• Bruce Davis • 2024

PAROLE HEARING

Thursday, January 18, 2024

BRUCE
DAVIS

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: We're on the -- we're on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Good morning, everyone. It is 8:36 a.m. on January 18, 2024, and this is a subsequent parole suitability hearing for Bruce Davis, CDCR number B41079. Mr. Davis is in the Board of Parole Hearings room at the San Quentin State Prison. Everyone else is appearing remotely by Microsoft Teams. This hearing is being audio recorded and will be transcribed as the official record of the hearing. There are no other recordings permitted pursuant to the Penal Code. For the purpose of identifying everyone's voices for the record, I will ask each of you to state your full name and spell your last name. I think what I'll do is go in order of closing statements after the Commissioners. I'm basically just gonna call each of you one by one and have you identify yourselves. I think that'll be the easiest. I'll go first. My name is Julie Garland, G-A-R-L-A-N-D, and I'm a Commissioner with the Board of Parole Hearings.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Good morning. Matthew Brueckner, B-R-U-E-C-K-N-E-R, Deputy Commissioner, Board of Parole Hearings.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Let's go to counsel.

ATTORNEY HART: Good morning. Ananda Hart, A-N-A-N-DA, last name Hart, H-A-R-T, on behalf of Mr. Davis.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Davis, and give us your first and last name, and also your CDCR number.

INMATE DAVIS: My name is Bruce Davis, D-A-V-I-S. My CDC number is B41079.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. And I'll go in order of my list of -- of -- of attendees. Ms. -- Ms. Martley?

MS. MARTLEY: Kay Hinman Martley, M-A-R-T-L-E-Y.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Did I freeze up there for a second?

MS. MARTLEY: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: No? I did, I think, um, yeah. I just got a warning on my screen. Hopefully that will subside. All right. And then, uh, please also state your relationship to the victim.

MS. MARTLEY: Gary Hinman was my cousin.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. And, uh, Mr. Campion?

MR. CAMPION: Uh, Chris Campion, uh, C-A-M-P-I-O-N. I'm a support person for Kay Hinman Martley.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Thank you. I, um, am getting another warning sign, so I'm going to ask to take a pause right now. Commissioner, if we can go off the record, I'm gonna restart my Teams. I'll be right back.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: We're back on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. It -- let's see, the next person I have on my list is Ms. Pickford. Go ahead.

MS. PICKFORD: Sheryl Pickford, P-I-C-K-F-O-R-D. I am Gary Hinman's niece.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. And then I do show Ms. Tate on our list. Uh, she may be joining, I guess, by phone. We'll let her in, uh, when she arrives. And then I have, uh, Mr. DiMaria.

MR. DIMARIA: Uh, my name is Anthony DiMaria, D-I, capital, M-A-R-I-A. I am a Hinman Family Representative.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay, thank you. And I just have somebody in the lobby, I'm assuming, uh, is Ms. Tate. Okay. Good morning. Is that you, Ms. Tate?

MS. TATE: Yes, it is.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Very good. Good timing. I was just about finished with introductions. So, if you could just state your full name and spell your last name and, uh, your relationship to the victims here.

MS. TATE: Yes. My name is Debra Tate, spelled D-EB-R-A. Last name Tate, T-A-T-E. And I am a representative for the Hinman family.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Very good. Thank you. All right. I think that's every -- oh, nope. Uh, Commissioner Mahoney, if you could identify yourself, as well.

MR. MAHONEY: Yeah. Steven Mahoney, M-A-H-O-N-E-Y, associate Chief Deputy Commissioner with the Board of Parole Hearings, observing only.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. All right. Let me check. Uh, Mr. Davis, were you able to hear everyone who identified themselves?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I was.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. I have a lot of folks on my screen. I -- let me just, um, say sometimes when we have this many people on the screen, there can be some freeze ups or -- or just glitches. If anyone wants to be off camera, that might help, um, and then you can come back on when you make your statements. You're certainly free to stay on camera if you prefer, but we -- just so you know, you have that option either way. All right. And then I think, Ms. Tate, I might be getting a little background noise. If you could mute yourself, that would be helpful.

MS. TATE: All righty.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And Commissioner, do we need to check the recording? Take a break for that?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: No, Commissioner. Recording's good.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Very good. All right. So, let me do -- next, we'll do a review under the Americans with Disabilities Act. So, this is to make sure, Mr. Davis, that you have the accommodations you need to participate. There are a few things in our system that I don't think you need anymore, and that's the -- the cane and -- and walker, and I think that was because of, uh, a hip issue. Is that right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you still need those things?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I don't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. I do show you have, uh, glasses assigned to you. Do you -- are you -- do you have those with you? All right. Um --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And then, uh, compression socks, do you still need those?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And then dentures, I show that you have dentures. Are you wearing those?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Uh, you are currently in CCCMS. Is that right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Your attorney is an accommodation for that. If you ever need to take a break and talk to her, uh, that's -- that's totally fine. Just let us know. Uh, are you taking any medications that can affect your ability to participate in the hearing today?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I'm not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And then, obviously, I -- we should be able to establish effective communication. You're -- you're quite educated, have a 12.9 TABE. That said, if there are any words, phrases, or questions that you don't understand, please be sure to point those out and we can repeat or rephrase those for you. All right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Ms. Hart, I don't see any other accommodations. Do you think your client has been adequately accommodated today?

ATTORNEY HART: I do. Thank you, Commissioner.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And do you have any preliminary motions or objections, counsel?

ATTORNEY HART: I do not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Very good. All right. So, Mr. Davis, we're going to spend a couple of minutes. I'll go through, once again, the things that we will be considering in making our decision today. Uh, ultimately, Commissioner Brueckner and I are here to determine whether your release would pose an unreasonable risk to public safety. And so, some of the considerations are your prior criminal history, the circumstances of the life crime offenses, and then we'll be talking to you about your programming, your institutional behavior, uh, you know, basically how you're spending your time in prison. And then at the end, we'll give you a chance to talk about what your plans are for parole, should you be released. Um, obviously, we, uh, met each other, uh, about a year and a half ago at your last hearing. I've already talked to you about a lot of those issues, so I'm not going to repeat, you know, uh, some of those things. I really wanna focus on where you are, you know, and where you've come since our -- that last hearing in -- in July of 2022. Um, so, that'll be the focus of my questions. I know Commissioner Brueckner has not had a chance to talk to you about some of those, so he might spend a little more time on, uh, those pre-conviction factors that we discussed last time. We know that you qualify under the elderly parole statute, so we will give special consideration to those factors. Uh, we have considered the confidential portion of your file, and we will let you know if there's anything in that that we rely on in our decision. One thing to keep in mind is your entire Central File, all the documents that we've received in support and in opposition to parole, the Comprehensive Risk Assessment, and all the prior transcripts and documents from other Board proceedings. Those are all incorporated into the record of this hearing, and the reason I mention that is we don't spend a lot of time doing a document review. We're not checking off certificates or letters. We're really trying to go beyond that and -- and learn a little bit more about who you are today. After Commissioner Brueckner and I talk to you about those issues, we will give your attorney a chance to ask clarifying questions and then give a closing statement that will be limited to 10 minutes. And then you can give a closing statement if you would like, as well, Mr. Davis, or you can choose to rely on your attorney’s. After your statement, uh, we will turn to the victim's family members. So, uh, we will give them a chance to speak, um, and there is no time limit on them. The only restriction on the family members is that, uh, the comments are directed to Commissioner Brueckner and myself, to the Panel rather than to Mr. Davis directly. I know you all have, uh, experience here, uh, so I don't think that'll be a problem, but if there's any time I need to remind you, you know, I will -- I will do so. Um, Mr. Davis, any questions about what we'll be talking about?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And I -- if anyone, any family members have any questions or anything before we get started, now would be the time to speak up. I can try to answer any questions y'all have. All right. Hearing none. We will continue. So, uh, Mr. Davis, your testimony will be under oath today, so please raise your right hand, and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you give at this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. You can put your hand down. So, let me check. You are currently 81 years old. Is that right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And you've served at this point about 53 years on this term?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, that's true.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Um, and as I mentioned, uh, you qualify under the elderly parole statute. So, how -- what kind of physical, um, how are you doing physically or medically? Do you have any conditions that are affecting you right now?

