• Bruce Davis • 2017

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: We're on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, we are on the record, and the time is 8:55 a.m. This is for the subsequent parole consideration hearing of Bruce Davis, D-A-V-I-S. CDC number is B41079. Today's date of February 1st, 2017. We're located at the California Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo, California. Mr. Davis was received into the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation on April 21st, 1972, received into the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation for the offenses of murder first, Penal Code Section 187, one count, uh, count two murder first, Penal Code Section 187. This was in the county of Los Angeles, and Mr. Davis received, uh, life term with the possibility of parole. This hearing is being tape recorded. We're going to go around the room and put our names on the record. Please give you name, spell your last name. When we get to you, we're gonna go around, give your CDC number also. Okay?

INMATE DAVIS: All right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, I'm gonna start with myself. Cynthia Fritz, F-R-I-T-Z, Commissioner.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: John Denvir, D-e-n- V-I-R, Deputy Commissioner.

INMATE DAVIS: Bruce Davis, B41079.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Spell your last name.

INMATE DAVIS: D-A-V-I-S.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Michael Beckman, B-E-C-K-M-A-N, attorney for Mr. Davis.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Donna Lebowitz, L-E-B-O-W-I-T-Z, Deputy District Attorney for Los Angeles County.

MS. TATE: Debra Tate, T-A-T-E, Henman (phonetic) family spokesperson.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you.

MS. MARTLEY: Kay Hinman Martley, M-A-R-T-L-E-Y.

MS. ARNTSON: Amy Arntson, A-R-N-T-S-O-N, case records technician, victim's advocate.

MS. HOGG: Shannon Hogg, Associate Chief Deputy Commissioner, observing the hearing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. We also have two correctional officers present for security purposes only. Mr. Davis, can you please raise your right hand so that I can swear you in? Mr. Davis, do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. I will also note, um, that you meet the requirements under elderly parole, so this hearing will be h -- um, held under the elderly parole considering, giving special consideration to your age, the amount of time that you've been in prison, and any medical conditions that you have. All right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Understand that? Okay, so let's start with, um, seeing if you need any accommodations under the Americans With Disabilities Act, so I'm gonna ask you some questions. Um, I see that you have an eyeglass case, so do you have your eyeglasses with you?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And they're working okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, they are.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, can you hear me?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I can.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Any problems walking?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, I'll note for the record that Mr. Davis walked into the hearing room without assistance today. Are you triple CMS or EOP?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Are you taking any psychotropic medications?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Any medication for any medical reason?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, what are you taking?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I'm taking something for prostate, uh, cholesterol, um, aspirin, um, Tylenol.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And so what are they for? What are the different -- diff --

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, Tylenol for discomfort. I have a -- a hip that's out of joint.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh, the, uh, prostate medication is for that, prostate. The, uh, aspirin is for some kind of heart -- for a heart medication. And, uh, the cholesterol medication is for cholesterol.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. Any other medical issues?

INMATE DAVIS: No. Well, uh, the doctor -- well --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Go ahead.

INMATE DAVIS: The d, uh -- the doc said I have, uh, some emphysema.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And when did you find that out?

INMATE DAVIS: Years ago.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, okay. So you've known for a while?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Cause you any problems?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, uh, I -- I don't have as much wind as I used to.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. I mean, you don't -- you don't have inhalers or anything like that?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I don't -- I haven't had those.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You don't take any medication for it?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, any other medical conditions that we haven't discussed?

INMATE DAVIS: None that I can think of.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, what's the last grade in school that you completed before you came to prison?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was in -- I was in the university for a year.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so what? Community college, uh, four-year --

INMATE DAVIS: University --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- college?

INMATE DAVIS: -- of Tennessee.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so you completed high school, one year of college. Any further schooling?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And what is it?

INMATE DAVIS: I've had a lot of correspondence courses. I f -- I finished my bachelor's degree and, uh, postgraduate work.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. What'd you get your bachelor's in?

INMATE DAVIS: Art, bachelor -- BA.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. And post, um, what'd you get?

