• Bruce Davis • 2022

SUBSEQUENT PAROLE CONSIDERATION HEARING
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS

In the matter of the Life Term Parole Consideration Hearing of:
BRUCE DAVIS
CDC Number: B-41079

SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON SAN QUENTIN, CALIFORNIA
07/08/2022
08:41 AM

PANEL PRESENT:
JULIE GARLAND, Presiding Commissioner
RACHEL STERN, Deputy Commissioner

OTHERS PRESENT:
BRUCE DAVIS, Inmate
MICHAEL BECKMAN, Attorney for Inmate
KAYE MARTLEY, VNOK
DEBORAH TATE, Victim’s Representative
ANTHONY DIMARIA, Victim’s Representative
UNIDENTIFIED, Correctional Officers

PROCEEDINGS

COMMISSIONER STERN: Commissioner, we're on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Good morning, everyone. It is July 8th, 2022, and the time is 8:41 AM. And this is a subsequent parole suitability hearing for Bruce Davis, CDCR number B41079. Mr. Davis is present in the Board of Parole Hearings room at San Quentin State Prison. All other participants are appearing remotely by Microsoft Teams, either audio or video. Mr. Davis was received into CDCR on April 21st, 1972, following, uh, two first degree murder convictions from Los Angeles County, serving a life sentence. This hearing is being audio recorded and it will be transcribed as the official record of the hearing. And under the Penal Code, there is no other recording permitted, and that includes the technology available on the Microsoft Teams, uh, software. For the purpose of voice identification, I will call on each person to state their full name and spell their last name. When we get to you, Mr. Davis, please also state your CDCR number. I'll go first. My name is Julie Garland, G-A-R-L-A-N-D, and I'm a Commissioner with the Board of Parole Hearings.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Rachel Stern, Deputy Commissioner Board of Parole Hearings. My last name is spelled S-T-E-R-N.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Counsel.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Michael Beckman, B-E-C-K-M-A-N, Attorney for Mr. Davis.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Mr. Davis.

INMATE DAVIS: D-A-V-I-S, B41079.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And your first name, sir?

INMATE DAVIS: Bruce. I'm sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: That's okay. Um, excuse me. Um, Ms. Martley.

VNOK MARTLEY: Kaye Hinman-Martley, M-A-R-T-L-E-Y, family member of Gary Hinman.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. Uh, I'll go in order of my list. Ms. Tate.

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE TATE: Deborah Tate, T-A-T-E, representative for the Hinman, the Hinman family.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you. And Mr. DiMaria.

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE DIMARIA: Uh, Anthony DiMaria, D-I-M-A-R-I-A, Hinman family representative.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Thank you, Mr. Davis, were you able to hear and see everyone, well, hear everyone who identified themselves?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I was.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. If any, if that changes at any time, if you see any, you know, freezing on the screen, just wave your hands, let me know and we can take a break to try to resolve that. All right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: We may also have Correctional Officers in the room from time to time for security purposes. So let me check now with Commissioner Stern. Do we need to take a break to check the quality of the recording?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Yes, please. Just give me a moment.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: We are recording again.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Mr. Davis, the next thing we need to take care of is a review under the Americans with Disabilities Act. And this is to make sure that you have all the accommodations you need to fully participate this morning.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Commissioner, we'll stipulate that no ADA issues must be dealt with today.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: They still have to be dealt with. I need to put on record that he has everything that he's been accommodated with. I will ask you if there are any further, but I do need to go through this, uh, for our record. So according to our records, Mr. Davis, you have, um, I see that you have a walker, a wheelchair, and a cane assigned to you. Which, which one are you using today?

INMATE DAVIS: I'm not using any of them today. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Oh, okay. Was that related to your, I think you had a hip issue or a hip replacement coming up.

INMATE DAVIS: I had it last September.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. And so, you don't need those things anymore.

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: I also show you have compression, compression, stockings assigned to you. Do you need, was that also related to the hip?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yeah, yes, it was. I don't need any of that anymore.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. And it's still in your record, so I am going to just make sure. I, I show that you also have glasses assigned to you, but I don't see you wearing them. Do you need those today?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. All right. And then you have, uh, I obviously know comprehension issues. You have a TABE score of 12.9, high school grad and, and you earned a PhD while you were in prison. Is that right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Are you, you're currently in the CCCMS program, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. You do get an accommodation for that. That is, that will be your Attorney today. Um, and I think that is and based on your comment earlier, Mr. Beckman, I assume you have no other concerns. So, um, based on those responses, actually, let me just confirm, are you taking any medications that can affect your ability to participate or just affect your, you know, sitting still paying attention? Anything like that?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Thank you. So based on those responses, I see no reason we cannot continue with the hearing. Mr. Beckman, do you have any additional documents or preliminary motions or objections?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Um, no additional documents at this time. I'll reserve the right in case. I need to submit the (Inaudible). Um, no, no, no preliminary objections at this time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Very good. All right. So, Mr. Davis, I totally understand you've been through this many times, um, and you probably know, know the format. I am going to just go through it so it's clear for all the participants what we're going to be doing today.

INMATE DAVIS: All right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, did I, oh, did you say all right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right. So, we'll start with questions from the Deputy Commissioner and myself. We'll be talking to you about various issues that we think will be relevant to determining your suitability today. After that, your Attorney will have an opportunity to ask you clarifying questions, and then a closing statement, which will be limited to 10 minutes. After that, you will have an opportunity to give a closing statement yourself. Once that is completed, the family members and their representatives have the right to speak last to the Panel. Uh, and so I will allow them to speak in whatever order, uh, they wish. And, um, once their statements are completed, Commissioner Stern and I will disconnect from this hearing and go into a separate room to deliberate. We'll come back on the record and state our decision and the reasons for it. As you know, we're not here to reconsider or retry your case. We accept as true the findings of the previous courts. The purpose of today's hearing is to determine who you are today and whether your release would pose an unreasonable risk to public safety. Our guidelines, uh, require us to consider several factors, and that includes your prior criminal history and the life crimes, your behavior and programming since you came to prison, as well as your parole plans if you are released. We may not discuss every factor in detail. Uh, there are extensive documents and other transcripts in the record, all of which we incorporate into the record of this hearing. So, we're going to focus our discussion on the things that we feel will really help us determine your suitability today. We have reviewed the Comprehensive Risk Assessment, the documents submitted to the Board before the hearing, your Central File. We've also reviewed transcripts and documents from prior Board proceedings. We've looked at the confidential portion of your file. We will let you know if we're relying on anything in that. And we do note that you qualify under the elderly parole statute. So, the Panel will give special consideration to the elderly parole factors in determining your suitability. And if there are any topics that are not covered during the hearing that you believe are important, please feel free to address those with your Attorney during clarifying questions or in your closing statement. And if at any time, you or anyone on the, the hearing today would like a break at any time, please just let me know. We can arrange for that. Finally, as you can probably see already, I look away from the camera quite a bit. I have several documents up on my screen. I just want you to know, uh, that I can see and hear you at all times, even if I'm not looking directly at the screen, at the camera. So, Mr. Davis, your testimony will be under oath today, and I encourage you to be completely honest with us, even if that means being, you know, clarifying something that you may have said at previous hearings. Uh, we really just want the truth from you today. So please raise your right hand and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you give at this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Very good. Thank you. All right. So, um, as I said, you've been through this a lot, many times. Um, I am going to cover some things that you've talked to other Commissioners about, but hopefully, you know, not spend, uh, too much time on those, because again, there are things in the record, but I, I absolutely want to give you a chance to clarify anything you've said before that, you know, that, that maybe wasn't what you think now. So, uh, feel free to do that throughout the hearing as I'm asking you questions. I am going to start with just a sort of general question. Um, you know, you've had, I think this is your 34th hearing. Does that sound about right?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I had 33 on another document. I haven't really counted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. I think it's the 33rd subsequent, which means the first one.

INMATE DAVIS: That’s why.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Now is 34th. I could be wrong. Um, and you've been eligible for parole, you know, for, for many times. So, I'm going to ask you just to, in your own words, how would you characterize the reason that you're still in prison?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I had a life sentence.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, but there are a lot of people with life sentences who get out on their first or second hearing.

INMATE DAVIS: Mm-hm. (Inaudible).

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why do you think you're, why do you think you’re still in prison?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the Governors have always seem shift to, uh, veto your, your decisions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why do you think that is? Why do you think they veto?

INMATE DAVIS: They don’t feel good about me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. They don't feel good about you. So, the reason that you're in prison still is because of the Governor's feelings.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, that's, that's, what's on the record when he denies it, he gives his feelings and his reasons for showing his feelings or his thoughts, thoughts, feelings.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. I find it interesting that you think it's the Governor's feelings rather than it's something about you.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, he has feelings about me that he expresses.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right. So, tell me about those feelings that you think he has.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I can only tell you the ones he says he has.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, and in the last, the last denial, he said, um, uh, what about, why did I not have empathy?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: That was, that was the point.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: And why did I, why did I remain loyal with Manson after I knew the crimes he committed?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Those were the big ones I, you know, that I, that I really focused on.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Um, and do you think, so you think those are just his feelings. You don't think that that's like concerns that he has about your potential risk to the public?

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely. That's why he feels that way. He made that decision.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I believe he was honest when he says that. I believe he really, he really has adopted that or has that feeling, uh, his, his what, you know, uh, he he's been, he's been advised, and he accepts what he's been told. And—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Who, who do you think he's been advised by?

INMATE DAVIS: From what I understand, he has a, a group of people who review all the case, all these cases that he reviews. Uh, is that, you know, is, is that right?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: I, I, I'm not, I'm not the one answering questions today, but I, if you've heard that, then I'm sure that could be true.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it could be true. Okay. So, they gave him, they gave him what they, what they conclude, and he looks at it and he agrees, and he sees things and he agrees with their assessment.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, do you think that the lack of empathy is something that could cause a person to still be dangerous?

INMATE DAVIS: I don't have a lack of empathy now. At the time, I did. Well, of course, when I committed my crime.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. So, but my question was, do you think that that is something that could make someone continue to be dangerous who's committed some pretty heinous crimes?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, if I, if I lacked empathy in the past?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: No, I, well, I did the, did the Governor say that you lacked empathy in the past or currently?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I'm not sure exactly how he'd been it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, let me ask you a question. What you think. You're an intelligent guy. You've got a PhD. I mean, do you think empathy is an important characteristic or, or potentially relevant to dangerousness?

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, if I don't care what other people think or feel then they don't have a, they don't have any influence in what I do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Wait. If you don't, if you, well, I'm actually against speaking, sort of just generally about empathy.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, do you think empathy is an important and relevant consideration in determining if somebody would be a danger?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, it is.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why?

INMATE DAVIS: Because if the person doesn't care what other people think or feel then those people have no influence on his behavior.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right. I got you. Okay. Um, and you mentioned the other, uh, issue was, you know, why did you stay with Manson? Right? So, kind of like, why, why stay connected to somebody that you knew was dangerous? Do you think that's relevant to determining your potential risk?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. That was something that happened. I'm no longer a loyal to Manson, but I was at the time. Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, do you think you're suitable for parole?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why?

INMATE DAVIS: I'm not the same person I was when I came in. I've done everything I could to try to rehabilitate. I'm a changed person. Uh, I'm a, I'm safe in society.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, I, I'm sure you know, the status of others from the Manson family, other people who've been in prison. Um, many of them are still in prison. Right? Do you think you deserve to be out more than they do?

INMATE DAVIS: I don't deserve anything. I'm asking for mercy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And you think you should get mercy?

INMATE DAVIS: No. Mercy is, uh, it's on the side or the person that gives it. I have no, I have no demand.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. I wanna, um, switch gears a little bit. Um, I, as I said, we're not going to talk about everything, but there are a couple of things that sort of, that just raise questions for me that will help me kind of understand where you were at the time of this crime, the crimes. Um, and sort of related to the Governor's concerns about, you know, why you stuck with Manson. And I guess I'm wondering, um, what your understanding of a cult is.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, a cult is, uh, it's a group of people headed by one person who everybody else really looks up to, obeys, uh, lifts him, lifts him above normal, the normal group as a quality of person. Um, they see him as above them and a person to be respected, obeyed, et cetera. They take, they take his opinions as truth.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And how, how does that start?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, ma’am, we've had cults all through history. So, are you talking about my particular involvement?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, I mean, I guess I'm asking in part, you know, you, you've studied religion a lot. I would assume there's some sort of connection, not connection. Um, I'm not sure what the word I want to use for that, but like, you know, religions also have put, put a, uh, a being, a, a spiritual, you know, figure above all else—

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: —and people follow that.

INMATE DAVIS: Mm-hm.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, I guess I'm wondering in your mind, and this is related in part to your involvement with this cult, but like, what is it that, that ends up putting that person up on the pedestal so that people follow? And, and so if you want to tie it to your involvement with Manson, yes.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: That's, that obviously gives it some context, but I just to, I'm sort of thinking out, speaking out loud in a way, just to help you understand what I'm looking for here.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, uh, at about, in about 1955, this won't be long. Uh, in about 1955, I was about 13. Uh, I was, uh, with a disagreement with my dad or he was in a disagreement with me, and I was, I decided I didn't care about what he said in that moment. I don't care what you say or do. I'll never feel it again. And so, I turned off, I thought I was turning him off, but really, I was just turning myself off to feelings. I withdrew my loyalty from him. Okay. So, the rest of my life, I was always looking for a father figure from one place or another. So, when I met Manson, uh, he filled in and I didn't know what I was looking for. I felt it, but I didn't know. I couldn't tell you what I'm looking for at the time. But, uh, uh, he, he, he filled the places that, that I think a father should feel with their children. In other words, uh, gave me an acknowledgement, approval, uh, what I took for affinity, uh, respect and, and, and that filled a need that I had, uh, it was unspoken for myself. I didn't understand it, but it filled that. And, uh, I, I was drawn to that. Uh, he had, uh, he had, the power he had, the influence he had with the girls and the people around him. I saw that. I saw that influence and I was attracted to that. I saw that. I was helpless in my, I couldn't admit I was helpless, but I was in my head. Uh, I, I could work and have a job and everything, but when it came down to, I felt less than. I didn't understand why, but I did. But when I, when I would, once I, when I met Manson, he made me feel okay. He listened to me. He, he, uh, he, he seemed to value my (Inaudible). He seemed to like me for just who I was without regard to what I could do. Uh, and that, that, that made me feel like myself, you know, to be, uh, to be, it’s to be perceived. And—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. So, so you mentioned you withdrew loyalty from your father—

INMATE DAVIS: Mm-hm.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: —in 1955.

INMATE DAVIS: That’s right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, you were, what did you say? 13, 14?

INMATE DAVIS: 13.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, what was that about?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, we were, he was, he was angry at me for I don't know what. I don't even remember what it was about, but we were in the kind of a conflict that used, that sometimes ended in pain for me. And I made this choice not to feel the pain as kind of a reflex, kind of a defensive pushed back against what I was feeling. I, you know, I, so I didn't want to feel his rejection. I didn't want to feel, hear his cursing. I didn't want to feel the physical pain. And so, my very foolish strategy was to quit feeling. I didn't have anything else—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Pretty understandable strategy. So then when you, I mean, but that, so then it was like still, when was it? 1967 when you first met Manson?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So that's, see if my mouth is right, 12 years later?

INMATE DAVIS: Long time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Did you ever, yeah. Did you ever like meet other people who, who, you know, other men or other people who kind of accepted you for who you were and made you feel okay?

INMATE DAVIS: You know, uh, a few years after I met my dad, uh, after this happened with my dad, I trusted a guy who was older than me and I was, got molested by him. And, uh, that was, uh, that was, uh, a shocking situation that I never could talk about at a fellow sharing. And then, uh, then the same thing happened again with a schoolteacher when was about eighth grade. And those things kind of made me distrustful and, you know, uh, wary, um, uh, and, and from the, you know, after, after that, I really couldn't, I couldn't listen to older, to people that were older than I was, or who were, might've been authority figures. I just had this rebellion against the whole thing. And, uh—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, the teachers, and then you went to college for a while, right? In Tennessee, I think?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Did you like any professors or any, you know, friends in college, still none, no one who had that kind of connection that you felt with Manson?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I have not. Professors in school were good. I mean, I didn't have that kind of relationship with them because they were just here to help me. They weren't being authoritative or making demands other than what the school required. So, I didn't, I never put that together with them.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Right. Do you think when you met Manson you knew that he was, you know, sort of trying, I mean, I, I assume from what I've read, you know, he was, he was trying to get this group of, of followers, right? Like, did you know that? Or was it, and that, was that something that drew you or was it more just him, him, his personality, and the way he treated you?

INMATE DAVIS: It was mostly personal. Uh, when we met, uh, there wasn't anything going on with (Inaudible) raising like that. It was just playing music. All the girls were there, there was, there was drugs, sex, drugs, and rock and roll. And that's what I was, that's what the things that I am taken to medicate myself with. Those kinds of things.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yeah.

INMATE DAVIS: And so—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, so when do you think you first realized that this is whoa, this guy is kind of, this is a, this is a cult I'm, I'm part of now?