INMATE DAVIS: I, well, I have -- I have emphysema, self-inflicted, of course, and, um, uh, my -- my -- my hip replacement from ‘22 is -- it's getting -- it's about 90 - - way up in the nineties if you -- not quite, but getting there good, so I -- I -- I don't have any problem getting around.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: That's good, because you did there for a while. All right.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But overall, pretty healthy. As I recalled last time, you were pretty cognitively sharp, so, um, I assume that is -- is still the case. Um, so, let's talk about the last hearing. Um, tell us why you were denied parole last time.

INMATE DAVIS: I was denied parole because in the very beginning you asked me why I was in prison, and I took a very defensive, foolish stance, and I just named the last -- the last occurrence in -- in the process, which was the Governor. But really, uh, the -- the reason I was in prison was because of the crimes I committed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Any other reasons?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the crimes I committed, and, uh, those are -- those are -- that's the main thing that I'm in prison, for the crimes I committed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Well, true. Okay. So, let's talk about the reasons the -- that I mean, you mentioned one of the reasons was at the outset yes, you -- you kind of blamed the Governor rather than yourself, as far as why you were denied. Do you remember any other reasons that we talked about, uh, as far as our concerns with releasing you into the public?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the -- the thing that, uh, made the biggest impact was you're -- you're calling out that I didn't have enough empathy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And that -- that was a great thing. I'm glad you did, because I thought --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: I got it -- I, um, I -- I went to my -- I talked to my mental health person. She gave me, uh, some -- some paperwork on it. I took a class, the heart class, it -- and it was, uh, uh, a Domestic Violence prevention class. I -- I kind of got into it. I didn't really know what it was, but it turned out to be really good for me. And, uh, so, I've been, and -- and in -- in the, uh, in the material from the mental health lady, uh, it said -- it gave me some steps and some things to check myself on to see if I'm doing. And when I started looking at what it said, I -- I had to say, “Well, I'm falling -- I'm falling short of this, of these instructions.” And the instructions said I should listen better, I should, uh, assume the person's, uh, emotional, uh, stance, identify with his stance, uh, listen, ask questions, uh, don't judge it, uh, take my opinions out, just listen and, uh, and -- and just listen carefully, and -- and, uh, help me restate what the person said to the -- to the point where they say, “Yeah. That's what I mean,” so he knows that I'm --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: He knows I'm listening.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. So, let me, excuse me, let me ask -- let -- I'm gonna give you a chance to talk about empathy 'cause obviously that was an issue both for the Panel last time, as well as for the, uh, Governors in previous decisions, as well. So -- so, you talked about where -- I wanna focus on why you were denied this last time, lack of empathy and, um, kind of the not taking responsibility for, you know, previous denials, basically, by the Governors. And then, anything else that you remember?

INMATE DAVIS: Those were the two main things.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Let me - - let me tell you one that -- that I thought was important as well, and what I wanna kind of start off, uh, with today. One of the concerns we mentioned last time was your plan to do, I think what you called, like, a redemption tour. Right? Going out and talking about your, um, I see you shaking your head. I -- I am calling it a redemption tour. I don't think you called it that, but you did talk about how you would be, you know, you been asked to speak about your redemption, your -- your faith-based, you know, growth that you've accomplished. And -- and as I said, you know, I had some concern that that would be glamorizing to some extent, you know, the Manson family, Manson himself, the, you know, murders that rocked California and elsewhere. Right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And we talked about -- we talked about the fact, you know, you were saying, “Well, you know, it's not gonna be about Manson. It's about my redemption.” And as I explained, I said, “You can't do -- you can't talk about redemption without starting in, you know, where you're redeemed from.” And that that was a concern for the Panel because of the potential impact on society and the public if you were to go out there and -- and do that. Do you recall that at all?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Um, have you given that any thought?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I have.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And what do you think about that?

INMATE DAVIS: I don't intend to speak to au -- big audiences. I have no interest in that. I have no interest in, um, even -- even talking about the Manson family. I would not deny I was in it, but I have no in -- I have no interest in -- in any kind of analyzing, uh, where people were, what they did, anything like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: And I -- and I -- and I always tell when -- when I'm asked, and people say, “Oh, you were -- you were in the family.” I -- I start 'em out like this. I say, “That was in my stupid period, and --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- and I'm not there anymore.”

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Do you think a podcast would have a big audience? Because you just said you wouldn't speak to a big audience. Right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I have been -- I have been contacted with people who said, “Would -- would you like - - would you tell your story on a podcast?” I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, my question was, do you think a podcast has a big audience?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, at the time, I -- I didn't -- I didn't know how big an audience. I don't understand much about podcasts. I guess I'm -- I'm sure it could.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So -- so, in February of 2023, you were, um, on a podcast called The Lighter Side of Serial Killers. Is that correct?

INMATE DAVIS: I don't -- I don't know the name of it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you recall being on a podcast, being interviewed on a podcast in February of 2023?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. I -- I don't remember the exact date. I know I was -- I was -- I -- I talked on a podcast. Uh, I certainly didn't glamorize my past crimes or the Manson family or anything about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, this is a podcast that advertises itself as the only podcast where serial killers call the show.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I didn't call the show.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you know about the Facebook page called Helter Skelter Forum?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you recall what you talked about on the podcast?

INMATE DAVIS: Not -- not specifically.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Gimme an id - think of one or two things that you -- you talked about.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I -- I -- I don't remember specifically. I can imagine somebody said, “Well, tell us your story,” and I said, “Well, I got involved in some,” and -- and I probably said in the Manson family, “and I -- I got, uh, I got convicted for two murders, and I've been in prison for these last 50 some years.”