INMATE DAVIS: I got a, uh, PhD in, uh, philosophy of religion.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, and that was while you were incarcerated in prison?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, lemme just, I'm lookin' at the DECS and 1073, um, and let's see what it says. 12.9 TABE score. Does that sound right? It's the highest you can get.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Eyeglasses. It says you have a cane. Do you have your cane?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No?

INMATE DAVIS: I had it for a little while when I had my hip replaced.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but you don't use one anymore?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You don't need a cane?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No, okay. All right. So I have, um, eyeglass -- eyeglasses. Any other accommodations that you need to go forward with the hearing today?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No? Mr. Beckman?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: I agree.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so that'll be the accommodation for the hearing today. Um, let's go through Notice of Hearing Rights.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Commissioner, we'll stipu -- well, with the exception of the objections that I raised to the Comprehensive Risk Assessment, we'll stipulate that his hearing rights have been met.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, thank you. And I will just note that -- yes?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: We cannot hear Mr. Beckman. I would like to -- we're so far away back here. If he could please speak up a little louder so that we can hear what he has to say.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: He'll try. I understand that he's ill right now, and he's having difficulty speaking, so --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: I'll do the best I can.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, so, uh, Mr. Davis, um, just so that we have it on the record, it looks like, um, you received a packet of forms about today's hearing, correct?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did you review the forms and sign them?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And included in that was your Notice of Hearing Rights form, the BPH --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- 1002 --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- form. Do you recall that?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, um, any preliminary objections, Mr. Beckman?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Um, Commissioner, I think I'm gonna reserve my objections. I'll j -- I'll just quickly put an objection on the record to the use of Proposition 9 or Marsy's Law. We know it's gonna be used today, but there is a -- I believe there's a petition of certiorari pending with the United States Supreme Court, so I'll just say that the use of Proposition 9, or Marsy's Law, violates the Ex Post Facto Clauses of the United States Constitution for the reasons set forth in the US District Court's 2014 opinion in Gilman versus Brown.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, thank you.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: With reg -- I'm sorry, with regard to confidential information, it doesn't look like there's anything gonna be used, but I'll request that if you do decide to use it at any time that you allow me to put an objection out at that time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Sure. So as far as your first objection, it will be overruled at this time. It's currently the law in California. As far as the confidential information, if we use any -- if we use any of the confidential information, we'll let you know before we publish that information so that you can make objections at that time.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Any other objections?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: No, that's it for now.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so let's go through, um, how it's gonna work today, Mr. Davis. I know you've had parole hearings before, so, um -- but lemma explain how it's gonna happen today. It's gonna be a little bit different because you're here on a governor reversal, right? You've had two prior grants.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Four.

INMATE DAVIS: Four.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I'm sorry, four, uh, four prior grants, um, two with Governor Brown, correct?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Three.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Three, oh, three. Okay. Um, so the thing is, um, you know, normally we go through pre-conviction factors, post-conviction factors and parole plans. We are still gonna go through those portions of the hearing; however, um, the focus really is gonna be on the governor's letter and the concerns that he has. Um, so that's where, uh, you know, a lot of the questions are gonna come from, so we're not gonna go in the normal order where we go through background and, you know, the rap sheet and then the murders, and then we get into post-conviction and the risk assessment and the parole plans. Um, so we might be jumping around a little bit because where -- that's where the focus is gonna be on this particular hearing, okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, but we will -- we are gonna be going through all of those areas. Um, and then, um, once we get through all of the areas, um, and we do go through the, um, the most recent letter, the most recent reversal letter, um, then, after we've asked all of our questions, then we're gonna hand it over to the District Attorney's office for clarifying questions, your attorney can then ask questions. Once all of the questioning is done, we're gonna ask for closing statements from the District Attorney, from your attorney, and from yourself if you wanna make a closing statement.