INMATE DAVIS: I never thought about that until, until 1974. I mean, I've heard people, I'd heard people, I'd read the paper. I read the book. Oh, this was a cult. I said, okay. Well, it doesn't mean anything because it didn't have, I hadn't woken up to what it was about, I mean, on a big level. I was just disappointed with the results I got.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, you, and you mentioned sort of a definition of cult. When, how did you learn that? When did you start learning about what a cult was?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, when I, when I got into reading theology and apologetics and things and it talked about what are cults and it said, okay. A cult has a, has this leader who is very charismatic, influential, very much, very much. Uh, they all have a special book, and they have a special interpretation and a, and they have the profit, they have the special profit and all the ones I named, all, all the, all the American homegrown cults all have that. And they all lined up. Uh, Manson wasn't teaching anything religious, but those, those little categories sort of fit. I mean—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yeah.

INMATE DAVIS: I could say, yeah, I can understand the, him being, the family being classified as a cult. I can understand that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Is it surprising to you that, that you fell into that?

INMATE DAVIS: No, it was not surprising. I was, I was, I was like open for that. I was, I was like a fish looking for, for a worm. Uh, when, when, when I'm, when I'm at Manson and I saw this, I was just hungry for it. I said, I saw the girls, I saw the drugs and I said, man, I want a piece of this. And I, that was what I was looking for. Right. And so, when I saw it, I, I bought, I said, this is it. I liked it. So, I, so, so Manson asked me, he said, come on and stay with us. That wasn't, that was easy to accept.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, one of the issues that this, you know, this Governor had in the latest, um, decision, as well as, you know, previous Governor reversals is about just, you know, do you understand why and how you got involved?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, and, and why you did what you did, you know?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Well, I understand.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, so one of the things, I think it was in the last hearing, um, you said that you were just holed up and that's when, like an answer to why you, why you got involved. You said you were holed up.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. You know, I think I—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And I, and I think the Governor cited to that too, as I recall, but what does that—

INMATE DAVIS: I remember, I remember that I couldn't, I don't remember saying that. I don’t, what does that mean? I don't know what that meant. When I read that, I said, where did he get this? Holed up? What does that mean? It doesn't mean, that doesn't sound like anything I've ever said that I can remember.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right.

INMATE DAVIS: I don't, uh…

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, let me see if I, I, I can quote it.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay. Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Let’s just see.

INMATE DAVIS: Is it, is it…

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Here's the question. And this is 24 in the transcript from 2021. The question was, so what were some of your character flaws that attracted to you, attracted you to a man like this? And your answer was, well, I was uncertain of myself. I was, I was impulsive. I was immature. I was alone. I felt lonely. I was hungry for excitement. I had a lust for women and drugs. So, when all those things appeared available, I was just, I was, oh, holed in. I was just, I was holed in.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I'll say this. I was attracted. I don't remember ever using the term holed in. I don't know, I don't know how I got it, but I was attracted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: It’s in your transcription here. I don't know. That's why I wanted to ask you about it.

INMATE DAVIS: It was like magnetic. Right? I was attracted like a magnet. It was not a thoughtful reaction on my part.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, so the, so you were attracted to Manson and his affection or—

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Commissioner, Deputy Commissioner is not on screen right now.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: What's that?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Deputy Commissioner is not on my screen. Just wonder whether she's…

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: She’s on my screen.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: I'm here.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Okay. All right.

INMATE DAVIS: She's on mine.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yeah. I, I think if, as long as Mr. Davis can see her, then I think we're, we're okay with that. Um…

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, so you wanted, you know, drugs and girls, Manson's approval. Um, let me ask about the drugs and girls part cause that seems to be a theme of, one of the things you, you know, mentioned is why you got involved with this. Um, what was it about, you know, the, the ranch, the family, the, you know, drugs and girls there that was, you know, so desirable to you over finding drugs and girls somewhere else? You were in college for, you were in college for a while. I would assume it was probably pretty available there too. So, what was it about this?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, now that the early sixties in Tennessee, there wasn't much drugs. Now, there were so, but it wasn't, it wasn't like it is now. It was another world as you probably, you may. No. Here, here's why, here's why here's what attracted me. There was so much on it. So easy. It was right there. It didn't take any effort on my part. So, I didn't have to work for it. I didn't have to, I didn't have to do anything for it. It seemed like it was just free right there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I was like a really hungry person who somebody offered a meal, just said, hey, do you want this?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why were you so hungry? Looking back, why were you so needing that?

INMATE DAVIS: Because I was empty inside. I was just—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Because of your father?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, that was part of it and my decisions later on. Uh, I had no, when I lost empathy for my father, when I quit caring about what he thought and I, and I said, I'll never feel that again, I actually turned the empathy off in me. I'm the one that got, I thought I was just, uh, isolating one person away from me. I didn't realize I was just turning me off. So that left me just, you know, isolated in myself. And so, my, my, my need for affection and medication that I had started, I started medicating myself really early in life with food when I was about five or six, because of the way, the way the family went. And that would make me feel good. Of course, that has its bad side too if you go too far. Then later on, I medicated myself with, with masturbation when I was 12 or 13. Right. So that was a, that was a medication. That gave me some, some kind of relief, put me in a different place. Then, then it put me in a different place. I wanted to, place I'd rather be around my father. So those were ways of escape. Then, then the first time I took marijuana, oh, that made me feel in a different place. And I, and there was times in, uh, pretty early on, at about ‘65, this was later, uh, I was standing in a circle of guys and, uh, smoking hash. And I remember saying, man, now this is how life ought to be. And so, I, because I was feeling, I wasn't in, I wasn't in, um, any kind of, any kind of negative stuff, because it was the drugs and race, all that stuff so that just wasn't real at all. So, and, and that's when I really started liking, uh, psychedelic drugs. And, uh, they feel, they, they feel, they feel the need. I didn't realize what needs they were feeling, but I know it certainly made me feel good. I just didn’t took—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And that was after you joined Manson?

INMATE DAVIS: No this was—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: This was when you were doing LSD or before?

INMATE DAVIS: No, this, this, that started about 1965.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, you met Manson in ‘67 and then you went to Europe, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. And what were you doing over there?

INMATE DAVIS: Traveling route. Uh, I was with few other people. We were just going to the sightseeing, going one place to another. And, um, well, I was, we were always, I was always centered about getting to North Africa where the, where there was a lot of drugs in Tangiers.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And I think I read somewhere you were involved with the, or what, something about the Scientology church. Were you a member of that?

INMATE DAVIS: Not really. I worked for them for a while. I got there, I got introduced into a, uh, like a, an introduction, uh, uh, lecture and, uh, the ladies that invited me to it were very hospitable. I stayed with them. I really enjoyed their hospitality. The, uh, the philosophy and the different things that L. Ron Hubbard had put out, it was, uh, didn't make much sense, but I was having a good time there so I stayed for, I stayed for a few months. I just—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, you were kind of smiling when you were talking about the women and their hospitality. Was that a sexual thing that you were being—

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, it was. Yes, it was.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Is that what made you kind of smile about it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it felt good at the time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And Scientology sort of, I mean, arguably a cult as well. Right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, was there any, you know, did you get at all the same feeling of being, you know, with, with that belief system?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I, I, I never, I, I, (Inaudible), when I asked, when I started seeing what they were saying, and then I knew that, I knew that was a fantasy. I mean, when you talked about people being a million-year-old person and having all these past lives and, and, and all the, all the parts of that hovered that made up, I, I knew that, that was just not real to me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So let me ask you this. When you described in one hearing, you called Manson's beliefs about like, starting this race war and some of the things he wanted to do and what he thought about the world, were, were silly.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, which I, I mean, maybe it wasn't the greatest use of that, I mean, description, but, but like, why do you think you noticed that Scientology was kind of crazy with that? It was believing, but you didn't notice what Manson, you know, was professing and, and putting out there was also a bit crazy.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I, wasn't having fun with psychology, with Scientology as a thing, you know—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Except for the women?

INMATE DAVIS: Except for the women. And, uh, but when it came, when it came to the, to Manson and the family, that was all combined into a lot of it, I never, I never felt any loyalty to anything about Scientology. Nothing. It just happened to be that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, it’s not the belief system. It was the personality?

INMATE DAVIS: It was, it was, it was a few, a few ladies involved in the, in the organization.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: It wasn't, it wasn't anything about the philosophy of it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Well, so, but again, why could you see that, that philosophy was, you know, you recognized that, you had sort of the side benefits of women like you did with the ranch and Manson, but why did you recognize that that was so wrong when you didn't seem to recognize what Manson was trying to do was so wrong?

INMATE DAVIS: I, this was, it didn't fit. They were the same kind of things in my head. Like, uh, this was, uh, the, the, the Scientology was a worldwide organization, a big corporation, had all kinds of, of, of organizational rules and things you could and things you couldn't. And I wasn't under that, but I knew about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right. So, but then let me, let me take Scientology out of it. Why didn't you know that what Manson was doing and what would he wanted to do in the world and the way he wanted to do it, why didn't you know, that that was wrong?

INMATE DAVIS: Ma'am, I didn't care. I had given my loyalty to Manson. I didn't care what he did as long as I felt his approval, as long as I had access, as long as I was as good with the girls, as long as we had drugs, I didn't care what they did. I just did not care.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why not? How can you not?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I told you, well, okay. I had no empathy. I had no empathy. I had no internal boundaries. I had no empathy. When I look back at, I, it's a shocking, shameful thing and then man, I, I, I could hardly believe that that's how I felt, but I look back, I know that's how I felt. That changed. But as, until it changed, I didn't care. I didn't, I didn't care of what they did. I had no, didn't make any difference to me. I had, I have, well, here's one thing. I had convinced myself that if I didn't strike the death blow, that I wasn't guilty. If I didn’t, if I, if I wasn't there to make the drug deal, for instance, I wasn't guilty. If I wasn't, I had deceived myself. That's all. But it was, it was easy to take because the payoff was, I could stay with the family. I felt okay. I could have what I wanted. That's all I wanted and what everybody else did and that's what they did. And, uh, I didn't care much about myself really. As I looked back, I didn't care much about anything. I just wanted what I wanted. And, uh—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And what you wanted was drugs, women, and Manson's approval.

INMATE DAVIS: That's it. You know, I've, I've, I've looked at it. I thought, what, what were, what was I looking for? And that's what it always boiled down to every time. And, uh, it was, uh, you know, I can't, I, well, I shouldn't say I can't believe it, I can believe it cause I did it, but I didn't care what other people did. As long as I got what I wanted, the whole place could perish.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And the, the, the reason you got to the point of having no empathy and didn't care about anybody or yourself or anything is again, remind me, it's because of your father?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not because of him. It’s because of the decisions I made about how I felt about his behavior. It wasn't his fault. I'm the one that made the decision. I remember when it happened, I was looking at him and, in my head, it goes, click, I'm turning you off. Now, I just, it was in my head. He didn't, he never knew that, but in my head, that's what I did. I made that, that was my way of blocking the pain and rejection, the cursing, et cetera. And that's what I did. And I began to just not feel, and, and it didn't happen all at once, but it got to be a habit and a habit and a habit, and pretty soon it was just, uh, that's how I was. I became very set in that. I didn't realize, I didn't realize what I felt was happening. And if somebody had told me, you don't care about it, I said, oh no, I do. I care about this, blah, blah, blah. I could have made some kind of issues, but really, I didn’t care. I didn't care. And it was a, it was a terrible thing that I didn't realize what a bad decision it was till much later. But by the time I met Manson, it was set. And, and I was—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: It was set, meaning you were going to succumb this?

INMATE DAVIS: Zero empathy. Because whenever something would happen that was painful, I would, I would avoid it, deny it, get away from it. Uh, I would just put it out, put it out of reality in my head.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Could you empathize with Manson? Like if he was hurt or was he, if he wasn't getting what he wanted or had needs, would you empathize with him?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I did only to the point to, to stay in his good stead.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, you have the ability to care about what other, somebody thought or felt?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, because it was directly tied to what I wanted. It was tied to what I wanted. It was just, it was just a means to an end that I would behave as if I cared. But when it really came down, if, if, if, if he had said, okay, no more drugs and you can't have the girls, I think I would have just been gone. I would have just left.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, you were clearly capable of emotions, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You had emotions.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But you just didn't have the empathy emotion.

INMATE DAVIS: I did not care. Uh—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you think that helps you deal with what you did? To say, oh, I just didn't have empathy. I didn't care. I mean, does that make you feel better about what you did?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I know how, I know I didn't care. It doesn't make me feel better about it. It's terrible what I did. I make no excuse for that. I made the decisions to do it. I knew it was dangerous because, you know, when you do something that's just so, I knew what my boundaries was, the law. That was my, I wouldn't go into, I wouldn't, I didn't want to go past that boundary.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, you were doing drugs and I mean, what do you mean your boundary was the law?

INMATE DAVIS: Well—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You clearly were breaking the law.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, but I was getting away with it so easy it didn't really matter. I mean, the place was full of people—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, is your boundary the law or is your boundary getting caught?

INMATE DAVIS: Getting caught. Getting caught. That was the boundary. That's what I was—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You don’t know if you’re going to get caught until after you break that boundary.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. But once you don't, once you, once you break it and don't get caught just a little bit, it becomes a, it becomes, it becomes a habit. And you're, you're just thinking the chances are just going down, going down and, uh, it becomes, it becomes part of normal. And, uh, you know, I, I, I have no excuse for it. It was, I knew, I knew it was illegal. I knew it was illegal. But the chances of, no, nobody in the groups I was in ever got, ever got in prison or jail for drugs. They’ve already got (Inaudible), but it sure wasn't drugs. Now I know people that, that, that it had aggravated their cases and, and was involved. But, uh, well, you know, I wasn't looking that far. I wasn't taking, I wasn't taking a lot of notice about it, just the parts I wanted to see. That's what I saw. I basically saw what I wanted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, your mindset was pretty convenient for you to be involved with this type of thing.

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely. I was looking for the path of least resistance and looking for convenience. I was not motivated to, uh, to work hard. I was motivated to do enough when, when I was out, when I was making a living in the construction and the welding trades, I was motivated enough to, to make a living. But, uh, I was not trying to get ahead or start a business or anything like that. I was just trying to get along. And I had no, I had no vision of the future. My life was, was, was mixed up with what I'm doing right now. I never, I never had a thought about what would happen next week, next month.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So you were, um, like 27, right? When you got involved? Or 25, originally. You were 27 at the time of the crimes.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You're not a young teenager going through that angsty like I don't know what I want to do with my life and I'm going to just be reckless and, you know, take what comes to me. Right? So, and I think I read somewhere, you described yourself as you were emotionally an adolescent. Why at 25, 27, were you emotionally an adolescent?

INMATE DAVIS: I never grew up

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Because of your dad and shutting him off when you were 13?

INMATE DAVIS: It wasn't my dad's fault.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: I didn't, I’m not saying that. I'm just like, I—

INMATE DAVIS: That’s where, yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And you were 27 years old. How are you not grown up yet?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was grown up physically and intellectually I was grown up, but emotionally, no.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why? Tell me why. You're not like, it just, it doesn't make sense why an intelligent, you know, 27-year-old man who has, you know, how to decent life and done things and educated. Like, why are you still an adolescent?

INMATE DAVIS: I had no judgment.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Why? All right. So, you have no judgment. Tell me why you had no judgment.

INMATE DAVIS: I wasn't, I had never come to, I never came to it. The judgment about—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why? Just know my next question is going to be why? I want more.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay. Okay. It was never explained to me, it was never taught me, uh, I had no exposure to how to have, uh, uh, to be emotionally, you know, grown up. I was stuck at that point. I think I, I kind of got stuck at the point where I decided I didn't care. That, that was a, a big, uh, I was stuck there. And then a few other things had happened, when I got molested that stuck me there at that point. And, and I just, I just didn't go on. I just never, I don't know why. I don't, I don't know how that, I don't know why. I don't know the mechanics of how that happened. I just know that these are the things that happened. I know that. And then, and then that's the things I did later on, that was the frame of mind I was in. I never rejected. I don't suppose I don't remember ever having actually rejected, uh, grow, at being emotionally grown. I never, it never occurred to me to think about it like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, you were never around people who demonstrated judgment, you knew right from wrong, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, I had a conscience. Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right. But you were emotionally an adolescent?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, when I look at it and see the appetites I had and the way I went about doing it, I should say it looked like an adolescent to me. You know, that's what a kid would do. He couldn't, he couldn't stand—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But you’re a 27-year-old man.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Commissioner, this is, this is beginning to feel like harassment. Um, I don't know why it's so difficult to understand a 27-year-old who's an emotional, uh, juvenile that's happens all the time and he's—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Mr. Beckman, I want to determine his suitability for parole. I don't, I don't want your, your opinion on that. I think it's more helpful if I can just try to, this is obviously an issue for the Governors. I'm giving him a chance to explain it in a way that could satisfy the Governor. If we grant parole, then, you know, but this has been an ongoing issue. And so, if you don't want me to explore it and let him make a record, then that's the choice that you're making.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: (Inaudible) and stop attacking because that's what it seems like to me.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well—

INMATE DAVIS: Let me say something.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: I think we’re doing fine.