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you intend to write a book about, sort of like an autobiography about yourself and your experience with Manson?

INMATE DAVIS: A memoir, yeah. But -- but Manson --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: As I -- as I recall, you denied doing that at your last hearing. Did you not?

INMATE DAVIS: Denied writing a memoir?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yeah. Or that you would.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I -- I don't remember that. I shouldn't have, and if I did, I was certainly outta line.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, all right. Because you do intend to write a memoir?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And often, when you have a book, then you go on a -- a speaking tour about that book. Would that probably be part of it? Do you have a publisher for that memoir yet?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Did you announce during the -- the podcast, The Lighter Side of Serial Killers that you, um, wanted listeners to send you questions about the crime and the Manson family?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yes, ma'am. Listen, I didn't know the name of this. Now, I'll tell you, if I'd have been told the name of this is The Lighter Side of -- I would've said, “I don't want anything to do with this.” I was just told, “We'd just like to hear the story.” So, yeah. And -- and they -- they said, “People have questions.” I said, “Well, I'm open to people having questions.” Right? I'm open.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, did you -- did you say, “Here's a story that's got mystery, it's got sex, drugs, and violence.”? Do you remember saying that?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. Well, I can imagine I did say it. I don't remember exactly saying it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: I think what's surprising, Mr. Davis, is I thought the Panel made it really clear last time that -- that your public -- your plan to reach out publicly about your story, which necessarily includes your involvement with the Manson family, would bring notoriety and glorification to that. And I will tell you, when I heard that you were on this podcast, I was like, “What the heck? What is he thinking?” After we specifically said, and you were denied parole for the first time in many, many years, in part because you didn't seem to understand the danger that that kind of glorification could bring to the public. And then you go out six months, eight months later, and you do exactly that. And I'm just wondering, what do you think we should think of that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I can, under -- I -- I hear what you're saying. I -- it was never -- has never been my intention to glorify it. I -- I wanted to state, uh, that I was involved.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, you did say on the -- you did say on the podcast, “Here's a story about -- it's got mystery. It's got sex, drugs, and violence.” That's not glorifying it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I think it was a description of what I went through. I never thought in terms, now I -- I'm ignorant. Uh, I never thought it was glorifying it, and I thought I made it clear that I -- that I was against all that, and that I had stopped all that, and that that was -- that had been a -- a small part of my life, an important part, but small of my whole life.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And do you remember any of the questions that people had sent in for the podcaster to ask you?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I, uh, let's see. How long was I involved with, uh, Manson? Uh, who were some of the codefendants? Uh, kind of general questions. I -- there were -- there were quite a few questions, but they were sort of, “Who did you know?” Uh, “Who were your friends in -- in the -- in the family?” Uh, uh, “Were you at -- did you -- how long did you live on the ranch?” Uh, “When did you meet Manson?” Uh, things like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, those are all about Manson and the crime, which is what you told me you weren't going to talk about, because it was more about your redemption.

INMATE DAVIS: I did -- I never did talk -- I didn't talk about those questions back to the -- they sent me the -- the, uh, they sent me the -- a list of questions. I looked at 'em. I -- I never went back on there and said, “Oh, let me answer these questions.”

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, you're saying when you went on this podcast, the podcaster didn't say, “Welcome to The Lighter Side of Serial Killers,” or something like that?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am. No, ma'am. He did not. I di -- I didn't hear that. I'm not saying what he said, but I didn't hear that. I would've signed off.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. So, since the last hearing, we know you've participated in this podcast. Have you, um, well, let me just come out and ask. Um, there was a -- a Chrono in your file that you donated a book to the library. Do you recall? And it was about a year ago or so. Do you recall what book that was?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. I donated a couple books by, um, uh, let me get the guy's name, Montefiore, Simon Montefiore. And the books --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And the title of that book was what?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, there was two of 'em. There was one about Catherine. There was one about Catherine the Great, and one about, uh, uh, uh, uh, Stalin.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Right.

INMATE DAVIS: These were about the, uh, the -- the -- the period of, well, Stalin's reign. It was very -- I tell you, it was hard to read. Huh, man.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, what made you interested in that book?

INMATE DAVIS: I saw -- I saw Montefiore on a -- on a -- a -- a on a show, on a TV show, and he was talking about what happened in Russia and -- and his -- his, you know, the things that -- that led up to communism and -- and -- and -- and after -- after -- before and after the Second World War. And he was -- he was quite a -- quite an authority on it, and I was just interested.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So -- so, one of the descriptions of the book, I -- I have to say, again, I was a bit surprised that you were, you know, reading a book and -- and furthering other people's reading of a book about a mass murderer, essentially. And that -- that struck me as odd, so I wanted to ask you, you know, what your thinking was. I mean, I -- looking at the -- it -- the descriptions or the reviews of the book, it says, “For anyone fascinated by the nature of evil.” Uh, talked about how, you know, uh, “This is a gripping story about a man who, along with Mao, Hitler, and Genghis Khan, has to be in the running for history's greatest mass murderer.” And it -- I just don't know why you would be reading, I mean, are you still interested in people who are mass murderers?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I’m inter --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: What's the thinking?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am. I'm interested in history. It happens to have some of those people in it, unfortunately, but --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, it also has Manson in it, and it has you. I mean, that's -- right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I didn't -- I never considered myself on the same level of historical figures that they talked -- that -- that Montefiore talked about.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, granted, I -- I mean, I would agree with that. I guess I just don't understand, you know, I mean, and then you donate it to the lot -- to the library so that others can read about a mass murderer. Just, again, not a -- not a huge deal, but just sort of -- I -- it gave me a little bit of insight into, you know, kind of what you're doing with your time, and that's concerning to some extent. So, I wanted to give you a chance to talk about it.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, I never thought about, “Oh, I'm interested in a mass murderer.” I'm interested in history. What happened? How did Russia fall into the -- to the, uh, to how -- how did -- how was the czar? How did they raise -- how -- how was Nicholas involved? How did he -- how did they set him aside? How did Lenin come up? How did Trotsky happen? How did all these people happen? And -- and it starts to develop into the Soviet and, uh, and just the steps that all this took until -- till it got up to Stalin. And -- and that's what -- and the book mostly majored on him and -- and through the Second World War, and afterwards. I'm interested in the history. It could have been anybody, and -- and there was a lot of other people in it besides Stalin. I mean, the whole Russian thing was, I mean, it was hard to read. It was so cold. Boy, those people, I mean, they were -- they were, whew. I -- I -- I was reading this. I thought, “Boy, these people are possessed. They have no --"

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, what do -- do you see any similarities to what you got involved with and what Manson intended to do?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There - - there's a similarity, both are possessed by evil, and I was, too, to some degree, but I was -- I'm interested in history. I've read about the first and second World War, the Crimean War, the -- all that stuff. And -- and I've never -- I've never thought, “Oh, I'm fascinated by these killers.” I'm not. I'm appalled by that, but that was a part of history that affected the world.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But you're appalled by it but you're going out and talking on podcasts, and you're planning to write a book about it. That doesn't sound like you're appalled by it.