INMATE DAVIS: All right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, and then once that's completed, then we're gonna hand it over to the victim's family members and representatives so they can come up and make their impact statements. Okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And I, um, I don't think I need to admonish you because I didn't notice that there were any issues, but there's no contact with the victim's next of kin. I'm sure you're aware of that, correct?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Everything's supposed to be directed at the board. Okay. All right, um, okay. Once that's completed and once the, um, victim's family members, representatives have made their impact statements, then we are gonna take a break. We are gonna -- the two panel members will go in del -- what's called deliberations, we'll, um, discuss you case, and then we're gonna come back, and we'll give you a decision today. All right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so do you have any questions on how it's gonna work today?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No. Okay. So, um, hearing's being tape recorded.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Uh, we need a clear record, so, um, there will be times that you might see us correcting you, and it's usually for the following reasons. It's usually for, we're talking over each other, and then the -- we can't pick it up on the recording. Two, you're not giving audible answers, like you're shaking your head, or some people use their hands, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So we -- and so then it won't -- your testimony won't show up. So that's usually what, um, we're correcting you about, so I just want you to be aware of that ahead of time.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay? You don't need to make any admissions today. You don't need to discuss the details of your crime today. That'll be up to you and your attorney whether you wanna discuss the crimes. All right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: If you need a break at any time or if anybody else needs a break at any time, let us know, because sometimes the hearing's get lengthy, okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yeah. All right. Um, any questions so far on how it's gonna work?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. Let me ask the attorneys. Mr. Beckman, did you receive the documents, 10-day, 65-day?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Did you receive all the documents?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. Um, any further documents that you wanna submit that we haven't received.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Um, I don't think so, but I'm gonna reserve just in case.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Commissioner Fritz, I just would like to say, though, that the, uh, C-file was present on WatchDox, and sometime in the middle of January, it just disappeared off of washd -- WatchDox.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: And, um, Tara Doetsch put it back, I think yesterday -- what's today, Wednesday? She put it back on Monday, but it was off for at least a few days --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: -- so I just wanted to make that clear.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So you have access to it now?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I have access to it now, but I did not for a few days.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: For a few days?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. Thank you. Okay, so, um, do you have any d -- uh, do you have any questions before we get started with the substance of the hearing?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I don't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So let's get started. Um, I am gonna just briefly put a brief summary of your background before I start asking you questions about the governor's letter, okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, how old were you when you came into prison?

INMATE DAVIS: 28.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. You're 70, what, 4 now?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. So, um, but if -- so if you think there are things that are important, though, about this summary, um, let us know, because the point of it is to kind of figure out why you came to prison, right? If there was anything in your background that led you to be involved in what you were involved in, to be involved in the murders. So if you think there's something significant in your background that we did not put on the record that you think might be a causative factor of your crime or in some way, um -- in some way was p -- part of it, then let us know so that it can be placed on the record.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay? All right. It looks like you were born in Louisiana? Um, you stated that you felt secure when you were younger. You felt like you were material -- materially secure as well. Um, you said that your father raised you the way -- your father raised him the way he raised me.

INMATE DAVIS: Um, what -- what I meant was my father raised me the way his father raised him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. That's what I figured, but --

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Um, you said you felt loved by your mother. Um, you didn't feel loved by your father?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Your father was a welder. He passed away in 1968 from a stroke. Your mother passed away in 1992. Is there anybody outside of prison that you have contact with?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And who's that?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, my sister. Uh, I have an aunt. I have, uh, friends I'm in contact with.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Where does your sister live?

INMATE DAVIS: Valley, North Carolina.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How about your aunt?

INMATE DAVIS: Mobile, Alabama.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how about your friends?

INMATE DAVIS: Some in, well, one in San -- San Diego area, LA area, uh locally.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Locally meaning what?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, Arroyo --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: San Luis Obispo?

INMATE DAVIS: -- Grande. Arroyo Grande --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, um-hm.

INMATE DAVIS: -- uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, are these friends that you had before you came to prison?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, not in California.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: They were friends from where?

INMATE DAVIS: From since I've been in.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Since you've -- okay, so they were not friends that you had prior to prison.

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You've had friends since you've been in. And so how did you meet these friends?

INMATE DAVIS: Correspondence.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Correspondence? So are they groupies or what? I mean, are they -- I mean, I have to ask -- I mean --

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- are they people that are interested in becoming friends with you because of the crime that you committed?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No. Okay?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I -- I'm --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean --

INMATE DAVIS: -- I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- you get -- you get correspondence like, don't you?