INMATE DAVIS: I do too.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Mr. Davis, thanks for doing fine. Go ahead, Mr. Davis.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, we know this, uh, the first sexual experience a person has, it, it changes his viewpoint. It changes him, right? And, and, and he, there's a certain place that he, he's, he that's where he's at. And, and if, and if it's in a, if it's in a negative thing, it’s a negative experience, it's going to, it's going to put him in a certain place and, and it's going to take something bigger than he is to ever change that. The first time a person takes drugs, and it changes and does, and he takes drugs in order to change his thinking not because he's in pain or something like that, but he takes it for himself inside, that locks it into something. It's the first experience. The first time a person, uh, first, the first time a person actually falls in love and maybe gets jilted, which happen that puts him somewhere. It stops his growth at a certain place.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: I think that's, I mean, I, that's insightful. I understand what you're saying. I guess the question is, I mean, you had moved, there had been so many years in between these things that you say sort of stopped you, that you were functioning, you were in relationships, you did understand right from wrong. You had all of those things going. And yet at 27, you're saying, I didn't care. I, you know, I mean, so do you understand that there's sort of a disconnect there?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I can see how you might say that, but I didn't care all the way up through that. I didn't ever start caring again. From the time that I said, uh, I don't, I will never feel pain again from my father. That's when I turned myself off. I never started again, not till 1974, but different all the time. It was massive. I didn't feel it. And I, I didn't feel any, uh, regard for other people other than doing what it took to get what I wanted. Now, that's, that, that was where I was at. I just didn't care.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Let me ask a couple of, um, questions about other issues the Governor had. Um, you mentioned earlier about you, well, I guess you said empathy and why did you stay with Manson? The other issue that did come up was then this has been a theme in some other hearings and other Governor decisions is your, uh, minimization of your role in the crimes. So, I want to go through that again. I'm trying to give you a chance to clarify the things that have been previously criticized about, you know, and, and concerns that people have raised about your suitability for parole. So, um, there were a couple of things about, uh, Mr. Hinman's murder that came through in, in your comments and others, that, that there is a theme that you present a little bit of like, I wasn't the bad guy. Right? I didn't touch him. I was a bystander. I wasn't, you know, as responsible. So, what, what do you say to that?

INMATE DAVIS: Okay. Uh, when I first got found suitable in 2010, I wrote a long paper and I talked about my role and responsibility in the crime and the Commissioner read it and he read it into the record. He says, this is because he knew I was going to take (Inaudible) on that. That's the first time I got found suitable. So, here's what I said. I apologize to the Board for minimizing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Hang on. Can you hear me?

INMATE DAVIS: Say it again.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Hang on. Hang on. I, you're freezing on my end. Can you all see me?

INMATE DAVIS: I can.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Yes. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Did I, did Mr. Davis freeze for other people or was that just on my end?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: I didn't see him freeze on my end. Mr. Davis, can you see and hear Commissioner Garland and myself?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. That was weird. I, I lost a little bit of that, uh, what you were saying, Mr. Davis. You talked about an insight or a description of your crime that you gave to the Board before.

INMATE DAVIS: That’s right. And I said, I, I apologize for, for not taking responsibility for playing it off like it wasn't that serious, of all the minimizing. I, I realized I've been doing that and I'm sorry I wasted your time. And I said, I had to seed myself into thinking that if I didn't commit the death act, that I would be okay. That's what I, that's what I had, I had put up in my head and I started to say, nah, that sounds right. And so, I just began to believe that. So, here's what happened. I drove, uh, Bobby Beausoleil and Mary and, uh, Sadie and, uh, Ella to Gary's house. I let them out and drove away. A couple of days later, uh, Bobby tells the ranch, says Gary's not cooperating. So, Manson and I went back to Gary's house. Uh, Gary and Bobby had had a fight over the pistol, a pistol that I gave Gary. I mean that I gave Bobby, stupid me. Uh, so I got the pistol back and I had it in my hand. And Charlie was confronting Gary about where's the money. And Gary said, I don't have any. I had it right in my hand. And I wasn't pointing it like I was getting ready to shoot, but I had it in my hand. It was, it was pointed toward him. And if I'd have been him, I would have felt like somebody was pointing a gun at me. Right. So, I was right there when Manson cut him on the face and that's, that was a shock to me. I'd never seen bloodshed in anger, especially with a weapon. I seen a bloody nose, but not like this. And I got out, I said, I'm going. So, I walked out. But I was there. I meant to be there. Uh, I was a willing participant. I was as guilty as anybody there. Uh, and whatever I've ever said that made me less guilty was just, I want to take all that, but I was stupid because it wasn't true, but I convinced myself—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, okay. All right. I appreciate that. But, you know, guilt is different than, you know, I mean, guilt is more of a legal term, right? You, you were guilty of doing something, but as far as your participation in it, it seems like it has been important to you to make it clear that you didn't, you know, you didn't touch Mr. Hinman. You didn't, you know, you didn't do any of the things that caused his death, I guess, would be a way of characterizing it. Is that important to you that that's, that, that that's now?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, not, no. Not now. Look, I was a part of, of a bunch of people that took Gary’s life. I took his life just as much as everybody else. I didn't do anything to stop it. I didn't tell him to quit. I didn't call law enforcement. I didn't do anything. I held my hand up in a sense. My silence is acquiescence. Right. I, I, I didn't say to stop. I didn't care what, what happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, according to the Governor, you know, it says, you know, petitioner, or, you know, you were part of the plan to use force.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: To get money from Hinman.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You drove Manson where Hinman was held captive.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You pointed a gun at him so he wouldn't resist while Manson sliced his face with a sword. And then you left Hinman knowing that he was his death was imminent. I mean, is that accurate?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I didn't, I knew his death was possible cause they had, there was deadly force, there, there was, I didn't know that he was going to die.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Did you know the plan though was, you know, to get money from him and so—

INMATE DAVIS: That’s right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: —and they were, you know, here at this point we have this sword cutting his face and his ear off. Right?

INMATE DAVIS: Right. Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So probably not going to be a good outcome.

INMATE DAVIS: It already wasn’t a good outcome. I knew that. I just wanted some distance from all this bad outcome. I, I knew Gary was in bad jeopardy. I knew that. I mean, it was easy to see. I just didn't want, I wouldn't allow myself to believe at that time. I, I shouldn't say one out loud, but I didn't think, I just wasn't thinking. I just wanted to get distance from this. I, if, if I had a thought for one second, I knew that Gary was in serious trouble. I would, I would know. I knew that when we drove over.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Right.

INMATE DAVIS: That it was going, that it was going to be something.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Was that the first time you realized that this, this involvement with Manson and followers was violent?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Could be potentially violent?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Were there talks about violence or the race war or anything like that before that?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, probably some, but the rifle apart, that was fantasy, I thought. I got so far away that didn't have anything to do with me. I never—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, once you learned about Gary Hinman dying and the, and the comments written in blood and all that, I mean, did you know this was legit that's what they were going to do?

INMATE DAVIS: I knew that's what they did. I didn't know they was going to do all of the, all of the, everything that happened. I didn't know that was part of it. I knew that they were going to get Gary’s money, or they were going to, or Gary is going to die. I knew that from the beginning.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, you, you said you wanted to get out of there. Right? So that was what? July? And then in, so you then wanted to get out of there. You wanted to get out of him in his house, but you didn't necessarily want to get out of the family.

INMATE DAVIS: No. Just away from the crime scene. That's all.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But then you kind of got a sense of what Manson was capable of, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yeah, I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And that didn’t dissuade you from being involved?

INMATE DAVIS: Obviously not. No, ma'am. Uh, I had given my loyalty to Manson and so whatever he did, as long as I had access to what I wanted, I didn't care what he did. Because I didn't care. And, and as I look at it—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But then again, that's inconsistent. You clearly cared about a lot of things.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I cared about myself. That's what I cared about. That was what I cared about. And that's not that, that was the big thing I cared about. I was the most important person in my life. In fact, I was the only real person in my life in a way because I cared about myself. I cared about what I wanted. I didn't really care about what was, you know, uh, ultimately good or bad. I just cared about what I wanted. So, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't care. I was just, I was just cold and indifferent. And, uh, it's, uh, um, it's just, it's a sad and sorrowful thing, terrible things that I did, but that's how I felt.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Mr. Davis, I'm going to pause you for a minute here. Ms. Martley, I, I see, you wanted to say something. Do you want to take a break? You're on mute. And can you hear me, Ms. Martley? You're on mute. There you go. You're not, you're not on mute right now.

VNOK MARTLEY: Okay. Sorry. Okay. No, I clicked trying to put the photo on. Ignore me. I'm sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Oh, okay. I saw the hand raised. All right.

VNOK MARTLEY: I know. I don’t know how I did that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. That's okay.

VNOK MARTLEY: Sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, all right, so, so Mr. Davis, we've talked about him and then, you know, you've left that. Um, but obviously that didn't dissuade you from participating in the next well, in the, in the murder of, of Shorty Shea, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, a couple of questions I have about comments that you made about that. I understand, um, you know, what your testimony has been about your role in that. Um, you made a comment at the hearing last time that you, when Manson said, why don't you cut his head off? Right? I mean, I think he gave you a machete or something and said, cut his head off. Is that right?

INMATE DAVIS: That’s right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. And you said that you found then that there was a limit to what you would do. And what did, what did you mean by that?

INMATE DAVIS: I found out that there was some things I couldn't do. I was not going to cut the man's head off with a, with a machete.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Why not? Why when you know he's going to die when you know, or he has died, like, what was it about that that was too much for you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, at the time, I didn't think about what it was about. I just knew I wasn't going to do it. I didn't think, oh, this is too bad, that's too bad. I wasn't thinking about it. I just knew I wasn't going to. I said, no, I dropped the machete. But then yet Manson handed me a knife and said do something, and that's when I cut Mr. Shea. So, there was, uh, there was, uh, some, there was a difference about beheading him and cutting it. I mean…

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Looking back, is that, does that seem rational? Like there's something that would, is it just the, the, goriness, the, I mean, what, what would it be about, I mean, if he's already—

INMATE DAVIS: Well—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: —dead or about to die, why does it matter?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I guess the goriness was part because when I was, when I saw Mr. Hinman’s blood, that, that, that made me want to leave right there. Now, by the time that Mr. Shea was stabbed several times, there was plenty of blood. Uh, I was in, I believe I was in some kind of state of shock, not, not enough to change what I did, but just, you know, that I couldn't, I would not really cut off his head. Now if I, if I went, if I thought about it and got really analytical, I might say, well, cutting off his head would surely kill him but if I cut him, it really wouldn't, it might not kill him. I mean, but that's way after this, the situation, I wasn’t thinking anything like that. I might have been feeling something that led me to not do one thing to do the other, but it wasn't, it wasn't thought out. There wasn't anything to it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Does that go back to your thinking like about, you know, your limit was the law? Like you thought maybe you wouldn't get, you know, I mean, you had a limit that you mentioned earlier, like, you know, as long as they didn't get caught and that the law was your limit, but then like maybe, I mean, at this point, you were clearly breaking the law and involved in a pretty big break of the law.

INMATE DAVIS: No, I knew—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But you didn't feel like you needed to go to that next level.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I don't know what I'm, I don't know why I said no, I just don't know. I just said, I just knew it was no, I mean, if somebody just said, no, I didn't do it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Were there any repercussions that you wouldn't do it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I understood there could be because several people had already stabbed him. And so, I'm standing there. Here's two or three guys with bloody knives and their blood is up. And, uh, I was not going to, I was not going to say no. I thought, I knew that'd be dangerous for me. Uh, kind of an aside to that, I found out later that Manson set it up just for me, because I was the only person in that group who hadn't been involved in something. That was—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you feel like he was testing you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, he wanted, the quote I heard, I want to make sure Bruce's hands get wet.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: When did you hear that?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, years later. Years later. But, uh, I didn't understand it. I didn't think about it at the time. But, uh…

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: What do you think about that now?

INMATE DAVIS: About, about what?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: About the fact that Manson said that.

INMATE DAVIS: Very disappointed, terrible.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why?

INMATE DAVIS: I mean, that it is. I mean, to think that, to take that his thinking he just wanted to get me involved so I would, I would feel I'd be in trapped with the law, like everybody else, and that I wouldn't be a threat to testify against them. I think that's part of the sinking.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, he was calculating that. All right. If, if Davis does this, then, you know, he's in with us. He can't, he can't kind of proclaim his innocence or, you know—

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, you know, it's really hard to figure out what a person person's actually thinking, but that goes with, that makes sense. That makes sense to me. After thinking about it a long time, uh, uh, to think about all that, it's really sad. And, uh, it was a long, I tell you, it was a long time before I recognized what I’ve done, uh, the pain I caused and all that. It was probably five or six years later before it ever came to me, before I ever felt anything. And, uh, when it started, it started. And when I started getting in touch with, uh, with what I caused and, uh, the pain I caused a lot of people and I, and I realized that I'm, in a big way, I'm responsible for all the victims that Manson that I never said, no, I, I approved by my presence. I was an influencer. I was one of the older people. I was in, I was somehow influential with the younger people just by reference, you know, younger people gonna respect older people.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Right. And, and which is something I wanted to ask you about. I mean, so I've read a different couple of things about like, whether or not you were the second in command to Manson. Would you have considered yourself that or, and, or let me just ask that. Did you consider yourself a second in command?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I wanted to be, no. Not at all. Not at all.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Did you want to be?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But you were pretty, you know, pretty fixated on Manson, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, yeah. I wanted to be Charlie's favorite guy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. But not second in command, not a leader?

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't want to be the, no, I didn't want to be the guy who chaired the functionary. I didn't want to do that. I just wanted to, I just wanted to be his favorite. That's all I want.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And that's different than the second in command?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the second in command is a person who actually does it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. And who would you say was the second in command? Watson?

INMATE DAVIS: I'd say Watson was there. Um, uh, Lynn Fromme to some degree, uh, with George Bond. I mean, she had a lot to do with, she, I don't think she influenced Charlie's decisions, but, but she cares, you know, she, she was right there and, uh, she wasn't in any of the cases, but, uh, but she, she had a lot of influence in, in the family.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, I read, um, something that the trial court said about you. Um, and it's this sort of, again, dealing with this idea that you weren't as maybe culpable or involved as some others. So, it said, Davis is older than most of the, and this is a quote, “most of the youngsters who were around Charles Manson, more capable than many who were with Manson and shouldn't be treated as somebody who was just led along by the nose and at the whim and command of Charles Manson. He's a man capable of going on his own path and he deliberately chose to engage in these murders.” Do you agree with that?

INMATE DAVIS: Partly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: What part do you agree, what don't you agree with?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I don't agree that I was a victim. I don't believe I was sucked in. I knew when I agreed, I wanted Manson's approval, whatever that took, I was willing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. But what about the fact that you, you know, like the idea that you kind of are being portrayed or want to be portrayed as someone who just went along, as it says, you know, was led along by the nose and at the whim and command of Manson. Like the judge is saying, no, you shouldn't be considered that way.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, he's right. Say that I was led along by that, that's an editorial comment or somewhat.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: There was an (Inaudible). It was, I think, at your sentencing or—

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, no. I remember the judge said. Uh, I remember what he said. He said, that's not, that's not what happened. And I wasn't led along by the nose. I jumped at it. I didn't have to be real then. I was like a fish trying to jump in the boat. Right. Uh, when, what? Two times Charlie asked for research match nationally something. And I said, no. One was cutting off, was cutting off my dog's head at the time. And I didn't know what this was about, but, um, one of the girls came to me the night before Tate-LaBianca said, hey, we're going out tonight and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're just going out and do something. And I didn't, nobody knew, I didn't know what. She didn't say. And out of my mouth before I thought about it, I said, I'm not going. And it was like, just came out. But as soon as I said, I knew I wasn't, I said, no, I'm not going. The next day, I was watching the moon landing and they broke the news, broke in and talked about what happened on Shallow Drive. And I was watching that. And then somebody walked in and said, oh, that was, that was, uh, that was Tex and Sadie and I know that, I said, wow. And then, but you know what, even then, I wasn't in that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You didn’t leave.

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am. I was not involved in that. I felt like I was scot-free from that. Uh—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And as long as you were scot-free, that was, that's all that mattered? In your mindset at the time.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am. I mean—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, it is, it's 10 o'clock. I'd like to take just about a five-to-10-minute break. Um, so let's, yeah, probably just a five-minute break. Anybody need longer than that? Okay. All right. So, it's 10 o'clock. Let's go off the record. We'll be back at 10:05.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: We are back on the record, Commissioner.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: It's 10:14 AM and all parties who were present before the break have returned. I'm going to turn this over to Commissioner Stern in just a minute, but I do have a couple of follow-up questions, Mr. Davis. Um, we talked a bit about, um, empathy. Uh, the Governor had that issue, the CRA also, uh, discussed that you have difficulty with empathy, um, which could like disinhibit your, uh, potential for violence or put, put you on that kind of violent path again. So, tell me just first what's, what's the definition of empathy?