INMATE DAVIS: I'm not writing --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: It sounds like you want attention for it.

INMATE DAVIS: I do not want attention for that. I do not. I -- that is part of what happened to me. So, I can't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And that's what people care about. That's what they care about.

INMATE DAVIS: Well -- well, I -- I -- I wouldn't argue about that, but I'll say this, when people ask me about that, I tell them, “That was the wrong thing in my life. It was a very stupid, foolish, evil thing I did.” And I'm -- I'm not saying, I'm not denying what I did. I'm sure not glorifying it. I'm just saying, I did that. Once I -- once -- once that Jesus saved me, I -- I complete -- I -- I began to see it in a whole different way. And, but -- but that's part of the -- that's part of the steps in my life. I -- I -- and I've never glo -- I've never done anything, “Oh, that was great,” or -- or -- or, “Wasn't that good?” I've never done anything like that, and that's just not in my -- that's not my intention.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Mr. Davis, I'm gonna give, uh, turn this over to Commissioner Brueckner. I think he has some more questions for you. I know I've -- I've asked you a lot in the last one, so, um, I'm gonna give him a chance. Go ahead, Commissioner.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Good morning, Mr. Davis. Can you hear me and see me okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I can.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: So, I did wanna -- I did have just a few questions about the podcast. Um, the Commissioner referenced, uh, questions coming through, um, a Facebook group called The Helter Skelter Forum. Um, and I -- I don't recall what you said. Were you aware of that group or not?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I was not. I am not.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: What -- what type of person do you think belongs to a Facebook -- Facebook group called Helter Skelter Forum?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, let's see. I -- I'd say probably somebody that didn't have much of a personal life. They're trying to experience through something. Uh, uh, I don't know. It is a complete -- I guess it -- it's a lot of opinion on my side for what kind of person would do that. Maybe it's a person who's fascinated by -- by true crime. There's -- there's tons of -- of -- of true crime things. And so, these people, I'd -- I'd suppose, they're some -- somewhat interested in that. Uh, I've never heard of that. I -- I've never heard of that particular web fetish. I guess I'm not surprised to hear there is such a thing, but I never -- I never knew about it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. Um, how long - - how -- was this like an interview? Was the podcast like -- was it like an interview, or how did it work?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, when I was on the podcast, I wasn't -- I was only talking to one person.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Yeah.

INMATE DAVIS: I wasn't talking to --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Right.

INMATE DAVIS: -- to anybody else. And -- and the interviewer just said, “Well, what about it?” And I -- and he was asking some questions. I don't remember exactly how it went. I -- I -- it was a question and answer thing, I'm pretty sure.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. Yeah. That's what I was wondering. That's what I was wondering. Um --

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I -- I've never -- I -- I've never seen a transcript of it. I don't really -- I'm not really sure about all --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Uh, that -- but that's okay. That was just what I was asking, kind of what the -- what the format was, and question, answer, um, interview. How long did it last? How long were you being, you know, what was the podcast?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I'm not sure. Our -- our phone calls are -- are 15 minutes, uh, because the system cuts us off, and I don't remember if there was more than one. It could have been. I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly how long it went on.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: What do you mean you don't remember if it was more than one? Like, more than one phone call?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, because sometimes when -- on our phones, uh, the operator comes in and says, “You have 30 seconds,” or, “You have 60 seconds,” and then the -- the -- the phone is automatically cut off. Now, I don't remember if I -- I -- I may have called back. I don't remember doing it. I wouldn't -- if I did, I'm not, you know, I -- I -- I very well could've.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. Well, I mean, don't, you know, don't -- don't guess, don't speculate. We're not -- we're not really -- we're not really interested in that. I just want to know what you recall. And if you don't recall an answer to a question, you're -- it is totally fine to say, “I don't know.” Um, but to the best of your recollection, how do you -- how long do you think the interview was? Do you think it was about 15 minutes or -- or longer?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, at least 15 minutes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. But you -- do you think there was more than one phone call, or just one phone call?

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I -- as I said before, I don't remember a second phone call. Now, I'm not saying it didn't happen. I -- I just don't remember.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. Well, that -- that's -- that's what I'm asking. Have you read any other books about World War II recently, in the past couple years?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, let's see. I read, uh, All the Light We Cannot See. I read a book called Hansel and Gretel. I read, um, I don't -- I don't remember anymore exactly.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. This, um, the, um, we talked about the, you know, the name of this forum, the Helter Skelter Forum. What -- the term -- the term Helter Skelter, what -- what -- what was that? What -- what -- what did that mean?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, first it was -- it was a title of a song by the Beatles, and Helter Skelter means chaos.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: What did it mean in the context of the Manson family when Manson, you know, used the word Helter Skelter? I think maybe it was written. What did the -- what did the, um, what did it mean in -- in the term -- in the context of the Manson family?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, uh, Helter Skelter, I guess, well, it did. It -- it -- it -- it -- it encased, it -- it framed a -- a -- a social racial uprising. That was, uh, that's the big picture. That's what it, yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Like a -- like a race -- like a race war?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yeah. And, uh, it was -- it was kind -- it kind of framed this. The, uh, the assassination of John Kennedy, the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, the assassination of Martin Luther King, the riots in Detroit, in, uh, uh, Newark, New Jersey, uh, the bombing in -- in Birmingham, uh, the -- the Watts riots. Uh, a lot of things like that, and -- and that were all happening fairly simultaneously at this time. Right? And so, and -- and -- and -- and the Helter Skelter was kind of -- kind of the -- the bottom line where it all was going to, the - - the development of the -- of the, uh, of the Black Panthers and -- and the, uh, the -- the Marxist of -- elements of that, uh, and all kind of just parts of the details. And of course, part of -- part of the fantasy was at the end that -- that -- that -- in Charlie's story, was that he -- we were gonna come out, he was going to be all right, and he was going to have a -- an authority figure. He would be a -- he would be a person who -- who was the - - the sage of it all. Right? And that, uh, uh, well, that's -- that's how he told it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Right.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. How many -- how many murders were committed by the Manson family?

INMATE DAVIS: Nine, to my knowledge.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: And do you know who those people are?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Who are they?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, Gary Hinman was first, I -- was my first case. Then -- then the, uh, the Tate-LaBianca --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Yeah.

INMATE DAVIS: -- with Sharon Tate, uh, Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Steve Parent, Steve Sebring. There was five people there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Mm-hm. Hinman, Tate, Folger. Go ahead. So, the Gary Hinman, uh, the -- the -- the -- the --

INMATE DAVIS: And -- and Donald Shea, the la -- that was the case I was involved in.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. And there's -- and two more?