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I hear, yes, I do. So I know what you mean.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, I'm -- I'm glad you know what I mean. So that's why I'm asking.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Are these friends that are -- are interested in you because of the crimes that you committed?

INMATE DAVIS: The people I write to now?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yes.

INMATE DAVIS: No, they were not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: They are not or they were not?

INMATE DAVIS: Were not, are not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. But you met them through correspondence while in prison?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How many friends are we talking about?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, let's see. Uh, one, two, three, four, five, six, maybe half a dozen.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Maybe half a dozen. How often do you speak with them?

INMATE DAVIS: I write periodically to my friends in San Diego, um, maybe every month, every two months. Uh, my friends in, um -- uh, Arroyo Grande, we write back and forth, I don't really keep track of how much, probably -- maybe once a month, twice a month.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I have some friends in Montebello, who was, uh, an ex-inmate now. He's been out for, I think, five years, and we -- we -- we talk on the phone, he and his wife.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so do they send support letters, or do we have their names --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- and addresses - -

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, you --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- on file --

INMATE DAVIS: -- have some.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So we'll go -- we'll go through those. All right. Um, okay. How often do you hear from your sister and aunt?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, probably hear from my sister once or twice a month.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: My aunt a little less.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Any visits from anybody?

INMATE DAVIS: Not in a long time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Not in a long time. A significant --

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- other --

INMATE DAVIS: -- I can't -- I shouldn't say that. Somebody -- I had a visit from a f -- uh, a fellow inmate has a -- a sponsor, and he -- his father was coming, so he says, hey, why don't -- let's -- I want my sp -- you can visit with my sponsor while I visit with my dad --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- because he met his dad, so -- so I had a visit with him the last couple weeks.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Do you have a significant other?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No. All right, it looks like, um, you would get -- as far as discipline was concerned in your house, you would get spankings. You felt you -- like you were abused. You felt like you were verbally abused by your father?

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. He would curse at you. It looks like he would kick you on the side of the foot --

INMATE DAVIS: That's with the side of his foot.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Side of his foot. It wasn't painful, it was humiliating to you. You said that you were sexually abused when you were 14?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You were sodomized by a person that you thought was a friend of yours, who was he -- was it a he or she?

INMATE DAVIS: He.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Of course. That makes sense. When he -- when he was in his 20s and you were 14?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, you didn't tell anybody until you were married. Um, and then you - - the same thing happened with a schoolteacher?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: When you were in eighth grade?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So how old were you when -- cause if you're 14, you're usually in eighth or ninth grade, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was, um, I was in the eighth grade in 1956, 57. I was born in 42. So whatever that words out.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So then the next year, you were sodomized by an eighth grade teacher?

INMATE DAVIS: That's the teacher we're talkin' about, this one, yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Um, and did, uh, either of the -- did the sexual abuse affect you in any way?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: In what way?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, um, it affected my self- awareness, it affected how I thought about myself. It affected how -- my self-image, I guess is a simple way to say it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how about the -- what you describe as the verbal abuse from your father? Did that affect you in any way?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: In what way did it affect you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, because he -- he -- he said God damn you, I grew up feeling damned by God.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What? Did you come from a religious family?

INMATE DAVIS: Not particularly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So?

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Then, I'm just sayin', why would that, why did you feel da -- I mean, if you weren't -- if you didn't come from a religious family, did that really mean anything to you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it certainly -- I had some concept of God. My family wasn't religious religious, but --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You didn't go to church or anything?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, uh, from time to time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: So I had some idea of it, and I -- I felt that that was a pretty important area to be damned in -- by God.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, even though your family wasn't really that religious?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it was -- it didn't really have anything to do with my family, it just had to do with how I felt.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. And so you -- since your father said, what, God damn you, you felt you were damned by God?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, and it -- it was more than once. It was a big habit with him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well there's a lot of people that use foul language.

INMATE DAVIS: Well that's -- there --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right?