INMATE DAVIS: To feel what others are feeling.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. When was the last time you felt empathy towards someone?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, uh, yesterday, a gentleman was, while I was watching him where he was going and he was carrying stuff in his hand and he hit a pipe that was in his path, but didn't even sit, knocked himself right out. Man, that hurt, that hurt just to see it. And, uh, he wasn't hurt. Well, he was, he was out for a few minutes. Well, a couple of minutes, I talked to him. Are you okay? Yeah, I just got to get up, but man, I could, I've hit my head before. I had some idea of what that must be like. I mean the shock knocked him and I've never knocked myself out, but I can only imagine waking up after that. Right? That's, that's tough. That's hard.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, what did you feel for him? Like what was the, the emotion that you experienced?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I felt, I felt, I felt a little fear because I didn't know what, what was going to happen. I didn't know how bad it was. So, the first thing I went, oh, it was kind of, kind of, you know, there was a fear factor, like an anxiety. And then when I started talking to him, I, I bumped my head before one time. And, and so I know what that feels like, you know? Uh, and so, so I asked him, I said, how you're feeling? Are you, are you dizzy? What's happening? Like that. And we talked just a second. No, I didn't have, just a couple of words, but, uh, I had had that happen and I was, I was hoping that he'd be okay. Cause you never know you hit your head like that, anything can happen. I mean, a lightweight blow could really do a lot of damage for it would to another person, another part of your head and other times. So, I was, anyway, I felt bad about that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: What do you think he was feeling?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, um, I guess the short answer, when he woke up, he was probably, uh, he was probably disoriented. Uh, he probably, uh, probably took him a couple of seconds to snap what happened. Uh, uh, he obviously didn't see the thing that hit him. So, so for a minute, for a minute, he was, he was, he was disoriented and then he, a couple people were talking to him, so I got him kind of into time and place. And then there was probably more than likely some pain. Uh, although, you know, when you get, when something happens like that, you usually don't, you don't feel a lot of the pain right then, uh, you know, you get a lot of adrenaline kicks in, but he was, uh, he was, he was somewhat alarmed. Uh, how that could happen, what's going to happen. I guess he probably didn't, you know, he probably had a lot of questions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Yeah. So, I mean, and empathy has been obviously a theme, you know, the lack of empathy, you, you said that was the reason you were participating in, you know, all these crimes in part, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: You shut, shut that out.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, it's somewhat interesting. You talk about knowing, understanding the feelings that somebody or the emotion somebody else are having, but that's not how you just described that. I'm just, I'm not challenging you. I'm just, I, it is interesting that the way you didn't describe empathy towards him as how he was feeling. You talked about sort of more distance that like external things as opposed to internal, like I would have, if I was in that situation, I think I would think, oh my gosh, he's probably embarrassed or maybe he, you know, he's hurt or like, what's he feeling? And I just I'm, again, I'm trying to give you a chance to show that you have empathy towards other people.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay. I might, I might have not said this right, but I felt, I felt he's probably feels disoriented and questioned what happened. And so, he's in some kind of, uh, an anxiety about what's going on. I might not have gotten that over. I meant to say something like that. Uh, uh, and I, I'm sure he was feeling some pain or the shock of, of, of what happened. I bet he probably felt a lot, had a real headache the next day. I'm not sure. But I see him every day so I'm talking to him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Is there another situation you can really think about like when you really understood somebody's emotions of what they were going through? Like somebody going through a hard time. I mean, did, can you think of something like that?

INMATE DAVIS: You know, the first time, um, the first time I've really, it really hit me. I was in Folsom. I've been there a few, uh, a few years and, um, there was a, there was a gentleman in bad news, and he owed a lot of gambling debts. He's a black guy and he didn't, wouldn't pay them. And so, everybody, all the other groups that he owed, they came to his people, and they said, look, uh, we don't want to do something here, but you're going to have to take care of this because we're just not going to let the person go out with, oh, and all this man, his friends or so-called associates, they stabbed him and killed him. And it was right around the corner from where I was standing when it happened and I heard it, but I didn't really know what it was, but I went around the corner and I looked, and there was a guy laying in a pool of blood, a big pool of blood. And when I saw that, it reminded me of Donald Shea and Gary Hinman. And I began to just feel terrible about his parents. I was, I felt, what in the world is his parents going to feel when somebody calls him up, he's from San Diego and tells them your son had just been, or how will they deliver that message? Right? I didn't know how it's delivered, but I thought that what the shock they're going to feel and the sadness they’re going to feel and all of a sudden, man, I have tears in my eyes. I was crying. And at that point, I was prejudiced against blacks. And I wanted to say, well, I don't care, but I couldn't. I would come back, and I would start to cry again and worry about his parents. And that little cycle went on two or three times. And finally, the Lord spoke to me. He said, I'm changing you. And, uh, that was, uh, that was the first time that I ever really hurt for what I believed another person was going to be feeling, the parents. I didn't know, it was too late for him really, but his parents, I really, I mean, I had never, I had never felt bad that way and since I was in the first grade. Right. But that was way before I just gave up empathy. And—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, we're, we're still talking about like current empathy and I wonder if you can think of some, something that's like more recently happened. I, cause I've read about that, that I was sort of the first turning point for you in that, you know, when you realize kind of the harm that you had done. So, but just as far as you exhibiting the empathy for someone else's feelings, and can you think of whenever, sometimes you, you have felt that recently?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, yeah. Some, uh, some, some guys who worked in the chapel got, uh, got fired, threw out, because they had a disagreement and, and they were kind of blackballed from the chapel until further notice. Right. Well, I felt bad because I knew how that felt. And when I felt, if I, when we talked about it, I can feel it. I could feel their pain. I understood the rejection on that side, the, uh, the shock of getting a, getting a write up, uh, you know, the, the, the, the questioning yourself about what you did or why you didn't do that or the other and all that, all that stuff they're going through. So, I understood that, and I felt bad for him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I still do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Before I turn it over to Commissioner Stern, I want to, um, give you a chance to respond to something. And this is from the superior court’s, uh, decision, uh, upholding the Governor's latest review or reversal. Um, and so I want, I want you, again, I'm trying to give you a chance to, to, you know, rebut these types of things that people seem to have a concern about you. So, it says, uh, while petitioner purports to accept responsibility for the commitment offense, the record makes clear the petitioner and that's you, uh, fails to understand his underlying personality and character traits that contributed to his criminal behavior, thus demonstrating a lack of insight. And a lack of insight is some evidence supporting the Governor's finding of current dangerousness. So, I know we've talked a lot about different things that led you to be involved. Uh, what are your, what's your response that you failed to understand your underlying personality and character traits that contributed to his criminal, your criminal behavior? Can you identify those for us?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, okay. Uh, I was, I was insecure. I was impulsive. I was, uh, kind of, uh, a predator in a sense, just looking for what I wanted, you know, and, and so I had that. I had no feeling. I, I didn't respect anything. I'm disrespectful of everything. Uh, I had, uh, a huge, uh, uh, authority problem. Uh, I had anger, uh, it came out and Office mostly passive way, but it came out. And then when it came out for, in the crime itself, I was very active. So, I understood, I had parts, I had things going on in my, in myself that, that were associated with what I did and, uh, I was, uh, I was, I felt, I, I felt rejected, left out, uh, put aside and that led me to be insecure about what I was doing. I had embarrassment about it in my (Inaudible) that, that I really didn't understand as embarrassment at the time, but the way I reacted to it, I look back, I could see it, and I was overly prideful and tried to make up for my, uh, my short feelings inside with arrogance and, and, uh, and pride, tried to overcompensate, so, uh, I know all those things were going on. And, uh—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. And, and most of those things you would attribute to sort of like how you kind of shut things down when you were a teenager, like shutting emotions down?

INMATE DAVIS: I started closing them down. I kept on closing them down. I closed them down more and more and more and more. The just shut down emotionally came to a point where I didn't know. Now I could feel happiness when things happened that made me happy. And I was, I could feel unhappy when things happened that made, that I didn't like, but, but as far as being joyful and, and I'm really feeling, I wouldn't allow myself to feel sad. Now, I wasn't thinking about that but when, when those things came, I just didn't feel it. And I had a habit of turning it off so automatically that I didn't even notice I was turning it off. And, uh, it was, it's a habit that I, I made a (Inaudible) to start with, and then it became, it just became part of me. And, uh—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. I'm sure I will have some other questions, but I am going to turn it over now to Commissioner Stern. So please, uh, give her your attention. Thanks.

INMATE DAVIS: Thank you, ma’am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: We got a lot of background noise.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Is that coming from your, uh, from San Quentin?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, that's outside somebody mowing the lawn it sounds like.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Hopefully that's as loud as it'll get and now, okay. It appears that the noise is gone.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. It's closing down.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Go ahead.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Excellent. Okay. So, um, but I don't need to ask my first question, which is, which was going to be whether you can hear me, but obviously you can hear me. So, um, Mr. Davis, I'm going to be jumping around quite a bit. I have some follow-up questions from the things that you discussed with Commissioner Garland. I know that sometimes that can be confusing. So, if there's any point where my question's not clear, or you don't know what I'm referring to, please let me know. I don't want you to be assuming that, you know, if I'm, if I'm asking a bad question that's confusing, please let me know and I'll rephrase. Okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: All right. So, so what I want to start with actually, what you were just discussing with, with the Commissioner, you talked quite a bit during the beginning of this hearing, and just now about feeling numb and that you were able to sort of shut down your emotions, particularly sadness, and those sorts of things. Is that, um, how long had you been doing that? You, like since you were a teenager?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I started, that started a lot younger than that. Um, I started taking over, uh, gaining control in the life that I liked first by just eating a lot. And it would just change my feeling. Right. And, and so that was, that was a part of it, that was, uh, a, a self-medication thing out of doing so, so that I wouldn't feel it. And, you know, I'm sure I didn't understand what I was doing, but I sure felt good. I mean, it gave me relief. So that's when that started.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: The next thing, the, the next, the next thing that started happening, that went on and then, and then it, then it came into sexual fantasy. And that, that, that changed my, that changed my perspective for momentarily, for a while. And then, and then—

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Hold on. Before, before you go on, what does that mean? That you had, you would have sexual fantasies that changed your perspective?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, in masturbation and the climax, it just changes every, I mean the whole scene goes different.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So that was a way that you escaped from your feelings?

INMATE DAVIS: That was a, that was a moment of pleasure.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Right. And, uh, and, and it it's like drugs. It just, uh, it gives you a moment of pleasure. And then later on when, um, uh, I took some, uh, uh, some diet pills, one time to stay away, but I noticed that it elevated, I didn't, I didn't say, oh, my mood is elevated, but it was, and I, and I liked that because it, it kind of took me away from, from anything bad in my life for just a while. And so those kinds of things helped me to, to, to not feel what was going on.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: And at some point, you replaced those things, or at least added to them, enhance them with, um, using drugs.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Hallucinogenic drugs in particular.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: That’s true.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Um, I don't, I want to ask a question then about, um, your, you, you also talked quite a bit about your, your moral compass and, you know, in relating to your empathy and those sorts of things. We've talked a lot about your father. You've talked a lot about your father for many, many hearings. I don't have much information about your mother and it's curious to me that, that, um, you're describing yourself as somebody who really, you know, grew up without having empathy and, um, not real, you know, and your boundaries were questionable and not realizing that you've made this bad decision to commit these terrible crimes and to be involved in this cult until much, much later. Did you, um, did your mother have much influence on you and your, and your morals and values as you were growing up?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yeah, she did. My parents gave me the, I caught their morals and values. I caught theirs. They didn't have to, they taught it by example. I caught it. My mom, she, she always, she was always good. I was, I was a momma's boy. And, and she would, as I look back, I think she was making up for my dad's bad treatment. And so, she made up and she, she spoiled me. And, uh, for her, I couldn't do it in a sense, not this one to everything, but mostly I was good. I couldn't do anything wrong with my dad. I couldn't do anything. Right. And so, she was the one that was kind of the in between person. And, uh, and so I, I always, we always got along great.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Did she teach you and your sister the difference between right or wrong?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, by her action, but you know, neither my parents ever sat down with us and said, now, look, here are the 10 commandments, for instance, read this, do this, follow these. They never did that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: You didn't go to church growing up?

INMATE DAVIS: A little bit.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: A little bit, but I never, I never learned, uh, a system of morality at all, except by the example that they gave us. So, I learned that it was good to go to work. It's good to make a living. It's good not to get in trouble with the law. And if you want to do it, and my, in my dad's case, if you were going to do something illegal, just don't get caught. And so that was, that was the kind of framework that I had.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh, and so my mother, she just, she, you know, she loved me. My dad loved me. I loved them. They did the best they could with what they had. They, you know, people just don't didn't have a whole lot to do with. Uh, but my mom would, she was always good. She was always good to me. And I appreciated her. You know, I never knew when she was having trouble. I never knew when my dad was having trouble. I never knew.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: But my question really is, um, would your mother say that she taught you the difference between right and wrong?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: No.

INMATE DAVIS: She wouldn't, I don't think, I don't think she would say that now. She did tell, she showed me by her behavior. Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: What to do, what not to. But I don't think we, we never had a conversation about it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: And this, this, you know, it's along the lines of what you were discussing with the Commissioner about, um, your, you know, feeling like you were sort of a child and an adolescent into the, into the time that you were, um, with the Mansons. And so, it's, it's just, it's, um, I'm, I've got a whole lot of papers in front of me, but that you, um, you listened to him, you liked him, you valued his opinion. He was obviously, you know, enormously influential. You were attracted to his influence. And, um, that, you know, it's, it's, I'm just trying to get some clarity on your ability to, to distinguish somebody who is a father figure and a mentor versus somebody who is, um, encouraging you at minimum to commit murders. You were hungry for it. Um, so you talked about never growing up and you were not emotionally an adult. I believe that was what you said to Commissioner Garland.

INMATE DAVIS: I was, I was emotionally stunted. I was stunted. My emotional growth was stunted. It was.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. And, um, I, you know, Commissioner Garland asked, uh, quite a few of the questions I was going to ask. I was, um, so I wanna, I want to just follow up on something that you just, again, that you just spoke about with her, what you talked about, um, the, when you were at Folsom prison, when you had, what you had just mentioned with the Commissioner, talking about hearing the, um, the inmate who was sort of your neighbor be murdered, and thinking about his family. Is that what happened in around 1973? In the, in the Comprehensive Risk Assessment, you talked with a Psychologist about that, the, um, you recognize that you engaged in immoral behaviors around 1973 when another inmate was murdered in prison.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. So that's what you were, that's, that's the same incident you were talking about with Commissioner Garland?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Actually, talking about that, that probably might not even been 1975.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. But years and years and like, you know, 50 years ago. Okay. So, in the, in the seventies. Um, and that the, the, the rest of the quotas, all of a sudden it hit me before that I never felt one ounce of sadness or remorse.

INMATE DAVIS: That’s right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. During, during all the court processes and all of the, you know, the, the, the victim impact statements and the testimony and the, you know, the, the photos, how are you able to sort of disassociate yourself and not, um, not have that impact you to feel any sadness or remorse?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, up until 1974, I was numb. I was numb. I, in my trial, I sat, I had a drawing pad, I sat in and doodled and drew pictures and put my head down and slept.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: You slept. Is that what you said?

INMATE DAVIS: I, yeah, in my, well, I've gone to sleep all the time, but I just put my head, I, I was not able to listen to what was going on. I just, I just avoided it. I avoided it. And because it, I don't, I don't remember. I remember people were saying, and, and people were there talking about it, and it was terrible, but I wasn't feeling it at the time. I just, I just turned off and, and I would just, just try to distract myself with anything around me during, while I was in the trial. And, uh, that's just, I had had, and it wasn't something I said, oh, I need to turn myself off now. It wasn't that. But when, when the circumstance started coming at me, I just, I had to have an, that was a trigger. It just turned me off.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: What was the trigger?

INMATE DAVIS: Bad things, something unpleasant coming at me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Very unpleasant.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So, you, you, you just, you already told me that you used to, when you were very young, you numbed yourself with food. You numbed yourself with, uh, sexual fantasies and sexual pleasure then diet pills, drugs, and then kind of during the court process, you just disassociated completely. You withdraw. And you would, your mind would wander, you would sleep to avoid these feelings.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And I didn't know, I was, I didn't know I was doing it to avoid the feelings, but I just did it. It was, it was like, it was such an ingrained thing. I didn't, it's like when you, if you have a habit smoking, you know, your hand just goes in your pocket. You don't say, you don't think about what you’re doing. It's doing you at that time.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: More of a reflex.

INMATE DAVIS: It was just kind of automatic.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. So, after you have this experience where you hear the inmate being murdered, and, um, you said the Lord, you know, the Lord spoke to you and said, I'm changing you.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Tell us a little bit about that change process. So, did you all of a sudden start letting yourself feel these emotions and really processed what you'd done?