INMATE DAVIS: Two more?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: The -- the -- the -- the LaBiancas. Yes?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, and Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. That's right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. What was -- what was -- what would you say was your -- your role, your -- your responsibility? Um, you know, what -- what part did you play in those murders?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was directly responsible for Gary Hinman and Donald Shea.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And I have some, uh, moral responsibility for all the rest 'cause I -- I stayed with the family. I didn't tell 'em, “No.” I was an older person, and so I had influence just by being older. And, uh, and I -- I -- I didn't do anything to, uh, tell them this is wrong. Uh, I didn't necessarily tell 'em it was right, but I -- I'd never cautioned anyone. So, I'm, uh, I'm responsible for -- for that and -- and messing up not only the families of the victims, but the families of everybody involved. Like -- like, all the young kids in the family, their -- their parents lost their children to a great degree and -- and their families.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: What do you think would've happened if you, um, I think you said, you know, didn't you -- you said -- say, if you said no, I think is how you said it. You know, if you said no, what do you think -- what do you think would've happened?

INMATE DAVIS: If what?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Well, you said, you -- you know, you -- you -- you -- part of your responsibility is the fact that you didn't stand up and say no. You didn't say, you know, you didn't speak out. And so, my question is, what -- what do you think would've happened if you had spoken out?

INMATE DAVIS: Well -- well, I -- if -- if I'd have had -- if I'd have been, uh, if I had have spoken out, if I'd been brave enough to speak out, well, one of the things I would've done would've left. I wouldn't have stayed there. Right? But, uh, if -- if so, if I'd have -- if I'd have said, “This is all wrong,” uh, I would've had to, you know, I would've probably had to deal with Charlie and -- and -- and -- and Steve and -- and -- and Charles Watson in some way or another or leave. Uh, that's the only thing I can think of that would've been -- that would've happened. I might've -- I might've cautioned some of the young members. They might've left, too, maybe. It's hard to tell. But, uh, I wish I had of, of course. But --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: You wish --

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: You wish you had what?

INMATE DAVIS: I wish I'd have -- I would've -- wish I'd have cautioned them. I wish I'd have done something to stop this. I had a chance to do it in the Hinman case. I could have walked out and just gone down the -- gone down the hill to a very short place to the Sheriff's office in, uh, in Malibu. I wasn't -- that never crossed my mind, I must say, I should -- I wish it had of.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Were there any o -- were there any other murders committed by the Manson family that, for which, uh, no one was convicted?

INMATE DAVIS: Not to my knowledge.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Um, you men -- you mentioned, uh, the Gary, uh, Gary Hinman a moment ago. What was your -- and what was you -- I think you said something to the effect that you were directly -- directly responsible or -- or words to that effect. What -- what was your role in that murder?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it started out, I was -- I drove -- I drove, uh, Bobby and, uh, and Susan and Mary and Ellen to Gary's house, and, uh, I, and -- and let them out. Uh, I wasn't considering anything that was going to happen. I drove -- I went back to the ranch. I came back later. I drove -- I drove Manson back a couple days later.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: So, my -- my -- my question is, what was your -- you said you were directly - - directly responsible. So, I'm wondering what that means. So, you said you drove Bobby, Susan, and Ellen, uh, to Gary's house. Is that it?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. That's not it, but that's the beginning of it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Well, what's the --

INMATE DAVIS: A few days later at the ranch, Bobby called the ranch and talked to Manson, and Manson says, “We gotta go back to Gary's.” So, we went back. Now, this is -- here was my direct responsibility. I was in the house. Gary and, uh, uh, Bobby had had a fight. Uh, Bobby got the gun back, my gun, I'm sorry to say, and, uh, uh, they were having an argument and Char -- and -- and Manson was having an argument. And I was -- I was standing there without a -- without a care in the world about what was going on with Gary, how this might affect anything around him. Um, I had -- I had no concern about -- about the -- the -- the implications that all this was gonna bring about.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: So, I just got -- kinda wanna redirect you a little bit. I'm -- the -- my -- I'm -- my question is, I'm just trying -- I -- to determine what your -- your -- your direct role is. So, you mentioned, you said you drove Bobby, uh, Susan, and Ellie to Gary's house, and then a few --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: And then a few days later, you, um, drove Manson over there.

INMATE DAVIS: Drove Manson back. Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Is that -- is that - - is that the day that Gary was murdered?

INMATE DAVIS: No, uh, uh, that was not the day. But while I was in the house and Manson attacked Gary, I was the only one with a firearm. I could have stopped it right there. And now, I'm going to tell you, I didn't even think about stopping it. But I see, I -- I -- if I'd have been in my right mind, I would've. And, uh --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: You said you --

INMATE DAVIS: I just, I was --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: You said you were the only one with the firearm. So, you were -- you were -- you were in possession of a firearm during, uh --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: -- when he was killed? What did you do with the firearm?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, I wasn't -- I wasn't in possession of a firearm when he was killed. Bobby and Gary had had a -- had a fight, and the bullet -- the -- the gun had gone off. I got the gun back from Bobby, and I had it in my hand and -- and when Manson attacked Gary, so I could've stopped it off right there. Now, I wasn't thinking about stopping it, but I sure could've. I wasn't thinking about any of the --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: I -- I understand. So, you weren't holding the gun during -- at the time when Gary was killed?

INMATE DAVIS: No. He was killed later. He was killed I don't know how many days later. But he wasn't killed -- I was not there when he was killed. He wasn't -- he wasn't killed with a gun. But I -- I wasn't there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: And, um, Donald Shea, I think you also mentioned you were directly responsible for his murder. Yes?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, sir.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: And what was --

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: What was your responsibility for his murder?

INMATE DAVIS: I went with, uh, with -- with, uh, with Manson and Grogan and Watson in the car with -- with Mr. Shea. He was driving. And, uh, we were under the pretense that we were going down to the valley to get some car parts, and I was in the car when he was attacked. I was in the backseat with -- with Grogan. Uh, uh, Watson pulled, uh, pulled the car over, got the car pulled over, pulled Mr. Shea into the underbrush down the hill. I came -- Manson came up behind me in another car. He said, “Come on. Let's go.” And so, I went down there, and, um, um, I - - I -- they were -- Mr. Shea had already been stabbed several times. I don't know how many times, but several. And, uh, my responsibility was that I took part in it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: What -- what -- what did you -- what did you do? What was your part?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the part -- first -- first, I agreed to go, and then I went, and then I went into the murder scene itself, and then I did nothing about what was happening. I just stood there. And then, uh, Manson handed me a machete and said, “Cut his head off,” and I actually took the machete in my hand, but I couldn't do it. I dropped it. Then Manson handed me a knife. He said, “You better do something.” I knew what that meant, and so, I cut Mr. Shea in his -- in his -- his -- his right, uh, armpit up to his collarbone. That -- that -- that was the -- my attack. That's how -- that's -- that was my part of the -- of the actual physical murder, uh, you know, with the weapon.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: I think I read something to the effect of, uh, some conversation after the murder of Mr. Shea. And, um, there were, um, describing, um, how he was killed, I think in particular, uh, the fact that he was -- he was beheaded. Correct?