INMATE DAVIS: -- there certainly are.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So, I mean. Okay. The -- uh, you thought it was directed at you.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I certainly did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Anything else? Any other types of -- anything else that your father did that you affected you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, he, uh, he commented on my ability to -- to do things -- to be useful. Um, can't you do anything right, uh, you should do that better, you should do that quicker, uh, you should be more attentive, things like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Maybe he was just trying to help you.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I'm sure he was in his own way.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right. Okay. All right. Um, looks like there was some rule breaking, I guess, when you were younger. You stole some candy, some underage drinking and speeding. Made some false claims on your insurance around age 22 or 23?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: For what, car insurance? What type --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: For what, just for a fake accident or something or fake injuries?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, things -- I -- I lied about something bein' stolen from my car.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, okay. Wh -- why, just so you could get the money?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What'd you need the money for?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I wanted -- I wanted the -- the upgraded parts that I lied about bein' stolen.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well why didn't you get a job and make some money.

INMATE DAVIS: I had a job.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You -- you had a job. Okay, what were you doing?

INMATE DAVIS: There was just -- there was no, um -- there was no good reason for doing it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So you had a job, you're making money. Apparently you hadn't made enough to get the new parts?

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So then you just lied --

INMATE DAVIS: I lied about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- about it. Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Yep, I -- I thought I could get 'em cheaper by doin' this than workin' for 'em.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you know, all right, I -- I get that, but most people wouldn't do that, right?

INMATE DAVIS: No they wouldn't, thankfully.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Wouldn't, um, perpetrate insurance fraud.

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So what is it about you at that time in your life that made it okay for you to do somethin' like that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I thought I could get away with it. Uh, I didn't feel any, uh, restraint about doing it at the time. So I felt like, why not? I -- I did it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean but -- okay, but most people probably could get away with it, or they might, and --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- they wouldn't do it, though. That's what I'm --

INMATE DAVIS: I know it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- trying to say is that a lot people --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I had a criminal mentality.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You had what?

INMATE DAVIS: I had a criminal mind.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, and why -- that's what I'm trying to get at.

INMATE DAVIS: I thought it was okay to steal.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And why -- why did you think that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well I felt -- I felt like it was all right to do it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I don't really understand --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well, I'm just trying to figure our, well, like, did people steal in your family, so it was accepted in your family or was it just that you were that type of person that felt like you could just steal and get away with it without --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I think -- I think one of the things that gave me, uh -- uh, that attitude but was my -- my dad, um, although he was -- he had a good job and work, his friends were -- were bootleggers in east Tennessee. This is the 50s, and he would be with them, and they would -- and so he was always tellin' -- his attitude was, like, if you can get away with it, it's fine, just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- don't get caught.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: So -- so it was like -- and he had no respect for -- he had no respect for authority, and so I -- I -- I caught that attitude.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, um, looks like -- I guess there was some -- you set some fire. You say semi on purpose.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, some fr --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What did that mean?

INMATE DAVIS: -- well, I was about in the sixth grade I think. Some friends of mine, we were in a -- were in an old building smoking, and somebody said, somebody's coming, and we said, okay, put out your cigarettes. Well, they didn't get all put out, so the - - the on purpose part, we were smoking in the place we shouldn't have been --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- and the accident was they didn't get put out.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, it looks like you liked -- at some point you liked school, cause you started doing well in school.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Graduated, um, I mean, I guess in high school your grades went down, but you never had any learning disabilities --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- or anything like that. Um, never -- didn't really skip school. Some suspensions but -- one. No, uh -- never expelled. Graduated from high school. Attended college in the community for a couple years sporadically. Was that, you said University of Tennessee?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. So, um, you're still livin' in Tennessee at this point, right? When you graduated from high school and you're - -

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- going --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- to college.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. Um, when did you get married? How old were you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well I got married in 85, so that made me 50-something.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Married before you came to prison?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Any children?

INMATE DAVIS: One daughter.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And do you have contact with her?

INMATE DAVIS: Not very well.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Who's her mother?

INMATE DAVIS: Beth Davis.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, that was your --

INMATE DAVIS: My wife.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- wife. Um, all right, so do you know where she's at?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Where's she at?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, Grover Beach.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You don't have contact with her or talk with her?