INMATE DAVIS: In part. It was a slow process. I mean, that, that was a, that was a kind of the seed sort of got germinated in regaining empathy right there. But it was a, it was a real time event. And as I started to grow and I started to feel, and the feelings started, and it was slow. I tell you what, it didn't, the next time, I'm pretty sure that was right. The next time I felt anything, I mean, where it really hit me, in 2009.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: What happened in 2009?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, a friend of mine at CMC, I came back from, uh, we had, uh, we had an en banc hearing with nine Commissioners in Solano. They roasted me and I needed to be roasted. It woke me up to some degree. And, uh, so I, I knew I had to change. I had to, I had to rethink myself. So, I'm telling, I'm telling a friend of mine. He said, what happened up there? And I said, well, I told him, he said, well, tell me about your, he said, did you tell me about the crime? I said, no. So, I started telling him about it. He said, you're denying all this stuff. You're minimizing everything. Well, I sort of got upset. I said, I am not. That's what they say. And you guys are all wrong. Cause I'm not. I was telling the truth was I knew it because I had convinced myself true. He says, look, go home, lay down and go through these, go through these murder scenes like a silent movie and keep your commentary out of it. Just watch who did what. All right. So, I said, all right, I'm going to go do that just to prove you're wrong. So, I went, and I did it. And that, later that day, I saw it. All of a sudden, I saw it. Man, I, I'm, I'm a hundred percent participant as anybody else. I was so embarrassed. I hated to admit it. It was terrible, but I was in a way, it was a big relief and another way of it. So it was, I, I thought, I thought, what a fool I'd been, you know, but anyway, I went back and told him, I said you were right. So, the next thing that happened, there's a, there's a magazine in LA. It's called LA, LA Magazine. It's a real slick magazine that advertises Rolls Royce’s and the opera and Rolex watches and things and they had an article that said, Manson's 40 years later. So, this is 2009. Now this was 40 years after ’69 and they had this huge article and they had, at first, somebody offered me the magazine and I just said, no. I played it I already know what happened. I don't need to see it. But something says, I said, okay. I said, okay, I'll, um, I'll just look at the pictures. So, I looked at the pictures and it took me back and made me remember a bunch of stuff and they're not bad articles, but here's what got me. Man, in the end, the end of the article, it had gone through, and it showed, it showed Vincent Bugliosi in ’69 and then it showed him in 2009, young man, old man, uh, Manson, Watson, uh, (Inaudible). Uh, I was, I wasn't in it and (Inaudible). Before and after. Right. And I saw that, how they'd aged in that time. And then the part that really got me was they had a little strip of pictures down here, looked like in their high school annual, just these little pictures and here it was Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger, Jay Sebring, uh, uh, uh, Voytek Frykowski, and, uh, one more, Steven Parent. They didn't get an after picture. They only had that we stopped their after. And when I saw that, it, all of a sudden, I, man, I feel so bad with the situation that I caused because everybody got an after they didn't, we stopped their lives right there. We stopped their everything. And, and caused hundreds of people that knew them, their friends, a lot of pain and it's always going to go, all of a sudden, I just, I just understood that, I don't know if I understood the ultimate enormity of it, but I understood all a lot more than I ever did. And, uh, so when I saw that, I, I felt, I felt their pain.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: And this was about 2009. Is that right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Yeah. The 50 years, okay. Yeah.

INMATE DAVIS: After, after the absence of (Inaudible) movie, I saw myself.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Right.

INMATE DAVIS: And, and then the, the, the book, then I was laying in bed one night and I had, I don't, I guess it was a dream, I don't know, but it was real. I'm standing in a park and, um, and here's two gravestones. I really had a place in the park, there were only two gravestones on the park and there they were, and I'm standing there. It says Gary Hinman and Donald Jerome Shea. And I didn't know what to think of it at first. And this woman walks up on my right. She put her hand on my shoulder and I looked, and it was my mom and at the same time, I knew that it was Gary's mom, and it was Donald’s mom. And she said she wasn't mad. She was really hurt. And I was feeling that, and she pointed to the gravestones and says, that's all you left me. That's all. That's all you left. I felt it. I felt it. And, uh, I began to get in touch with what I'd done and the pain I caused and the lives I ended. And I, and, and the, and the, the sort of the hopeless side of it was, it would never change for people who are hurt by it, they’ll never get over it. I never will. And, uh, it was, um, well, I began to feel it. I began to feel it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And one thing that happened, let me say one more thing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Yeah. Go ahead.

INMATE DAVIS: One, one more, the step. I was in a group. And, uh, it was, uh, uh, uh, alternative to violence. And in the, and in this group, the group itself had to decide what the, the, uh, the, the subject of the, of the, of the three-day meeting would be. And so, and so I was, I was, I'd been reading and stuff. I said, hey, I think we all talk about insight, because if we don't have insight, then the rest of it is just, it's nothing. And so, I made a, I talked about another people out of the ideas I talked about. A guy talked to me later. He said, man, you really did good. You gave a great talk. You could list everybody, and they unanimously voted. And I said, oh no, anybody would've come to that. I, and what I, what I realized was I was afraid to take, uh, credit for anything good or bad. I didn't want to, I didn't want to be part, I didn't want to be a part of an important decision because I was insecure and, and, and afraid of what I was doing. And I said, oh (Inaudible), that, but it hit me. The Lord showed me. He says, hey, you're just afraid. You're just afraid of being somebody. That would, could change the minds of other people and for good or bad, you don't really have the responsibility. If it's good, you you're afraid of, of, of their future expectations of your performance that you don't think you can do. So, you don't take credit for it. And if it's bad, well, it's going to be bad. You sure don't want it. And I started waking up. And, uh, and so, uh, that was 2010, 2009. 2010, I got found suitable and I've been getting better. I'm not out of the woods on all this. I'm not, I'm not hitting my perfected moment of empathy. I’m, I'm growing. I, uh, all these things, it feels like I just came to life about 1974. That's (Inaudible).

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Up to that point—

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Go ahead.

INMATE DAVIS: —I was dreaming I was awake. Excuse me anyway.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So, you came to life in 1974, and you also came to a much more, um, in-depth understanding in 2009 of the harm that you caused and the, um, you know, the, the grave consequences of your actions?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. What, what did you, so give me, um, so what did you do with that? So, you have, you have several revelations around 2009 and 2010 that just completely changed your outlook. And, um, had you already gotten your, um, degree in religion by that point?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, yeah, I got it in 2000.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Right. So how did your, how did your, uh, focus on like treatment change in 2009 or 2010? Your, your empathy has been an issue for many, many years. And so, I need some more information on what treatment or, or groups, programming that you've worked on since that point that have helped you.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, one of the big things was, uh, victim impact program we had an LTOP and, uh, we were very blessed to have, uh, have a lady that really knew what she was doing. And, uh, (Inaudible), it's really a really engineered program. It starts you out where somebody got their (Inaudible)

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Mr., hold on. Hold on. I, we, I read this, this is in, um, I think you've talked about this before. I've read this. I want to know what you learned in the victim impact. I don't want, we, we, we don't need to talk about the curriculum.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: I want to know what you specifically learned.

INMATE DAVIS: I learned that the, the damage I caused was a lot more than I ever thought. I learned, I learned the feelings of people who had been then hurt, had been robbed, had been murdered, the families around, I, because I began to, I began to identify with them as we went through this program. And, and by the end of it, I was more devastated with myself than any, I mean, the things I'd done, and I could, and, and the fraternal, uh, frame of mind and the feelings and the hurt that I caused so many other people.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So how do you live with that now?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I live with it knowing that it happened, I live with it knowing that, uh, I'm responsible. I live with it, knowing that I, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to help other people. I've lived with it by doing what I can to be useful. I'm living with it by, by actually feeling what other people are feeling around me, not everybody, but there's, there's, you know, the people I'm close to, the people I'm around and I've started to identify, uh, well, I've, I've been identified on some level, but it's getting better all the time. And, uh…

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So—

INMATE DAVIS: It's, uh…

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: You mentioned that you're, um, I'm not going to get exactly what you said correct. But as far as empathy, that you're still sort of a work in progress, and you've talked about you're getting better all the time. Um, how is that something that you work on? Have you, do you have specific things that you feel like you're still working on regarding empathy?

INMATE DAVIS: I, you know, I really didn't think of it in that way, but I realized that I'm, I feel I have more love and compassion for people around me than I used to, and that, then that, and I'm praying that that grows and I become more feeling and, and be identified with other people and what they're going through. Uh, I think, I think, I think I'm getting stronger than that. I feel it. I feel like, I feel it, like I never felt it before, so, so I, I know, I, I know that I'm, I know it's, it's growing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Tell me, um, I know you took the denial management also as part of LTOP. Was that something that was helpful to you?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. It was because it put me in touch with the specifics and the mechanics of, of just to, just to kind of things that, and most of the things what they're talking about, I could identify it. Yeah. I can see it now. I can see, I could see my, my denial patterns.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: What are denial patterns?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, my denial patterns at the time, well, let's see. Everybody's doing it. Uh, they made me do it. Um, I couldn't help myself. Um, I was caught up, uh, all those kinds of things were part of, were all part of the, part of the mix. And, uh, so, and, and, and I played the victim side. Oh, I wouldn't have done it for this. So, I had all kinds of ways of denying that I'm responsible instead of just standing up saying, hey, I'm wrong here. I'm sorry. I tell, well, uh, I would have done it, but so-and-so did this, or, or they shouldn't have done that, or, or I just, I just couldn't, you know, just making excuses. And I learned that I could, when, when it came up in this course, nail me to the wall all the time. I can see it. And, and, and now when it happens, I can see it. Sometimes, sometimes I, I said, okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Mm-hm.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, okay. I did what I did. And, and, and I feel like I would be getting over toward, well, it was really their fault. If they had to gone through those changes, I wouldn't have done this. And I say, no, that's not right. I chose to do what I did. Right. And so, they didn't make me do it. And I'm not, uh, I'm not the effect of their cause.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: The same I do, I have to do.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Well, and, and that's, you know, that's something that's come up in the past also is that you're, you know, you, you loved being part of the family because of the, you know, you, you wanted Manson's affection and you love, you know, the drugs and the women and all of that, but you were able to get drugs and, and women elsewhere. You didn't need Manson for that. Correct?

INMATE DAVIS: What’s the question here?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Well, you did, you, you've, you've discussed, you stay with, you, stayed with them because it was, it was such easy access. You didn't have to do anything.

INMATE DAVIS: It was easy.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Yes.

INMATE DAVIS: That's right. It was low hanging fruit, as they say. It was easy. It was easy. It was easier than, than, than out there on my own, uh, acquiring one-on-one. It was, it was in a big bunch. It was free, I thought. It was, it was easy access.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: You said—

INMATE DAVIS: And so—

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Go ahead. Sorry.

INMATE DAVIS: It was easy to take. You know, somebody offered me a whole bunch of what I wanted. It was easy to take.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So, one of the things that came up a couple of times as well, is that, um, as which you're talking about again now, is that things that required no effort on your part were attractive to you. So, you can live with the Mansons and have drugs and girls that you, you know, you're, you're maybe working on dune buggies, and, but there's, there's really not a whole lot that you have to do. What is, um, do you think that that still applies to you? Do you, do you still feel like you want the easy way out with, you know, things that don't require any effort?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, no, I'm not like that. I know everything costs something now. And, and, uh, and the things I've, I've, I've, in my academics, on my jobs I've been in, I'm, I'm, I'm good for learning things, pressing in, uh, you know, expanding the situation and I know it costs something, and I know I'm capable of doing it. And so, I'm, I'm not trying to avoid hard work. I'm not trying to avoid taking responsibility. I'm not trying to, cause I know that I have what it takes to do whatever I need to do. So, so I'm, I'm good for, uh, uh, just looking for the easy way out now, I want to take the easiest way that's good. I mean, you know, if you, if you know a path to somewhere that's a mile long, it's better than taking one to three miles because it's just, it's quicker. But, but I'm not just looking, I'm just not trying to find the path of least resistance and, and just find the easy way to do it no matter what. No, I'm not sure that—

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So, if and when, if you are—

INMATE DAVIS: I know the payoff is not going to be good.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. If and when you are released to the, to the community, let's talk about the way you would support yourself.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: What's your plan?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, my plan is this. Uh, I'm going to a transitional. Uh, I'll have a lot, uh, I've forgotten a lot of people who I've known for years and they said, hey, we, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna see that you'd get, you'd get your, okay, you're gonna, we're going to help you with a job, a place to live. We're going to help you financially if you needed. Uh, we're going to do what we can to make a way. Uh, there'll be, there'll be opportunities in the ministry for me to be, for me to be non-employed but occupied with it. So, I have, I have plans to do and I'll get, I’ll get a social security payment. So, uh, I believe I, uh, I'm, I'm pretty secure on that side.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: So, you have quite a number of support letters from various people, including your sister who I think is in North Carolina. Um…

INMATE DAVIS: That’s right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. So, there's been, there was a lot of talk at prior hearings, um, about your, uh, the possibility of, let me see, so the impact of media attention on your social support. So, I, so I wanna read you something from the risk assessment on page 15, it says that, uh, you have considered, you, you appear to have considered the impact of media attention on your social support and your stress level, and that you're likely to experience understandable, but noteworthy stress in your transition back to the community, um, particularly if it's, if, if you are repeatedly negatively targeted by the public and or the media. Your willingness to consider a tour or speaking in public about his experiences with the Manson family and possibly the associated crimes demonstrate lacking sensitivity and empathy, and or another area that may contribute to stress for him as these activities are likely to not be well-received by some. What, and I know there's been some discussion about what actually you meant by speaking in public about your experiences. So, and then you just mentioned the ministry. Where are you at with that?

INMATE DAVIS: If I'm invited to a gathering, especially Christians who said, we'd like to hear the story of redemption, I think that's a good thing. I’d do that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Is that the only thing you would consider? I mean, so, so you would only consider it if it was a group of Christians who want to talk about your redemption story?

INMATE DAVIS: That would be the main, that would be the main audience, as far as I can tell. I've never been, I've never had any input for anything else.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: How do you think that would impact, uh, your victim's families?

INMATE DAVIS: I should think that they would like to see a person who is past the terrible things he did. I should take they'd be, they'd be, uh, they would like to see somebody who is, who is better now than they were.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Is this something that you anticipate, um, getting paid for?

INMATE DAVIS: Not really. There might be, there might be some kind of compensation, but I'd never asked for it. If somebody says, what are your financial needs? I said, I have none from, from this.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: What if the victim's family said, uh, asked you, asked you not to do that?

INMATE DAVIS: I’d consider that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Um, I may come back to that later, but I want to ask you about another part of that paragraph that I read to you is, um, the impact of the stress on you. Like, so, you know, this, this whole process obviously is stressful for, for everyone involved and there's, but if you are, I mean, there, there is almost certain to be negative press if you were ever found released, you know, found suitable and released to the community. Have you thought about that and how you would handle that?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Tell me what your thoughts

INMATE DAVIS: There was the negative, there've been negative press when I just got found suitable.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Yeah.

INMATE DAVIS: Much less. And I can remember, I imagine every several zeros put on it when I'm out, so I understand that's going to happen. I deserve it. I'm not a—

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: How do you deal with that?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: What, so, so tell me your, tell me your coping skills. Tell me, um, you know, you've talked a little bit about your triggers. You mentioned negative media as perhaps an external trigger. So, you've had a lot of time to think about this. How are you going to manage that kind of stress?

INMATE DAVIS: I, I'm going to recognize what the truth of the matter is. And if what people say is the truth, I just say, it's the truth. If somebody said you were a horrible person and you're responsible for all these lies, I would agree. I'd say, I'm so sorry, but you're right. I wouldn't, I wouldn't fight against it. I wouldn't, I wouldn't come back against it and say, oh no, that's not right. I'd say you're right. Uh, whatever, anything about the crimes I was in, that's history and, and, and they're right, and I was wrong. So, whatever, whatever would be said, I would know what the truth is, and I know what isn’t. And, and I'm, I'm willing to face the truth. It's an honor to face the truth.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Um, I'm just looking at my notes here. Okay. So, so let me stay on that for a moment. So, you have, I mentioned, you have quite a lot of support letters. There are, um, also letters of acceptance from transitional homes, including, um, I believe the one that you prefer as in San Louis Obispo, is that correct?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. And you spent quite a long time at the prison in San Luis Obispo.

INMATE DAVIS: Quite a long time.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Quite a long time. Okay. Um, I want to also, hold on. I need to change my view here. Oh, so are you a facilitator in Al-Anon right now?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, no. I'm not a facilitator. I'm a member.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. So you are, you are attending AA meetings as well as Al-Anon meetings?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I quit going to AA because, uh, Al-Anon suited my case better, suited my life better.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Why is that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, uh, AA is for people that were alcoholics and had super, super terrible problems with alcohol. I did embarrass myself a few times with alcohol. Right. But I never had an ongoing thing. I don't pass the test of, of having it at home, having to have it, losing relationships over all this. I never did that. But Al-Anon is about being raised in an alcoholic family. Now I was that, and so I inherited, I guess, by reference, you know, some of the traits and so Al-Anon is better for me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. So—

INMATE DAVIS: I mean it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Right. Al-Anon is intended more for the family members of alcoholics?

INMATE DAVIS: Mm-hm.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. So, your father is an alcoholic? Was?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma’am.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: All right. Um, let's see. I have a couple of other questions then I'll turn it back to the Commissioner. Um, the, how would you describe yourself now? You talked about your, uh, negative characteristics that led you to committing this crime. So, what are like the three words that, the three adjectives that best describe you now?