INMATE DAVIS: He was not beheaded.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Oh, okay. Um, um, you -- you said, um, I'm sorry.

INMATE DAVIS: But here's what -- here's what I think -- I think what we're all talking about is a -- is a -- is a scene at -- at the Barker Ranch. I think it’s there, and it -- becau -- Manson said, “Here, we'll -- we're going to make this as -- as gruesome as ever to everybody we tell about it.” And it was to the motorcycle guys, to the outlaw motorcycles. And -- and -- and said, “Yeah, how we -- we cut Shea’s his head off and cut him up in little pieces. We're going to tell them that.” That didn't happen.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: But that's what we told them. We were -- it was bragging and -- and being -- and just being foolish. But we're -- we were -- and that's how that came out, and -- and that's when I mentioned what I did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. Have you, um, you know, taken part directly, either, you know, by yourself or with any -- anyone else, um, in any other murders?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: I read -- I read, uh, somewhere on the Central File a reference to, um, a person named John Philip Haught, H-A-U-G-H-T.

INMATE DAVIS: Mm-hm.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: You know -- you know who that is?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I do.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: You didn't -- you -- did you have any -- did you play -- were you any part of his death?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not part of his death. I was in the house. I was -- we were staying on -- in Clubhouse, uh, Street -- Clubhouse Street in Venice. And, um, I was in the front room, and I heard a pop. I thought somebody, it sounded like shooting firecrackers. And I thought, “Well, lemme get back.” So, I went back. Little Patty was on -- laying there on the bed with, we called him Zero. That -- that's how I knew -- that's the name I knew him by. And she said, “Zero just killed himself,” or, “just shot himself.” And I -- I was -- nah. And, uh, that -- that -- that was a shock to me. And, uh, I've never -- I've never heard of -- never seen anybody that had committed suicide, for sure.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Um, I read -- I read reference to names of, um, Doreen Gaul and James Sharp. I think that maybe Doreen was an ex -- ex-girlfriend?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not mine.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. Did you -- you didn't have any -- you didn't have any part in their deaths?

INMATE DAVIS: I've never heard of those. I -- I -- I've heard of it. I've heard it. I've seen it listed, but I -- I don't -- I don't know who they were.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. And then I also heard a -- a reference to a, uh, uh, a Joel Pugh. Um --

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, who was he?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: I'm asking you.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, oh, okay. This was, uh, uh, I know who it was. Uh, Sandy Good. I think it's Sandy Good's boyfriend.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And -- and -- and he was -- he -- he was killed in England, and, uh, and I was accused of that by whoever for a long time until the British Home Office said I was not in the country. They had records of when I came to and when I left.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And they said, “You're not -- Davis was not in the country.”

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: So, you were not --

INMATE DAVIS: I never knew --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: You were not in the country on the day that he was killed?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And so, that --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Um, okay. Um, I kind of want to move on to, uh, what we call post-conviction. Um, but, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Commissioner?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Can we take a quick break?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yep. That's what I was gonna ask for.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Yeah. Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. It -- we've been going a while. It's 9:32 a.m. Let's take a five to ten minute break. What do you think? Five minutes okay for everybody, or --

ATTORNEY HART: Can we say ten? Sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yes.

ATTORNEY HART: Could we say ten? Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Of course. So, we'll come back around 9:42 a.m., then.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: We're back on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: It is 9:48 a.m., and everyone has returned from the break. Uh, go ahead, Commissioner.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Um, Mr. Davis, the Commissioner asked you a few moments ago, um, about, I think, well, I think you called it a memoir. You're -- you're planning on writing your -- your memoir?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Um, have you started that?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: How far along are you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I laid it out from one end to the other. All the -- a lot -- many of the det -- I haven't filled in everything. It's kind of an a -- it's more -- well, it's a little more than an outline, but, uh, it's laid out.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: So, you’ve got kind of like an outline or you kinda organized, you know, what you want to do?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it -- it started with -- it started with 1840 with my great-grandfather.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Yeah. Okay. And -- and then -- and -- but you haven't written, actually started writing any kind of, like, substantive part of it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yeah, there's parts of it where the -- where I filled in, you know, in my early life and things, and -- and it -- it’s not -- it's not just a -- a bullet point outline. I don't mean to say that at all.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER BRUECKNER: Okay. That's okay. Actually, I was just curious. I -- I think that's fair. Um, okay. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Let me ask a question about the podcast. Um, when were you first contacted by the podcast or about the podcast?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, you know, I don't remember the date exactly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Uh, like the year, maybe? I mean, was it right before you did it, or was it, you know, a long time ahead of that?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, you did it in February, it looks like. February of 2023 is when it was published, so --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Does that help?

INMATE DAVIS: I probably did it sometime before that. Uh, they -- I -- if I understand the way this goes, I'm not really sure, but, uh, they, uh, they edit it. They -- they edit the questions and answers and to make it into a, you know, some kind of a plausible scenario, uh, for people to listen to. So, but I -- I don't know exactly. I don't remember exactly. I didn't write down the date I got contacted. Uh, so, I -- I don't really -- I've never really thought about, you know, keeping a record like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Oh, that's all right. Um, do you remember what the person who contacted you about it, you know, said about the podcast? Like, what -- what it would be about, uh, you know, how many listeners they have, any -- anything like that? Do you remember?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, he said -- he said, uh, he said, “We have a podcast.” And -- and, uh, I don't know if he told me how many listeners he had. Uh, I don't remember that. He may have. And -- and he said -- he said, uh, he said, “I'm interested in your story.” And I said, “Okay.”

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And so, I told -- I told it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Have you been contacted by anybody else, like, either a publisher or a podcaster or a -- an author, um, about sharing your story in the past? Have you been contacted?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And have you participated in those things? You know, what was asked of you then?