INMATE DAVIS: She doesn't write. I hear about her, but --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Through who?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, through her church. Church people.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, okay. Uh, Beth, is she alive?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, did the marriage end?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And why did it end?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, we had -- I was found suitable in a -- in 2010. Um, we started having difficulties, uh -- uh, points of view. Uh, I think the -- the possibility of me gettin' out was kind of hitting home. Um, we just started fallin' apart.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. No other marriages, right?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, how'd you end up in California?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, came out to California first in, uh, well in 62, 63. Um, some friends of mine were at school, and -- and I had a -- I had a job offer in Santa Fe Springs.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So how old were you?

INMATE DAVIS: In 64 I was 22.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: 22. Okay. Um, had a job here, came out here, and were you here up until age 28?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, yes, I was, uh -- uh, until 66, so from 64, 65, 66, then, uh, came back -- I was here in 67, 68. Yeah, I was in California mostly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Have any problems with drugs or alcohol before prison?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, drugs.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. What type of drugs?

INMATE DAVIS: LSD.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How much -- how much were you doin'?

INMATE DAVIS: It's hard to say.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Wh -- I mean, you're smilin'. I don't think --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- it's funny, but --

INMATE DAVIS: No, I -- I'm just thinking, well how much. You know, uh, way too much. I'd say that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So that means something different to different people, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, how much - -

INMATE DAVIS: Well, here -- here's --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- how much acid were you dropping --

INMATE DAVIS: -- what --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- back then?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it was measured in micrograms, and some of the -- some of the doses were in hundreds or thousands of micrograms.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how often were you doin' it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well in 65 when I first started, it was not very often, cause I was still working, and, uh, so I d -- I maybe once a month, maybe twice. Um, just -- it just depended on the occasion, the availability, what was happening.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, and then did --

INMATE DAVIS: Um.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- it escalate, deescalate or what?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, what really began to escalate was my -- my -- my thinking about things.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, well let's focus, though, on the drug use. We'll -- we can get into that.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay, okay --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I wanna know --

INMATE DAVIS: -- um --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- I just -- I wanna know by the time you hit 28 were -- what were -- what drugs were you doing if you were doing any?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, by then we were smoking -- I w -- I was with -- I had met Manson (phonetic) by then. It was marijua -- it was marijuana and LSD basically.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how often?

INMATE DAVIS: Weekly, daily, uh, you know, sometimes it would be available for three or four days in a row. There would -- there would be marijuana, and then sometimes it would not be available for a long time. And then sometimes there would be a -- a lot of LSD for a few -- for a few days.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And then -- then for a while there wouldn't be, so it was sporadic.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, and w - - were y -- I mean, were you the one buyin' it, or was it being given to you?

INMATE DAVIS: It was being given to us.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. By who?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, uh, Manson had it. Um, sometimes, uh, the other one -- the other people would procure it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. You would never pro -- procure it yourself?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I never did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Were you a drug addict?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. I'd say -- I'd say I had -- certainly had addictive behaviors.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And drug of choice?

INMATE DAVIS: Marijuana.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Marijuana? All right, and why -- so why do you think your drug use, I mean even though you're saying that it was sporadic but it escalated, why would -- why did it escalate?

INMATE DAVIS: It seems to have, uh, the effect of it seems to diminish over time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Effect of the marijuana or the LSD?

INMATE DAVIS: Both. And -- and, uh -- especially marijuana. But -- so you need mo -- you want more because you're not getting the same effect. So you want more. So you take more to get -- to get some kind of effect.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, and why were you a drug addict?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was medicating myself. I -- I was trying to fix myself. Now, at the time I didn't see it that way, I thought -- I thought I was just having fun, that's how I might have put it, but I see now that, um, I was -- I was sad, isolated, I felt alone, um, felt bad about my life and not able to deal with it in an actual way, and taking drugs just got rid of that feeling.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but you didn't start taking drugs until 65?

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you were what, 24?