INMATE DAVIS: I have a desire to be useful. I know who I am. Um, I know where I came from, and I know where I'm going.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: How do you feel about the law now? And I want to, I want to ask you this specifically, because you talked about, um, you know, your boundaries were sort of not getting caught. That was one of the things that you learned as a child. And, um, you spent some time in jail, I think way back in the sixties that I believe caused you to say, I'm done with society. I'm not interested in working or paying taxes or anything.

INMATE DAVIS: That’s right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: And that's a lot of disrespect for obviously the law and the system. How do you feel about that now?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I've grown up now and I realized the value of law enforcement and, uh, I respect the law and, and the people that are in it and, and for my life scene, you know, they're, they're, they're the keepers of our lives from, from the chaos that could just happened and, and, and I believe in the law because God gave the law and, and it, and it's for our lives. I had a death, I had a, kind of a death outlook. I didn't care. That's changed.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Just a couple of other things. You, you also mentioned to Commissioner Garland that, um, Manson's fantasy of the race war you thought really had nothing to do with you and that it was, or had nothing to do, right. Nothing to do with you. And that it was a fantasy.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: How has, you also mentioned that, um, Scientology was sort of a fantasy, but you, you thought that the two things were different?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, they weren't different in the fact that they were completely unrealistic. They were, they were similar that way.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Do you, um, were you a racist at the, at the time that you were with the Mansons?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I've never been a racist. I've been, I've been, uh, prejudiced, but I've never thought that I was better than somebody of a different color or a different, a different culture. I've never thought they were less than, uh, or deserve less. Uh, I never thought about being superior as a, as, you know, a matter of skin color.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. I think this is my last question. Um, I just want clarity on this. How long did you remain loyal to Manson after the crimes were committed?

INMATE DAVIS: Probably, maybe, uh, when I, I turned myself in, in, in December of ‘70. So that was the December following (Inaudible). I started losing, it took a (Inaudible), I started losing respect and loyalty for, for Manson. The first time, when, when I noticed that his mind had started to leave him. Uh, we were in, we were in a bus ride to LA together, and I was talking to him, and he was just going off. And I said, wow. I didn't understand what it was. But, but when I saw, when I saw the brother get killed, then I, then I saw, yeah, I, all of a sudden I saw that my, my loyalty had been completely misplaced. And, uh, that was when I said Charlie deserves to be in prison and so do I.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: That was the 1974 incident with the other inmate?

INMATE DAVIS: This is when the inmate got killed.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: That's, that's when I that's, when I really, it really got real to me the bad things we'd done and that, and that, that, that Manson, I had misplaced my loyalty. I just put it in the wrong place completely. And from then on, uh, I told, I told her there were several other people as a, as a so-called family that were writing and I told them, don't write me. And I took the letters to the captain at Folsom. I said, I don't want these guys. I told him, I said, I'm cut off.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. Uh, Commissioner, I don't have any other questions at the moment.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. I have a few follow-ups, but sort of in random order, um, if I can look at my notes here. You mentioned, when you talked about the victim impact, uh, class was when you sort of realized the harm that you had caused. Why do you think, I mean, that was back in late 2000s or was that earlier?

INMATE DAVIS: No, it was 2000 something because it was, it was around the time that I got found suitable. So, it's around, I don't remember exactly the date. It was into 2000 somewhere I'm pretty sure.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So that's, uh, 30 plus years after you inflicted that harm, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Why do you think it took you so long? Same thing. I couldn't, didn't care. That kind of stuff?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, ma'am, I hate to sound funny about this, but I would, I just, it, it just didn't hit me till it hit me. You know, I just didn't know it until it, it was just, it was a revelation. And when that came—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So, let me, let me understand the difference between the ’74, ‘75 witnessing of the, the black inmate who was murdered.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Like you said, that's when you kind of have this ability to empathize a little bit, but then, then you say, you know, it took another 30 years for you to understand the impact of your, what you did because of victim impact class. So, what, what do you think was the biggest chain for you or were there, uh, were, was there a different sort of revelation with each of those incidents that you've referred to?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, obviously those were big turning points, but I think, I think between the time when I, when in the middle seventies, I think it began to grow and I began to just, I didn't understand it, that I'm growing in empathy. I didn't understand those terms, but I know that I started to feel different about how other people felt that I was close to, and I know that they deserved, they deserved my love because they are fellow creatures. I know they did that. And, and so I adopted that point of view and, and the feeling started to follow the decisions. And, uh, I, I felt different, and I wasn’t analyzing this. I had no vocabulary about empathy and these kinds of things. Right. It was just—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: —just kind of going through my feelings, you know?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yeah. All right. Uh, and again, this is in random order. You talked about why you aren't in AA, because those are people who have problems with alcohol, but you clearly had a problem with drugs, right? I mean, you were pretty hooked on marijuana. You were using LSD. I mean, it, drugs is a big factor of what led you to be part of this—

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: —incredibly violent cult.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So why don't you think you need treatment about on your own drug problems? So, either that, whether that's through NA or AA, the steps are pretty similar.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, that's true. Uh, well, you know, uh, I was standing along their tier of, uh, (Inaudible) in Old Folsom, 1974, waiting on my friends to bring some hash and a thought entered my mind, completely foreign to me, it says you'll never get high again. At that moment, my desire for that stuff just quit me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you think you need any treatment on the fact that drugs, I mean, drugs are going to be very, you know, you've been very good at following the rules in prison, but I mean, marijuana is legal right now in California. If you get out, it's going to be right there and, you know, you, you just, you're, I see you're sort of smiling at me. You're just—

INMATE DAVIS: No. There's a lot of poison out there. I know the difference now. I don't want that stuff.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. All right. Another, okay. I, I mean, I think you've answered. I just wanted, I wanted to understand why you think that that's something that doesn't apply to you, and I think you answered that. Um, all right. So, you said something about speaking on, like, if you were to, if you were asked to speak on your sort of redemption story, you would, you would do that. Um, and then when you were asked, you know, how do you think the family members would feel about that? You said that you thought, you know, that they would like to see somebody change. They'd like to see somebody who, you know, that is no longer that person. What makes, what, what do you base that, uh, that on? Why do you think that the family would want to see you being able to share your story about your redemption and your change?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I, I think, I think most of the people, and I'm just making a guess here. I don't know anybody personally, but I'd say they have, they have a certain, uh, aspect of mercy in their own life. And I think everybody just in a general sense understands that, that God has treated us very mercifully. I believe that. And that, and that he's, he's put, he turned, he's put a conscious innocent will, and we make a lot of decisions, but there's the idea of mercy. There's the idea of mercy. And, and it's something we don't deserve. We don't deserve this, his mercy. And, but I think that, that the, the people in it, which would, I think they'd be, they'd be glad to see that the person that did all this bad stuff is, has changed for the better. It seems like anybody would like to see someone changed for the better.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Now—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Did you have something else? Because I had another question.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: Next question.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So next question. Um, there's, there's, uh, there's some things written about, uh, maybe in the CRA, maybe in, in previous or, and I mean, there's so many documents. I can't remember exactly where I heard it, but that you've acknowledged that you do have a need for admiration.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: So, here's what, let me—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Go ahead. You can explain that.

INMATE DAVIS: I don't mean to be idolized. I don't mean that. I just mean, I like to be acknowledged for something good I did. I enjoy that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Person says you did good, I don't, I don't want it to be idolized.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Right. I mean, but admiration is, is different. Not everybody, you know, wants that sort of feedback either. But let me, let me ask you, I would assume, and this is a guess, um, as a Manson family member in prison, you've gotten a lot of attention. Is that fair to say?

INMATE DAVIS: That's fair.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. You've gotten visitors. You've gotten correspondence. I mean, fairly notorious person in prison. Does that, is that fair?

INMATE DAVIS: That’s fair.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you like that?

INMATE DAVIS: I don't like it in the sense that, oh, I'm really, I really, I'm really cool. It's really making me good. I don't like it in that sense. You know, when people write to me, I send them one of my testimony tracks. I talked to them about the Lord. I said, where are you at? What kind of choice are you making? I'm interested in, in their future. I tell him, I said, I, I'm not really interested in telling you all the details about what happened 50 years ago. You can read that in a million places. I'm interested in what's going to happen after you die. That's what I'm interested in. And what are you, what, what are you doing for that? That's my big—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Do you think other, do you think other inmates resent that notoriety or the fact that, you know, you get visitors. Some people never get a visitor in their life when they're in prison. So, I mean, do you, have you thought about how other prisoners think of you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, ma'am, some people are going to review your resentment no matter what. They're just resentful. So, and in my case, I realize people say, oh, man, Davis gets all this, and he gets all that. Not really true. I mean, uh, I don't, I'm not entitled to anything. I'm entitled to nothing. So, uh, I'll tell you what. Most, most of the inmates I've ever had contact with, they, they know about going through court. They know about getting found guilty. They know about ending up in prison. Right. And so, and they're interested in the case, of course, you know, it's got, it's got all the mystery and stuff with it. And so, it's, it's, there's, there's always questions about it. I don't try to make myself any kind of a hero in all of this. I tell them, this is my stupid period. I sadly regret that I ever got involved in that. And, uh, if, if, I don't mean, I don't want to influence anybody to do the same thing I did. So don't think that, that I'm up here—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yeah. No, I wasn't. I'm not suggesting that. I, I guess I'm trying to figure out where you are with this, um, you know, kind of you're, you're a big fish. It's not a little pond. I, that's probably a terrible analogy, but you're a known fish in a big pond, right? You're, you're, you're infamous in some ways.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: And if you are released in, in the community, that infamy will stay with you, I assume.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: So how, and I know Commissioner Stern asked you this, but I'm not sure I get a clear picture. How are you, how are you going to deal with that? I mean, that infamy can be a negative and a positive, uh, attention, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yes, ma'am. Okay. In a certain way, I welcome it like this. If it's a negative, I just apologize. You're right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, what would you welcome about it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the fact that I can stand up and say, I did, I'm really sorry. Uh, I can apologize. Uh, I can say you're right. Uh, I'm not, I'm not mad at you for feeling bad about me. I deserve it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Well, no, you were saying like the positive notoriety, like if you had the positive, you would, you know, that you’d welcome that.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: But what does that mean?

INMATE DAVIS: The positive note, right, when somebody says, hey, I hear you’re involved, and it just happens a lot because, hey, man, I heard you with the driver for Charlie, blah, blah, blah. I say, yeah, man, that was really dumb of me. And then I used that as just a platform and say, yeah, that was all, I said, 60 years ago. But listen, what about you? Why are you asking this question? You know. Why do you care? And I just want to talk to the person about who they are and where they're going. So, I, I, I, I realized, I wish I hadn't gotten to this platform. It was terrible, but I ended up with is real now. So, I just deal with it. Uh, and, and I, I use it to, to bring glory to God. That's, that's my, that's my ambition.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. Last question I have, um, is that your, we've talked a lot about insight, you know, and, and why you did what you did and all of that. Um, and it's, you know, the, the real theme is you didn't care. You didn't care about yourself. You didn't care about anyone, right? It, it, arguably, some people may look at that as like a convenient excuse, you know, because the real reason maybe is you had these dark, evil thoughts inside of yourself and, and Manson and group gave you an outlet to express that. What, what would you say to that interpretation of how you got to where you are? And, and, and I don't mean it, as I'm saying, it's an excuse, but like that thinking of your story and your fact about why you had no emotions, no empathy, no caring, and you shut everything off that that that could be an excuse for what you did. What's your response?

INMATE DAVIS: I realized that people could take a lot of things and some people will, and I'm not surprised. I, I'd be surprised they didn’t cause that's, that's, uh, that's uh, it looks pretty obvious—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, let's say, I'm saying to you, I think this is a bogus excuse. I think that you knew exactly what you were doing. You had grown up in a way. You knew right from wrong. You had judgment. You had, you had empathy, you had everything you needed to do, and you found Manson and you decided to become a killer and that was your outlet.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry you feel that way, because that's an error and here's the error. I didn't decide to become a killer. I decided to do what Charlie wanted. If it included that, I did it. Uh, it was just my reference from him. I, you know, I never had, well, I got in, I got in a couple of fights at school when I was in, in grade school, but I was never a violent person. Uh, that wasn't me. I avoided violence. I got enough of that at home. So, I—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. So, here's, here's another question then. I know I said it was done, but I'm not obviously.

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, that’s okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Uh, so you said in denial management, you realized, you know, that that's what you'd been doing. You've been denying it and sort of, you know, saying, you know, you were like, denial, you've talked about denial is meaning, like, you just, you get caught up, you make excuses, you know, you make, say somebody else made you do it. Well, and now you're, you're saying you're not denying it, but those are exactly the things that you're still saying. Right? You're saying you did all these things because of Manson. You did it because Manson told you to. So, isn't that still somewhat of denial?

INMATE DAVIS: I did it because I gave my loyalty to him, whatever. I gave him, my loyalty to him. That, that, that made the decision in a way that already made the decision. Uh, I knew, I knew it was against the law. I thought I'd get away with it. I didn't think it would ever come back on me. I just had these hopeful fantasies that everything would somehow work out I don't know how, but I—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. I'm going to turn it over to your Attorney for a minute. I do want to just note for the record, uh, Commissioner Stern did talk about the letters of support. We also, you know, and this sort of goes to the notoriety, um, you know, what you'd be facing in the public. We also did, uh, receive a petition with almost 30,000 signatures, uh, asking us not to find you suitable for parole and, and several thousand, uh, comments about, about you and why, you know, it would be a danger to release you. So, I just wanted to note for the record, we did receive as well as some other opposition letters.