INMATE DAVIS: Say again?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Have you p -- have you agreed to, you know, participate or -- or get involved with -- well, let me scratch that whole question. You have been contacted in the past. Can you tell us who you've been contacted by to share your story?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, okay, uh, a lady named Mia Stone, Stone, Sloan (phonetic) contacted me. And, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And what did she want?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, we had a person -- the -- the man who was -- who owned the house where -- where Zero committed suicide was -- whe wrote a story about him, and when she talked to him, he mentioned me, and then she got in touch with me, and -- and -- and we talked a little while, and then we just -- that was the end of it. It wasn't -- there wasn't anything else.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, did anyone else, like a publisher, writer --

INMATE DAVIS: In my creative writing class, uh, we -- we -- we have, uh, Bob Goff who's a -- a -- a -- he's a -- a writer, publisher, has ministries in Uganda and Nepal around. He just -- he's a -- he's really a minister, but he does publish books, and -- and they came and asked us to write our stories. So, I told 'em something about it. And, um, finally, uh, we had a -- they -- they have an editor. Her name's Kim. I don't know her last name. And I showed her, I -- I gave her the outline. I gave her what had written. It was over a hundred pages. And, uh, uh, I - - I -- I just said, “Hey, uh, what do you think?” She said, “Well,” you know, um, uh, then -- then Bob says, he -- he -- he comes on a, uh, texted me on my thing, said, “Well, do you need editing help or publishing help?” And I said, “I need everything if, eventually, you know, but -- but mainly the editing 'cause I don't know -- I don't know how to do this.” But, um, so that's all -- that's all in the future, and nothing's on pa -- no -- there's been no contracts or anything like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: But --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Anyone else that you can think of that's contacted you in, let's say, the last few years about sharing your story?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, well, there's a -- there's -- there's a podcast about, uh, criminal gangs, crim -- uh, from -- from a brother that's in here. His wife has it. And, uh, uh, he said -- he said, “We just want to hear stories about people who have come out of crime to -- to - - to the Lord, and what they have to say about that.” And so, I've talked to him -- I've talked to him about that. Uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Anything else you can think of?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, those are the only -- let's see. Uh, those are the only two that I -- I'm not saying - - I don't remember anymore.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, uh, let's start with the podcast. Was there anything promised in exchange for you to participate in this podcast?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I mean, other than I get to talk.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. What about with the other contacts you said, with the publisher, editor?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, no, no, nothing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, no -- no offer of, like, “We're gonna buy the rights to this,” or anything like that?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am. Not even -- nothing. No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, at this time, the Panel has decided we will continue this hearing. Um, we're going to order an investigation into this podcast. Uh, we do think it's very relevant to the determination of public safety and, um, for reasons that were explained in the previous, uh, decision. So, uh, we will be continuing this hearing. Uh, what that means is, uh, the Board's Investigative Unit will conduct the investigation, uh --

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: The hearing will be placed back on calendar. Uh, as soon as that is completed and the -- and notice can be provided, I can't give a timeframe, but I would, a rough estimate would be about six months. Uh, it could be sooner than that. Um, I also, at this time, uh, we do give the victims next of kin a right to speak. So, uh, if -- if anyone would like to speak -- actually, I see Ms. Hart, you look like you wanna say something. Go ahead.

ATTORNEY HART: I do, Commissioner, and thank you. Um, I think it's really important to make a record here about the fact that Mr. Davis is 81, or 80 years old. He has spent 51 years in custody. And I -- while this case is notorious, I do not believe that Mr. Davis has a desire to glorify the story, and I think that were we to continue in this hearing, what would come out is that this is an attempt on his part, really, to examine the bad choices that he has made in his life and to talk about them. But that that is what his goals and his intentions were in participating in podcasts or in preparing his memoir as we've, um, heard reference to. And I -- I really do think it's important to say that if we forget about history, we really, we risk repeating it, and I believe that is what Mr. Davis has in mind as he continues to examine his life, and I think it is important that that's a consideration for everyone here. I don't -- nobody wants this story to be repeated. Um, and so, I -- I just, at the very least, wanted to put that on the record, and I hope that the Board, as they participate in this, uh, investigation, really do look at it from that angle, as well. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: I -- I really appreciate that, Ms. Hart. I -- I -- I hear you loud and clear. I agree with you. I -- I do think that it, um, you know, I -- we don't take this continuance lightly. Um, I think that the real concern is the vagueness about what he said, what he knew, uh, when the contacts were, how long has this, you know, did this happen. Without that? I mean, you know, the fact that it's out there leads -- makes us concerned about public safety. If an investigation reveals that this is, you know, not something that could contribute to a -- a public safety, you know, a danger to public safety, then we should know that. And -- and -- and that's where we are left in a vacuum of really not understanding it. And again, this was a concern of the last Panel for the very reasons of the potential impact on society. And so, that's where we are. Um, so I -- but I do appreciate it, and I do hope that this is something that can be expedited and -- and brought back before the Board as -- as -- as soon as possible, and we will definitely make note of that in the record for the very reasons you talk about.

ATTORNEY HART: Thank you, Commissioner. And I -- I would just, for the record, also just object to the continuance. I -- I do think that, uh, Mr. Davis, um, does have a, um, pressing need to go forward here and, um, to have his hearing. So, thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And -- and that objection is overruled at this time for the reasons that we've stated. But again, we appreciate your input on that. So, as I mentioned, let me -- let me go through this. Um, so, we will be continuing the hearing. Uh, the family members do have a right to speak today if they'd like. Um, it would be part of the record of this hearing. Um, we won't be -- the Panel won't be making a decision today, so, um, you know, and you will obviously be given a right to speak at the continued hearing, uh, when we will be making a decision. So, um, but either way, you do have a right to speak today. So, Ms. Pickford, you're on my screen, so I'll start with you. Did you wanna make a statement today or wait until the continued hearing?

MS. PICKFORD: I am a little bit torn on this. A lot of things came to light just listening to, uh, Mr. Davis and hearing about the podcast, and his plans to basically make money, have fame off of this is really disturbing to me. Um, he, you know, he was originally sentenced to death. We all know that. He wasn't sentenced to life with a chance of parole because everyone thought that he was going to, you know, be rehabilitated and redeemed. You know, letting him out and then letting him profit off of these terrible, horrific serial killings he did is -- is extremely, extremely disturbing. Um, and again, I apologize. I will say more at the continuance and hopefully have myself a little bit more emotionally together. Uh, but I just wanted to at least mention that. So, thank you for continuing and, um, investigating what he's doing. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Thank you, Ms. Pickford. Ms. Martley, would you like to make any statement now or -- or wait until the continued hearing?

MS. MARTLEY: Uh, I'd like to make a statement now.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Go ahead.