INMATE DAVIS: 23.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: 23? Okay. So everything was fi -- I mean -- not everything was fine, but as far as drugs, you weren't -- you weren't doin' 'em in high school, while you in college. Came out to California, started working, still not using any drugs.

INMATE DAVIS: Nope.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Uh, working. There was any -- no problems with work?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No? What type of work?

INMATE DAVIS: I was working in a welding shop.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And then all of a sudden at age 23 you started using drugs?

INMATE DAVIS: That's what happened. Um -- um, a guy at work asked me one day, he said, hey, you wanna smoke a joint?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Now, I knew what that meant, but I'd never done it, and I said, yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And that's -- that was the beginning.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, and h - - so you -- how long were you -- were you welding up until age 28?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, I was working at the welding sh -- I -- I did that until 64, 65, 66, uh, and then I went to work for the Department of Commerce and went on a surveying job.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, um, the -- all of 66, the rest of 66 and 67, I came back out to LA and, uh, went back to work on a pipe -- on a pipeline and was working in welding.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you were working pretty much the whole time?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Up until what point?

INMATE DAVIS: 1968, um, when I first got arrested. Um, I think it was in March, I don't know -- I don't know the rap sheet, but it was -- I think it was the spring of 68, um --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Making good money?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, good enough, makin' --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No problems?

INMATE DAVIS: -- a livin'.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No problems at work?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. So you're able to keep a job, no problems at work, doin' some drugs. Um, no problems paying, no financial issues, you could pay your rent or whatever.

INMATE DAVIS: And my rent.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Um, all right, so then -- I'm trying to figure out then h -- how you got acquainted with Manson and got yourself involved in two murders and then, you know, was aware of all the rest of the murders goin' on.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, well, I was, um -- I was smoking marijuana, even while I'm working, and so I, um, but -- I'd drive to Topanga Canyon on the weekends, and that was sort of a hippy place in LA, and, um -- so I -- I had some -- some guys I had met said, hey, let's go -- we're gonna score some -- some marijuana.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how old were you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it was in 1968, so it made me 26.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: 26. Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Maybe. Well, I was 25 at that time, but that was before my birthday. So, um, we, uh - - we got in the car, drove down to Malibu, stopped at a liquor store and got rousted by the, uh, Malibu Sheriffs, and, um, I got arrested for possession of marijuana, and I didn't have any, and I knew that -- I knew my -- I knew I didn't have any, but I did ten days in -- in the jail for -- for possession. I -- I got f - - finally the charges were dropped because there was no evidence, but during that time, I had a -- a very bad experience bein' -- I'd never been in jail before, so during those ten days, I was really -- I was -- I had -- I saw and heard things that I'd never expected to happen in life --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What?

INMATE DAVIS: -- in jail.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: At LA -- at LA --

INMATE DAVIS: LA County.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- CJ? At LA county jail?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Like what?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I mean, just the -- the attitudes of people, the, uh -- the language that was going on. The abuse of one people -- one person over --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You heard language before with you father?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I tell you what, though, when you hear it by the hundreds and -- and, uh -- it was just the attitude and, uh, and the way things, I don't know -- it was very shocking.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Plus, I took on a very victim role because I hadn't -- I wasn't in possession of any drugs, and -- and when I got arrested, I -- I -- I felt like a victim, and even though I was tryin' to buy drugs, I technically didn't have any when -- when I was arrested. So I sat in jail for ten days, and I really -- I stewed on that, and I just -- I felt -- I felt full -- I was full of resentment, anger, all kinds of things in my mind, and I was -- and -- and I was directing that at the system.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Right? For -- for treating me that way. And I made a decision, very unfortunate, that I would never support it again. I would never support the system that did this to me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you support them before?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I paid my taxes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you weren't gonna pay taxes anymore.

