cut in right now, because that type of determination is going to be made through the investigation.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Right, right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: And then we'll be able to actually give our take on it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Right, right, right. I'm (inaudible) seems to have enough.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LAM: Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. All right. Mr. Wattley, did, did you have a comment?

ATTORNEY WATTLEY: I was going to ask the same question that she did. And I think that's it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER CHAPPELL: Okay. Okay. All right. Well, I thank you for, for your patience. This has been a, a very, very long day. And unfortunately, we couldn't reach the decision based on information that we just talked about. But just as soon as, as we get the information back from the investigation, we'll get back together. So the time's approximately 5:50 p.m. We're, we're going to adjourn.