INMATE DAVIS: Sure.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Um, you know, so obviously there's, there are a lot of emotions that are, um, uh, tied into this and understandably so, and, um, you know, people are concerned about the effect your release would have on, on the public and on safety so, um, and obviously that's what makes our job difficult is to try to figure out how to balance all of that. So, anyway, um, I appreciate, uh, your answers or time on that. I'm going to now turn to your Attorney, Mr. Beckman, do you have any clarifying questions for your client?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: No, I do not, Commissioner.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. So, you can go ahead with your closing statement.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Can we take a five-minute break before we do that?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Sure. You bet. It is, uh, 1131 and we'll come back at about five, six, seven minutes, something like that. Does that work?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Um, just trying to take a stretch real quick.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. No problem.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: We are back to recording, Commissioner.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: It's 11:39 AM and all participants have returned from the break. Mr. Beckman, you can go ahead with your closing statement.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Thank you, Commissioner. I apologize in advance. I'm still getting over a cough from COVID, and it had making me have a little bit difficulty speaking. So, if you can't hear me, just tell me. Okay?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay. No problem. And take your time. If you need a break during it, that's fine. We're going to, we're going to have about 10 minutes on closing statements. Okay.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Okay. Um, I've run out of things to say. Seven parole grants, January 28th, 2010, October 4th, 2012, March 12th, 2014, August 27th, 2015, February 1st, 2017, June 28th, 2019, and January 31st, 2021. Seven Governor reversals. 33rd subsequent hearing. So, I'm not gonna say much. I'm gonna incorporate by reference my closing arguments from all the prior hearings. And I'm going to let the words of others speak primarily for me. (Inaudible) of the last seven Panels, finding Bruce Davis has rehabilitated himself and is suitable for parole. I'm going to just quote from one from the 2015 grant, decision pages five and six. We believe Mr. Davis does have sufficient insight into his previous criminality that convergence of factors in his life from childhood on that led to his willingness to actively involve himself with his crime partners, including Mr. Manson and his willingness to become directly involved in the events surrounding two murders. We believe that he accepts responsibility for these two murders in appropriate fashion. He has identified issues from his childhood, issues from his young adulthood, which contributed to his thought process and decision-making at the time of the commitment offense. The last nine state forensic experts going back to 1999 had found that Mr. Davis poses a low risk of violence if released. I'm going to let a few of them explain why. And in the 2009 Comprehensive Risk Assessment, Dr. Sachar stated, “review of records from over the years and the current (Inaudible) Mr. Davis suggests that his level of insight regarding the causative factors has increased over the years.” In finding him to be a low risk of violence, she stated, ”no areas of concern were identified, which would require addressing in order to further reduce his risk of violence.” Those are from pages 13 and 16 of that CRA. In 2010, Dr. Thacker conducted, used to have called the subsequent risk assessments of Mr. Davis. In finding only mitigating dynamic factors since the 2009 CRA, she stated on page eight, “he has continued to develop a deeper level of insight and understanding regarding the causative factors, which contributed to his choices leading up to the life crime. His remorse for his actions there affects others also continues to grow in deep.” In the October 9th, 2013, Comprehensive Risk Assessment, Dr. Pritchard states at pages 10, 11, he speaks openly and accepts responsibility for his behavior. He does not minimize, deflect from, or deny it participation. Spoken about the offense at great length over the years and has expressed increasing understanding and acceptance of responsibility and participation. He speaks thoughtfully and with emotion. He is attempting to further elaborate the thoughts, feelings, and motives presented in the self-assessment above. He is not trying to rationalize or excuse his behavior. He expresses his remorse openly and without qualification. So, on page 13, Dr. Pritchard gave the best explanation why there was no nexus between Bruce Davis’s nearly half century old life crimes and his current dangerousness. “Mr. Bruce Davis is a 71-year-old man who participated in two violent murders in early adulthood. When he was a member of an antisocial hedonistic and violent cult. He has no other significant criminal history outside of this association. While incarcerated, he has taken the opportunity to improve his knowledge, attitudes, behaviors, and beliefs. He has used these areas of improvement to develop a meaningful and self-correcting insight and self-awareness.” At this time, it seems a little more he can do to further reduce his visit beyond his continuing to age. He has continued to age nine years past that risk assessment. He's now 79, will be 80 in three months and he served nearly 50 years in prison. As a result, this hearing is being held for the special adult parole suitability standards. The 2020 Comprehensive Risk Assessment notes on page 15, “inmate have been less impulsive and recklessness behaviors incurring almost no rule infractions or chronos, almost three decades. He has numerous chronic health conditions that impair his, impact his physical capacity endurance, limiting his ability to build or work. There is no indication of recent cognitive decline that would negatively impact his violence risk profile. As such, inmate’s age and failing health and cognitive functioning all mitigate his violence risk and favor suitability.” The best description of the kind of man Mr. Davis has become and why he's no longer, not only a threat and dangerous, but will be a positive force in society if freed is found in the declaration that we submitted by inmate Richard Kelly, where Mr. Davis actually saved two lives, and I'm not going to quote it. I, I submitted it. Please read it. It's really important to get a sense of who Bruce Davis is today. I had thought the red herring of Bruce Davis speaking tour had been put to bed. Because it was raised again, I have to briefly address it. Mr. Davis never said he was going to be speaking to earn for profit. He said, he’s been asked to give sermons on his redemption at various churches. The sermons were focused on his fall and then redemption. They would not involve him discussing the facts of the Manson family and their crimes, which he has refused to do. And he would not be paid to do so, other than a small stipend to cover his travel expenses. I can also tell you that multiple media personalities have contacted me over the last 10 years to see if Bruce Davis would speak with them. Lots of dollars were offered and have been discussed. Each time I relayed this to Mr. Davis, his response was no, not interested, won't do it. I hope that as through age is a concern that he's looking to profit from his notoriety when he is released, if he's released. I know conceivable stretch of anyone's imagination has Bruce Davis not rehabilitated himself. No one could say anything to the contrary. Just look at how he's handled having seven parole grants reversed over the past 12 years, no acting out, no disciplinary problems, no wallowing, just redoubling his efforts at bettering himself, knowing that he's likely to die in prison. I could get into a discussion with you about how the Governor is when he says my client lacks empathy or insight is making an argument in the face of nine forensic experts would find, his own experts would find to the contrary, but it doesn't really matter. The Governor is going to do what he's going to do, and you're going to do what you have to do. Please do the right thing again and grant Bruce Davis parole for the eighth time. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you, Mr. Beckman. All right. Mr. Davis, would you like to give a closing statement?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. Well, I appreciate all y'all being here for this and, uh, I know it's a, it's, it's stressful for me. I can, I can only imagine it's in much stressful for everybody who's going to make decisions that affect somebody's life, and you want to wait for the right one and I want you to, and I believe you will. And, uh, I accept, I accept whatever your decision is. Uh, you know, we just, we just have to take what comes out of and deal with it. And, uh, and so I, I'm happy to, uh, to be here today. Uh, uh, I think it would be, uh, quite redundant to say that I'm a different person that, that I was so I won't go into all that, but I just want to say this. When Jesus saved me, I began to, to absorb the forgiveness of Christ and to recognize that I was a child of God and every other human being is a child in the creative mode and that they, they are prized by God as much as anyone and we're all equal at that. And that I owe every person the best I can give him, and I've done what I can. I haven't been perfect at it by far, nobody ever accused me of that, but I've made some, I've made effort and I've made progress and, and, and doing, doing what the Lord wants for me. And so, we're here today. I just appreciate y'all's attention and that's, you've, uh, you put yourself out for this and that you're going to make a decision and, um, I bless you for it. I thank you. And, uh, uh, good luck. God bless you. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you, Mr. Davis. Ms. Martley, would you like to go first or is there a certain order you and the representatives would, uh, like to do the closing statements?

VNOK MARTLEY: Yeah. Unmute.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Okay.

VNOK MARTLEY: Thank you. I'll make, I'll go first. I think you might have my picture. I'm not quite sure.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Yeah. We see you.

VNOK MARTLEY: I apologize for computers. My name is Kaye Hinman-Martley. I am Gary Hinman's cousin, and I speak for him in the denial of Bruce Davis’s released from prison. I'm here with Deborah Tate and Anthony, excuse me, Anthony DiMaria, also victim family members, to keep the remaining five Manson cult killers in prison. All five of these couplers received the death sentence and only because of law changes they all remain alive but should never be allowed to lie because of the death and the murder, crimes they committed. Gary was tortured for three days. Gary’s blood was all over the inside of his house. Bruce Davis and the other Manson killers beat him, cut his ear almost off, shot him. Gary was a devout Buddhist and begged over and over for them to leave with no apprehension. Gary was working on a Doctorate in social work and was a soft-spoken and gentle soul left. Gary has left literally, literally (Inaudible) for three days in the summer some days before he was found by his friends. Bruce Davis and cult members took little cash and two old cars of Gary’s and left him to rot. There was not kindness in their hearts and Bruce thinks his debt is paid. Bruce's death can never be paid. Bruce has already been rewarded by given life and must remain in prison. We as family members are denied access to any of the records of the prison. We were denied to ask any questions because we do not get the same privilege with an Attorney as Bruce Davis does. If Bruce Davis does help with things at the prison, fine, that is what he should do for bed and Board. Bruce Davis should remain in prison for the murderous act of killing Gary Hinman and others. Bruce Davis has knowledge of Tate and LaBianca murders but stayed and remained with Manson even then yet he’s willing to ask for mercy. He spoke, when you asked him if he would consider speaking before a group, and he was asked if you would consider the family and he said he would consider the family's feelings about it. He didn't say, I won't speak about that. He said he would consider our feelings. So, I don't find that very forgiving in his respect. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you, Ms. Martley. Uh, Ms. Tate, would you like to go next?

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE TATE: Sure. Why not? I have, as you do Commissioners and Deputy Commissioner, a lot of (Inaudible) regarding previous decision hearing transcripts, et cetera. And I'm going to try to give you the crib, as well as my own notes today, I'm going to try to give you the crib note versions as I think that Mr. DiMaria will cover a lot of this. Uh, I'm going to bring up some of these subjects simply because I think that they are extremely applicable today. So, um, in previous denials and even his second appellate court’s, uh, uh, habeas corpus review, it was determined that Davis continued to be probative to his current danger. In other words, he still thinks in, in regard to what happens, why it happened, which you ladies addressed today, uh, how his present mindset is in a way that is actually in my opinion, proving our case and makes us as victims next of kin extremely nervous. He still minimizes his role in these vicious crime by saying which you also addressed, you know, because he followed Manson. He didn't care. I'm going to jump out there on the limb and say that he had sociopathic tendencies as a small child and that all of is had challenges growing up. Divorce in the family, more horrific things, I myself did, including the murder of my sister, which Mr. Davis could have prevented if he had one ounce of concern for anybody else. It's my observation that he was lazy and wanted the easy way out, even in his feel-good stimuli, such as women and drugs, uh, wanted to do in little as humanly possible with a lot of, uh, personal gratification, including murdering people for self-gratification. The motive there was to make money for a nonsensical group. And yes, he was accepted. He was accepted by his own kind. I don't think he appreciates the seriousness of his participation. The, uh, the crimes were especially heinous and cruel acceptance, and prior acts inflicting serious injuries on victims had absolutely no effect on Mr. Davis whatsoever. Now he has been incarcerated and has had little, uh, opportunity. We've got a 10-year gap in between his two major revelations, uh, that barred empathy. Um, and that's just, it's kind of mind boggling to me. Um, Mr. Davis asked for mercy. What mercy did he show his victim? Murder is something you can't undo. You just can't undo it. And yet you desire mercy when you show none to others and you demonstrate nothing but self-serving notions of rehabilitation with little to back it up other than empty without empathy or insight or remorse in my opinion. I, I pray before every hearing that you show us somehow come to truly understand these shortcomings in your personality makeup, and that you will repay—

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Ms. Tate.

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE TATE: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Ms. Tate, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I, the rules are to, uh, address your comments to the Panel, not to, uh, Mr. Davis directly, if you wouldn't mind.

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE TATE: Okay. I’m talking to the Panel, aren’t I?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you.

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE TATE: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Now you were talking to him directly saying you.

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE TATE: (Inaudible) am, or he may and, uh, let me see how’s my, I pray, okay. I pray every day that he, he would come to the hearing with a fuller, full body revelation, but he has yet to do that. He has had challenges and imperfect upbringing and did not choose to act in an acceptable manner as most young people do but instead went to a very dark, dark, dark side. Our lives have forever been impacted and can never be what we could be. Our loved ones will never have that him and they were people that would have done marvelous things for other philanthropic individuals by nature. I don't feel on our behalf, the victims, the ones in the grave, as well as the extended family, uh, meaning murdered partner victim, uh, I don't feel that Mr. Davis has done enough work on himself. By his own admission, he's a work in progress. And I think that that is a very good thing, but I, I think that progress needs to happen while in a controlled environment. And for that reason, I'm asking the Board to extend, uh, incarceration time. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you, Ms. Tate. Uh, Mr. DiMaria.