MS. MARTLEY: Okay. Um, good day. My name is Kay Hinman Martley. I am Gary Hinman's cousin, and I'm here to speak for him and other members of the Gary's family to request that you deny Bruce Davis parole and prevent his release from prison. Uh, Gary was, uh, Davis was convicted of first-degree murder in 1972 for his participation in the torture and killing of my cousin. That he remains in prison after 52 years and 32 parole hearings speaks to his continued unsuitability for release. After all this time, there is clearly no possibility of redemption for Davis. The incarcerated members of the Manson family cult who participated in this crime rarely acknowledge the brutality and extreme violence of their actions when they speak at these hearings. Davis, in particular, has a long history of minimizing his role in Gary's murder, as well as the murder of Donald Shea. In failing to take full responsibility for his actions, he usually blames Manson or uses the hedonistic lifestyle he was leading at the time as an excuse for his murderous behavior. At his last parole hearing, Davis even blamed the Governor for his continued incarceration. While his attorney has claimed his client is a political prisoner, something that would be laughable if it wasn't so offensive. At this point, I'd like to remind everybody of the horrific circumstances of Gary's death. Gary was held captive and tortured for three days in his home by the Manson gang. Davis drove them all there knowing they intended to rob Gary of money, and that he believed Gary was working on, excuse me, believed he had. Gary was working on a doctorate in social work at the time. He was soft-spoken and gentle. He was also a devout Buddhist and begged over and over for the -- his captors to leave and spare him. They showed him no mercy. Instead, they subjected him to further extreme violence. Davis drove to Gary's house the second time bringing Manson. Davis then held a gun on Gary while Manson slashed his face with a sword, almost cutting his ear off. Davis left Gary wounded, bleeding, and terrified to his fate at the hands of his captors. Manson ordered Gary killed, and afterwards he was beaten severely, stabbed twice through the heart. The killers used his blood to paint slogans on the walls blaming the Black Panthers. Then they fled, literally leaving Gary to rot in the summer heat. His body was found for -- wasn't found for a week. I've been told the stench inside the house was horrendous, and Gary's blood was everywhere. Bruce Davis believes he has paid his debt for the pivotal role he played in the murder of my cousin. As far as I'm concerned, he has already been rewarded handsomely with a long life when Gary's ended before he was even reached his 35th birthday. Davis was given a three-year denial in July 2022, yet here we are again, a year and a half later, arguing to keep him in prison. The pain and the ugliness of Gary's death is a nightmare that will never end for my family. Every time we have to listen to Davis express contrition for his crimes and claims he’s a changed man who has given his life to Christ. Yet last year following his 2022 parole denial, Davis appeared on episodes hosted by a serial killer calling in from San Quentin on two different occasions. The title of this podcast is The Lighter Side of Serial Killers. I would very much like to know what Davis thinks the lighter side of a serial killer is. I would like to hear him explain what the lighter side of my cousin Gary's murder is. I very much doubt he has an answer. We often hear Davis talk in these hearings about his plans to speak publicly about his life when he leaves prison, and that he wants to use his own politic -- religious conversion to lead others out of the darkness and away from crime. On this podcast, dare -- Davis didn't talk about that at all. He just reminisced about the good old days with the Manson family as if he was talking about his old high school buddies, but these aren't high school buddies. They're members of one of the most vicious gangs of murders in American history. Davis also revealed that he is writing a book about his life and requested that listeners of the serial killer podcast ask him questions to help him jog his memories. He also expressed his desire to elicit contributions from other members of the Manson family. This is the true face of Bruce Davis, one he chooses not to show to the Commissioner in these hearings, a man who continues to revel in his crimes and receives an ego boost through his association with the Manson family. Davis has shown us he's exactly the same person he was when he entered prison over half a century ago. He has not changed one bit from the callous and unthinking person who participated in the vicious murder of my cousin. His decision to appear on a podcast glorifying serial killers shows the kind of poor decision making and criminal thinking that continues to make Davis unsuitable for life outside of prison. For that and many other reasons, I request you deny him parole, but I am glad you are going to explore the podcast. I think it's important, uh, that that is brought out. Thank you very much.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you, Ms. Martley. Uh, Mr. DiMaria, would you -- or DiMaria, would you like to make a statement now or wait until the final hearing?

MR. DIMARIA: Uh, I'll wait to, uh, till the final hearing. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And Ms. Tate, would you like to make a statement now or wait?

MS. TATE: I would like to make a statement now.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Go ahead, ma'am.

MS. TATE: Um, Commissioners, I would like to bring it to your attention, as Ms. Marley did, that it wasn't one podcast, but it was two podcasts. I believe the first one lasted 45 minutes, and the second one was approximately an hour and five minutes. Um, there's also a jail -- a article that was released, uh, written by a yard mate, a -- a co-inmate illustrated, I see -- I see Mr. Davis's fingerprints all over it. I also see illustrations done by others where he's assuming the crucifixion position, and I think it's very inflammatory, these pieces of art that he's obviously approved. I would also like to bring up that in the podcast, the interviewer says that they have been friends for over six years, so I haven't -- I doubt very much that the direction of this podcast was not discussed at all. Um, I think that there are fingerprints that -- of Mr. Davis's all over these publications as well as others. Um, you asked a question about Doreen Gaul and Steve, her boyfriend, in previous parole hearings. Other Commissioners have asked about it, and the answer was much different. Um, he did know. At that time, he knew. He may have forgotten since. That's a possibility, but at that time, he knew that they were, um, classmates in the Scientology program in Los Angeles. And never, ever, and I've talked to Interpol and a number of investigators including the original investigators in the trials, never have I heard anybody say that the British authorities pro -- proved that he was not in England at the time. As a matter of fact, I've heard to the contrary. So, those are all things that I would like to bring to your attention that perhaps you could look into. To me, today, uh, this is all very disturbing. The fact that he can't even recall possible other murder victims that have been brought up in recent hearings, um, shows me once again, and this instills fear in -- in myself as well as the other immediate family members, but also the general public to the lack of empathy and insight to the original crime. In 50 years, he has not yet taken the actions seriously enough to remember the names of the individuals that, whether by his hands or his lack of influence, have been erased from the earth, and how many of their family members are forever altered as a result of those actions. I, for one, appreciate very much that you're going to be looking into these things and would like, if you like -- would like to call me, or need to, please feel free. I have been present at these things since pretty much at the beginning of time. I've attended every hearing since 1998 and helped my mother prepare for hers. So, since the beginning of victim's rights, which has now been adopted in California State Constitution, my family has been front and center. And by the way, my name has been released in the jailhouse article, which was picked up by CieloDrive.com, and I've been receiving all kinds of, “Hi Debra,” messages, which often happens when people bring my name up. And also, during a break last time when Mr. Davis didn't realize anybody else could be listening, I was referred to in an extremely questionable manner. And I do believe a couple of my other people were present for that or heard part of it, and Mr. Davis's attorney had to tell him that his mic and camera were still on, at which point it went off. But it was -- it was in an extremely alarming manner. So, for these reasons, I really appreciate that you're going to be doing an investigation, and I pray that you get all the information you need. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you, Ms. Tate. Appreciate that.

MS. TATE: Have a great day.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Thank you. All right. Um, I think that's everyone because Mr. Campion, you're a support person, not a representative, so I don't believe you have a right to speak. Do you know that?

MR. CAMPION: That's -- that's -- that's fine.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right. Well, thank you everyone. Uh, I think we've made it pretty clear what we're doing and why we're doing it. Uh, so, you all will be given notice of the continued hearing when it is set on calendar. Uh, and it, if at all possible, it will still be the same Panel. If it's not Commissioner Brueckner and myself it will be assigned to a new Panel, uh, and they would probably start over with that investigation as being part of the record. Uh, but hopefully, in continued hearings, we generally like to have the same Panel. So, hopefully that will be the case. All right. So, uh, 10:13 a.m., and this hearing is continued for now. Thanks everyone.