VICTIM'S REPRESENTATIVE DIMARIA: Uh, thank you, Commissioner Garland. Um, my name is Anthony DiMaria. I had been, uh, uh, I've been asked by Gary Hinman's family to speak as a family representative. To be clear, our family's involvement in today's hearings has nothing to do with anger, hatred, or vengeance toward Bruce Davis. Rather, we speak out of love for those silenced in their graves at the hands of the petitioner before you today. Part of what continues to impact our families are these hearings and what is said in them, and we appreciate the right to address the many realities related to these offenses. This is the fifth parole hearing our families have attended in the past nine months. I commend Mr. Davis today for acknowledging his culpability in all family murders. I mentioned this because one of the persistent tactical distortions in these hearings are the inmates and their Attorneys contention that the petitioner's crimes occurred separately in a vacuum. Today, Mr. Beckman references several times his client's involvement in two murders as if each crime is void of any connection and or responsibility intrinsic throughout the, the Manson family rampage on six nights of violence and killing. I include the shooting and attempted murder of Bernard Crowe and the attempted murder of Barbara Hoyt. I bring this up to provide accurate historical context of these crimes that is often overlooked in these hearings that reveals the extensive, severe nature of these murders Bruce Davis and his Manson family cohorts conspired, targeted, extorted, mutilated, and killed electively like a pack of jackals. Those whose slaughtered in the Manson family shared common racist, terrorists, and criminal, violent criminal motives with sustain unified intents. It is no random coincidence that after Gary Hinman was slaughtered and a family member killer was arrested in the victim’s vehicle on August 6, less than a day and a half before the murders of five people and an unborn child on Cielo Drive that the entire, that the entire Manson family rampage was unleashed. Mr. Davis was a powerful figure and an influential force in the Manson crime organization. For the record, I see the Manson family not as a hippie cult. It was a violent crime syndicate whose pervasive crimes extended over seven years culminating in the attempted assassination of President Gerald Ford on September 22nd, 1975, by Lynette Fromme who was a very influential member in the family as Mr. Davis confirmed today. It bears noting that this inmate's crimes were the very first and last killings of the entire Manson family murder rampage. Had Bruce Davis contacted the authorities after Gary Hinman's face was slashed and his ear severed in half, 10 people would have lived their lives naturally, and completely. I include Sharon Tate's unborn child as one of the 10. But Mr. Davis chose to be a prime killer in one of the most notorious crime organizations in United States’ history. Mr. Davis perpetuated Manson murder mystique when he carved a swastika on his forehead and grotesque, and grotesquely taunted society during his trial. Bruce Davis’s actions horrified the nation and cause permanent cultural wounds that impact society even today, as evidenced in morbid Manson murder fascination and throughout mainstream media. The Manson, the Manson mystique that emanated from Mr. Davis’s crimes is tragically influential in the horrific murder murders of Vivian French and Jason Sweeney. Each of these cases exhibit the lingering threat and current dangerousness of Mr. Davis and his crimes which I will address later in this statement. Regarding Lawrence. I'm sorry. I heard some… Regarding Lawrence. If ever murderers could meet the criteria as established in Lawrence, Bruce Davis's offenses embodied the very definition with, with lethal repercussions, even decades after his incarceration. As we know, but for the record, Lawrence states, “in rare and particularly egregious, egregious cases, the fact that the inmate committed the offense can provide an indication of the inmate’s potential for future danger despite strong evidence of rehabilitation in the record.” At the last hearing on June 28th, 2019, Mr. Davis’s Attorney Michael Beckman posits, there is a, “complete misunderstanding of Lawrence,” in this case, let there be no misunderstanding of Lawrence in today's hearing. Bruce Davis’s victims endured unbearable torture, mutilation, suffocation, stabbings, and blunt force trauma. Bruce Davis collectively acted in concert with his so-called family to frame the murder of Gary Hinman on African Americans as a whole and more specifically, to frame the Black Panthers. The family’s racial, the family's racial motives were two-fold to deflect blame of Gary Hinman's murder on Black Panthers and to incite societal upheaval be a racial coercion. These are the very definitions of severe rare, and egregious. These are the facts. In 2016, Governor Jerry Brown and his definitive decision regarding Bruce Davis states, “these crimes rightfully remained seared into the nation's conscious and represent that rare circumstance in which the aggravated nature of the crimes alone is sufficient to deny parole.” That was true then and this hard reality remains true today. The petitioner, the petitioner and his Attorney would have you believe Mr. Davis’s crimes occurred in a vacuum void of any further societal harm and dangerousness. I, I sadly direct the Board to the horrific murders of Vivian French in 1977 and Jason Sweeney in 2003, decades after Bruce Davis, Bruce Davis’s incarceration. Detective Don Ryan describes the crime scene of Vivian French's murder March 7th, 1977, “as I entered the residence, I could hear the pigs are coming song that was playing over and over again. When we walked in, I observed a white female later identified as Vivian French lying on her back. She was nude and I noticed what appeared to be a black handled knife in her right side, just above the breast. I noticed on the wall, there were some things written in blood, Helter Skelter, and all pigs must die.” On May 30th, 2003, Jason Sweeney was murdered by four teenagers ages 15 to 17. The weapons use to massacre the teenager were a hammer, a hatchet, and several large rocks. At one point during the attack, there was a hammer blow so severe that it remained, it remained protruding from Jason’s skull, as he continued to fight for his life. During the trial, the teenage killers testified listening to Helter Skelter over and over repeatedly for several hours before committing the murder. The Prosecuting Attorney Duke Conroy stated, “It is really a main thing that teenagers in Philadelphia Memorial Day weekend are attuned to the whole helter-skelter mythology. It is a sad testament to the twisted, brutal legacy these, those murderers have left behind such that it attracts 15, 16, 17-year-olds over 40 years later, 3000 miles across the country. It is a powerful legacy.” It is critical to note in today's proceedings that three of the convicted teenagers were sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. There will be no misunderstanding of Lawrence in today's hearing. Bruce Davis and his crimes embody the rare, egregious, severe nature as defined in Lawrence and continue to pose a risk to society directly and culturally as illustrated in the brutal murders of Ms. French and Mr. Sweeney. Bruce Davis’s crimes had dealt permanent and enduring wounds to American society. The nexus of current dangerousness, direct, repercussive, cultural is permanent, current and deadly. Regarding Shaputis. In his last two hearings, parole hearings, excuse me. In his last two parole hearings, Mr. Davis goes to great lengths to say he cut Donald Shea, but never stabbed his victim from page one 17 of the 2017 hearing quoting, “inmate Davis, in one of the hearings in, uh, 2010, I told, I told what I did. I said, I cut him. And the Commissioner said, oh no, no, no, you stabbed him. I said, I didn't stab him. He said, yeah, well, you had, you had to stab them. I said, I didn't stab him. And there was a kind of a big deal about that. So, I'm going to just make that clear. Commissioner Fritz, okay. Commissioner, inmate Davis, I didn't stab him. Commissioner Fritz, you want to make, you want to distinguish between stabbing and slashing?” Then on pages 72 and 73 of the 2019 transcript quoting, “inmate Davis, I cut Mr. Shea, Commissioner Anderson, you cut him? Inmate Davis, yes. Commissioner Anderson, with a what? Inmate Davis, with a knife. Commissioner Anderson, where'd you cut him? Inmate Davis, uh, from his collarbone down to his armpit. The Commissioner, was he moving? Inmate Davis, uh, no, he must've been dead. Commissioner Anderson, was he dead? He wasn't moving. So, you cut him? Inmate Davis, yes. It's on the right side. I was standing on his right. Commissioner Anderson, official report said you stabbed him. Did you? Did you stab or did you cut him? Inmate Davis, I cut him.” This clearly is minimization and lacks proper insight into these crimes. Citing Shaputis. Even when an inmate states that his conduct is wrong and that he feels some remorse for the crime, his failure to gain insight and understanding into either his violent conduct or his commission of the commitment of offense provide some evidence in support of the conclusion that the petitioner remains dangerous and is unsuitable for parole.” In re Shigemura, citing Shippuden. In today's hearing, today, I'm sorry. In today's and past hearings, Mr. Davis shares what he identifies as influences specific to a father figure, the lure of women at the ranch, and group of acceptance. Frankly, these are common interests of many, many people throughout the world, but thankfully, very few of these individuals, if any, go out and kill innocent people in a sustained rampage and carve a Swastika on their face. Before I conclude, I must address statements made by Michael Beckman at Mr. Davis’s last hearing June 28th, 2019, “despite having his freedom snatched from him five times he's continued programming well.” That's page 154, lines eight through 10. He then goes on to attack the Governor stating, “if the Governor chooses to play politics with my client's life again, then he's going to do that because my client is a political prisoner at this point, plain and simple.” What’s page 153 lines, one through four. Mr. Davis, I'm sorry. Mr. Davis, even today, when asked, why is he in prison? He said it's because the Governor's feelings towards him were against him. Shockingly, the inmate made no mention of his crimes or how horribly his crime, his victims suffered. This is glaring lack of insight. Does it occur to any of us in this hearing today that Bruce Davis is in prison because he killed people? Plain and simple. Has it occurred at any of us in this hearing today that Mr. Davis remains in prison because his crimes were so severe and profound that they shook our country to its core with permanent repercussions? Plain and simple. Not only are Mr. Beckman's presumptions disingenuous, they are offensive to our families and, and demonstrate an extensive pattern of Attorneys propping up their clients into the role of victim. This deplorable tactic has been perpetuated for decades now and completely lacks any crumb of insight into these crimes. So, if there's any confusion in this matter, let there be none now. The only people who had their freedoms snatched from them are Bruce Davis’s victims, and all victims of Mr. Davis and the so-called Manson family. Regarding, “that was then, this is now.” At Mr. Davis’s last hearing, the inmate asked the Board, “how am I different now than I was 50 years ago?” Well, I ask the same question. Now the two people most impacted by these crimes. Gary Hinman, how are you different now than you were when Bruce Davis held you hostage, drove off in your car, and left you bleeding out, forcing you to endure a death that lasted three days? Donald Shea, how are you different now than you were when Bruce Davis and four other men ambushed you like cowards, then beat, stabbed you to death and mutilated you like a pack of jackals? Commissioners, how is it possible for amends to be made for Bruce Davis when no one on this planet can make amends for his dead? Gary and Donald are just as dead today as they were when they were sent to their graves 53 years ago at the hands of Bruce Davis. Commissioner Stern, Commissioner Garland, I urge you to consider parole for Bruce Davis once you've paroled his victims from their graves, once you healed and corrected the permanent wounds Bruce Davis and his crimes have dealt to American society. Commissioners, as you acknowledged the rare, egregious, aggravated nature of Bruce Davis’s crimes as defined in Lawrence, how horrifically his victims suffered the inmates, minimization and lack of insight into his crimes as cited in Shaputis and the permanent destructive wounds Mr. Davis has, Mr. Davis has dealt with American society, it is proper and just that you determined Bruce Davis unsuitable for release for the longest period of time. I have to finish one thought. I feel obviously great sorrow for the four of us who are directly impacted by the crimes of today's hearing. I extend that sorrow among the four of us, and Mr. Davis himself. I, uh, I'm so sorry that any of this happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Thank you very much. All right. It is 12:18. Uh, Commissioner Stern, and I will, uh, disconnect from the hearing. We will, uh, reconnect when we have our decision. Uh, I would estimate it's at least a half hour or so. Um, so please stay on the, on the hearing and, uh, we'll be back as soon as we can. We can go off the record.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Okay. We're back on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. Thank you. It is 1:52 PM. Thank you all for your patience. These are very important decisions and we wanted to be sure to thoroughly consider them. Uh, Mr. Davis, this is going to be a denial of parole today. Based on the legal standards on the records, we do find that your release would pose an unreasonable risk to public safety, and we therefore found you unsuitable for parole. The evidence that we considered included your central and master files, the Comprehensive Risk Assessment, the transcripts and documents from prior parole proceedings, the documents submitted in the 10-day packet and discussed today, as well as your testimony, the input from the victim's family members and, and representatives, as well as your Attorney. We did not rely on any confidential information in making our decision. In addition to the evidence, we did give special consideration to the elderly parole factors, and I'll explain that below. In making our decision, we are required to consider several factors that are relevant to determining risk. I'm going to go through each of those and explain whether we found them to be aggravating, mitigating, or no impact. Uh, the first thing that we look at was the Comprehensive Risk Assessment. Uh, we do note that the Clinician found that, uh, your risk rating is low, which means that the Psychologist found based on clinical factors that you would pose a non-elevated risk relative to other long-term offenders. The CRA does bear unsuitability for release, but it does not dictate the Panel's decision. And as I will explain below, we do think that there are some, uh, factors that were mentioned in the CRA that remained current. The first factor in the structured decision-making framework is criminal and parole history. We find this to be no impact, meaning it's not aggravating or mitigating. Um, up until your involvement, involvement with the Manson family, you did not have a criminal record, but in 1969, you were arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a minor, vehicle theft, and receiving stolen property. Those charges were dismissed, but you were convicted of receiving stolen property and using a false ID to obtain a firearm. Those are relatively minor. So, they did not impact the decision, the Panel's decision one way or the other. Offender self-control is the next factor that we look at. And we find this to be clearly aggravating. Uh, the crimes were exceptionally callous. You helped and facilitated the murder and torture of Gary Hinman. And soon thereafter, you and other cult members lured Donald Shea into a car, took him to a secluded area where he was stabbed multiple times. In addition to these crimes, at the time of the life crime, you were an influential member of a cult that was intent on killing people for financial gain and with the intention of creating a race war, which ultimately killed nine people and an unborn baby and influenced many other crimes. As you stated today, Manson listened to you, which means that you had an opportunity to stop the dangerous thinking and planning, but you didn't do that. And that is an example that you lacked self-control and that's why that domain is considered aggravating. Now, those, those factors are what we call static or historical. They don't change. And the California Supreme Court has found that after a long period of positive rehabilitation, those factors may not always still show current dangerousness. So, we've definitely, uh, looked to the more dynamic factors or those things that you've done since you came to prison. And some of those are mitigating. Programming is one. Uh, your record demonstrates that you have robustly participated in programs to address your risk factors. I'm not going to read all of them into the record, but I do commend you for that participation and it is clear from your discussion you have learned quite a bit from that programming. Um, and so we do commend you for your rehabilitative efforts on that. Again, I'm not going to read them because they're in the record, but we did consider them. Also mitigating is your institutional behavior. Cannot deny the fact that you have not been involved with violence or rules violations I think since the 1980s, if I'm not mistaken, um, and again, we commend you for that and we understand that those are positive factors that show that you, um, have grown, uh, since you came to prison. The next factor we look at is parole plans. Uh, we thought a lot about this. Uh, we, we ended up, uh, finding this to be a no impact rating as well, meaning it didn't make us, you know, decide one way or the other as to your suitability. We are impressed with many of the plans that you have in place. You do have, uh, plans and, and acceptances to transitional housing. You have a lot of support in the community with, uh, family and, and others who support you in your ministry, your church environment. Um, and you would probably be fine, you know, financial and have that support in the community. We didn't find it mitigating, um, because we are concerned about your interest or even just willingness to speak to church groups or, or others about your, as you call it redemption. That redemption necessarily includes a discussion. It would have to address who you were before you were redeemed, right? Who you were in the Manson family, why you were there, that's talking about that crime. Um, and, and you can't avoid that if you're going to talk about your redemption. Um, you know, as you acknowledge these crimes, and you are notorious. The potential impact of you speaking about yourself and your past and your involvement with the Manson family could not only affect the victim's family, which it clearly would, but it could impact public safety and that others may be inspired to follow a similar path as you. I, we understand as your Counsel pointed out, we're not suggesting you're going on a speaking tour, and you're going to talk all about the Manson family. We understand that. I mean, certainly that would be a concern. That's not our concern. Our concern is this idea that you want to talk about redemption cannot be disconnected from your involvement with the Manson family. And that's the, that's the potential pitfall that we see. Again, it is not a basis for our denial. It is something that we wanted to share with you so you can give some thought to that and whether that's something that you really think is the right idea. The final, uh, domain factor that we consider is offender change. Um, and we find that despite some programming, despite pretty good programming, you do continue to express views that demonstrate the lack of change growth and maturity to the point that it would make you no longer a risk. I'm going to go through some of the examples that we had that we heard from you today and some of the things we've seen in your record to hopefully put some context into why we found that. Um, we started the hearing today talking about the Governor's, or talking about why you were still in prison, right? So, I remember asking you, you know, you've been eligible for release all these times. Why are you still in prison? And you said, because, well, one, you said you had a life sentence, which of course that isn't a reason to be in prison after being, you know, before Board hearings. Right? But you said it was all about the Governor's feelings, the Governor's feelings and thoughts about you. You, I, I even tried to give you hints that this is about you, this isn't about the Governor. This is about you. You're in prison because of you and your lack of growth with insight and empathy is what the Governor recently found. And, and, um, you know, you, you were focused on sort of the external reasons about your current condition, you know, being in prison. Um, and, and that shows a lack of responsibility. It also demonstrates a continued criminal mindset and that you're looking outward for justification for things rather than inward and pro-social people tend to look inward. What have I done? What could I do? What's my responsibilities? But you're looking outward. It's the Governor. It's, it's all about the Governor, politics, whatever it is, it's not, it's about you and whether you would be a danger to the public. So that was a concern. Um, that also ties in with is really, you know, whether you're minimizing your personal responsibility. Um, minimization was another concern of the Governors. Uh, you, you did, there were, there were, you mentioned that you are accepting responsibility, you know, for what you did. And I, and I, I think overall that's true, but there is continued minimization of that. And I'll try to give some examples. Um, uh, you talked about one example. Uh, we asked you about your denial management course. You talked about that as being important and that, you know, that helped you recognize that denial is pointing to others. You know, for reasons why people do things, you know, you use the example, like getting caught up in something or doing it because somebody made you do it. But even in describing that, that's exactly what you're still doing. You're still saying, you know, you said today, I didn't care about anyone. I was caught up in Manson. I wanted his approval. And you even more specifically said that you cut Donald Shea because Manson told you to do it. So those are still things, I mean, you're, you're still in that denial phase of like, it wasn't me, it was Manson. It wasn't, you know, it, I was caught up. I didn't care. I was thoughtless. I was an emotional adolescent. Those are all things that are still minimizing your own responsibility. You also talked about, um, you, you said, and I think I'm putting it correctly. Charlie's fantasy of the race for had nothing to do with me, but then you also later, or even before that, it said that Charlie listens to you. He quoted, I think you said, Charlie listened to me. He liked me. He valued my opinion. Well, if that's the case and you were engaged in all of the things that were being planned and you were involved in everything that was being planned, you know, you're still trying to distance yourself 50 years later from the people that you thought, you put them in a different category with you, you put them in a category that they're the, they're the evil ones, they're the violent ones, they're the killers. You thought you wouldn't get caught. You were willing to do certain things, but you wouldn't do everything that they would do. And that, that somehow makes you less culpable. And it doesn't. It doesn't. It means that you're minimizing the impact of your own actions on society and the victims. Uh, we talked a lot about empathy today. Um, empathy was, or your lack of empathy was something that you focused on as a reason why you could get engaged with the Manson family, get engaged with the things that you were doing. Um, you know, that you, again, you didn't care, you didn't have those feelings, but that lack of empathy came through in a couple of ways today as well, uh, when you were speaking about the redemption, you know, like going out and being able to speak about redemption, you said, and I have to tell you, Mr. Davis, this really kind of shocked me. You said that you thought the victim's family would be good with it. They would think it's fine because, you know, they would want to hear about redemption and about how people can change. I think that's incredibly insensitive. I think that shows that, um, and it's kind of naive. I mean, and again, it's, it's making yourself in a good light when, you know, that's important to you. You want to make yourself in a good light. Like that's good to talk about redemption. Um, but in it's very externally focused. It's not, it's not a sign of, of empathy and understanding. Um, another example of empathy. Again, I was trying to give you opportunities to explain and to show, hey, Governor, you're wrong. I do have empathy. And here's why. I asked you when was a recent time that you felt empathy towards somebody else and you gave an example of, uh, an inmate who, you know, hit his head on a pipe or something. And, and despite my prompting, you still couldn't come up with what that inmate was feeling. You, you defined empathy. But when you talked about what you, you know, how it made you feel it was about yourself. It wasn't about the feelings that that inmate might've had. And, and, and all of this to say, I mean, lack of empathy does not necessarily make a person a danger. We acknowledge that, but the issue is, and the CRA supports this, that your lack of empathy was what made you get involved with the most dangerous cult in history, if not, maybe one of the most. Right? That lack of empathy, the fact that that is still current is related to current dangerousness because it is what made you get involved to begin with. Um, and I do want to note also that the CRA does support this as a concern. Um, the CRA noted, uh, that, or the Clinician found that your insight was fair, but it was not to the point that it was no longer a potential concern. Likewise, the CRA said that you continue to have, “difficulty with empathy, which may disinhibit you to engage in violence.” Those are directly tied to you currently are, and in light of the heinousness and the, the potential that just what that you were involved with, with the Manson family and the crimes that you committed to still lack empathy, and to lack self-awareness of who you are and why you did what you did, it is still related to your current dangerousness. So ultimately, we find, uh, that you do still struggle with the lack of empathy and self-awareness, which are some of the causative factors in your life crime. Uh, I do also want to address the elderly parole factors, and I'll, I'll do this at the same time as talking about the denial length. Um, we are, uh, or we'll be issuing a three-year denial period, which is the minimum time in large part because of your age and your length of incarceration. We do recognize you're 79 years old. You've been in prison for a very long time, over 51 years. Um, I do note that, you know, you do have some health conditions. I will say I was incredibly impressed with your cognitive abilities today. Your memory, your, you know, ability to pay attention is, is remarkable. That is not a problem for you. I, it does sound like your physical condition’s in some ways with your hip replacement have, have helped you. Um, so we don't find that those outweigh the aggravating factors that we looked at, but we do find that they are relevant to determining the length of time until your next hearing. And that is why it's a three-year denial period. Um, and just for the record, we did consider a longer period of time. Uh, but we do find that based on your positive, uh, performance and your institutional behavior, your programming, and you have made progress, I, you know, I think, 2009, you were still denying that you were responsible for any of it, really. So, you have come a long way. Uh, there's just more work to be done. And so, we don't need think of 15- or 10-year denial period isn't necessary for public safety. I'm going to ask, uh, Commissioner Stern for your comments.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STERN: Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. I concur with everything that you've said. Mr. Davis, I think that, uh, the Commissioner laid out very clearly the concerns that we saw today that, that we feel reflect on your, um, risk of future dangerousness. I'm just going to add a couple of small things. I think that, um, and I'm going to make a couple of recommendations. So, there's, uh, when we're, when the Commissioner was talking to you about, um, our concerns about your minimizing of responsibility and, uh, the lack of empathy, which I know have been discussed for years, um, I think there's, there's some more work to be done on understanding that what personality and character traits, and maybe quirks led to you, um, joining this cult and being, and, and you've said a couple of times, you know, you wanted to distance yourself from the bad outcome or from the crime, but you didn't want to get away from Manson. And those, you know, those are things that, that, um, bear some more looking at on your part. Um, I think it indicates some lack of insight and perhaps a minimization of, of your role. So, I would suggest that you take a look at some of that. Um, you have certainly done a lot of, uh, programming and, um, as the Commissioner mentioned, your support letters are numerous, and your institutional behavior has been excellent. I think that there's some more work to be done in perhaps your understanding of how you allowed yourself to commit this kind of a crime. And, um, to that end, we are, excuse me, we are going to recommend that you certainly stay discipline free, earn positive chronos, get self-help. I know you, um, this came up in the hearing that you fairly recently became part of the CCCMS system. So, um, you know, reach out and talk to, uh, whoever's available to you through CCCMS. And, um, I don't have anything else to add. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: All right. With that, the decision is not final. It can be reviewed, reviewed by the Board for up to 120 days, and you'll be notified in writing if there are any changes to the decision. Um, thank you to all of you, Mr. Beckman, and to, uh, Ms. Martley, Ms. Tate, and Mr. DiMaria, uh, thank you all for your participation again, and thank you for your patience. This was a very difficult decision for the Panel and, um, we appreciate you hanging on and until we could, could make that. So, um, with that—

VNOK MARTLEY: (Inaudible) your endeavors really appreciate them.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER GARLAND: Uh, thank you very much, ma'am. Uh, Mr. Davis, we wish you the best, sir. This hearing is adjourned. It's 12:00 PM.