INMATE DAVIS: I wasn't gonna -- I wasn't gonna work -- I wasn't gonna do anything.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: For being in county jail for ten days?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, now ten days is really not a big deal, but the first time it happened, it was like a watershed event, and it was quite a shock. Plus, I had -- you know I -- I know that -- that the buildup of -- of the drugs in my life for two or three years had -- had changed my thinking a lot -- had degraded my thinking ability about morality at least.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. It just sounds to me like an excuse, right? Because, I mean, you felt entitled, really --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- because you weren't actually caught with marijuana, and they got you on possession, but before that you felt entitled, too --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- because of the insurance fraud. I mean, there's some reason why, which I don't know yet, that you had this attitude. I mean, you might have worked, and you were making a living, and you were doing well, but you felt entitled to do things that you wanted to do, like the insurance fraud and now this, you go into county jail for ten days, and then you're, like, really, I'm not gonna work, I'm not gonna pay taxes cause, and so there's something more to it than you just want to mess with the system cause the system messed with you. There's something more about you, and that's what I'm trying to figure out that would go to such an extreme for something that, frankly --

INMATE DAVIS: Well.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- is not --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I hear ya. It's -- you know, when I -- when I look back at it, I go, what -- where -- what was I thinking?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So what was it? What was -- what were the character defects going on in your -- in --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, my character defects. Okay, I felt like I was -- I felt like that -- wh -- when -- it was between my dad and me, that he -- he treated me badly. Uh, and he never said I'm sorry, he never said that was wrong, he never gave me any kind of apology, he never said anything to say I didn't do this right, but he was always on me to do better, to not -- to make him happy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Like probably, I'm not trying to diminish it, like many other fathers in the 50s.

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, I'm sorry, I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Like, that's pretty common.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I'm not saying it wasn't, but it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- but I didn't know all the other fathers, and -- and, I hear ya, I mean --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So let's talk about your character defects, cause we're -- you're talkin' about your dad.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, that's not your character defects. I'm tryin' to figure out. I get that you -- that your dad -- your relationship with your father affected you tremendously --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: It sounds like it.

INMATE DAVIS: It did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But I wanna know about you -- what your character defects were that led you to have this attitude?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, my character defects was that I didn't know myself. I thought that I was -- I should have had better than I got. I felt entitled. Uh, I made up for my, um -- I tried to make up for myself by bein' arrogant, by tryin' to be somebody that would be -- I felt unimportant, so I tried to make up by being important or doing things so I'd feel -- so other people would approve of me. My -- one of my big character defects was that I -- I wanted other people's approval to be okay with myself.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't have a strong idea of my own self.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. So then you just decided ten days in county jail, I'm done with it, I'm not gonna work, I'm not gonna pay taxes --

INMATE DAVIS: I'm just gonna drop out.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You're gonna drop out.

INMATE DAVIS: That -- that was the -- kind of the expression of the day.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you dropped out.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: When you got outta jail for ten days.

INMATE DAVIS: After that, I came back to Topanga Canyon, and, uh, unfortunately, I met Charlie Manson.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And so how old were you at the time?

INMATE DAVIS: 25.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: 1968?

INMATE DAVIS: Um-hm.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: When you met him?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Well you probably met a lot of people in Topanga Canyon, right? Cause if it was a hangout --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So did you meet a lot of different people there?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so then what attracted you to Manson? Well, all the girls that -- that were livin' with Charlie. That was the thing. Um, one of the guys I got busted with said, hey, I -- I need to take this old -- he said this old crazy guy that lives up on the hill, uh, a big crosscut saw. He said, I borrowed this saw -- he was gonna saw some wood -- so I'm gonna take it back, so give me a ride. So I -- I had a car -- so I drove him to, uh, up in Topanga Canyon, and, um, that's where -- where Manson was living with five or six of the girls.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And when I saw that, and he said come on in and, um, have a seat and started talkin' to me and -- and I looked around at that, I thought, boy, this is all right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So --

INMATE DAVIS: It was the women, that's what turned --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: It was the women - -

INMATE DAVIS: -- me on.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- that --

INMATE DAVIS: That's what --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- attracted you - -

INMATE DAVIS: -- that was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- to Manson.

INMATE DAVIS: -- the big attraction.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. I guess you didn't completely drop out cause you kept your car, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I -- I did need transportation.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, right. Things that you needed, you kept.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Things that didn't serve you, you dropped.

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so, um -- and did you hang around with him for the entire time, or --

INMATE DAVIS: We -- I stayed -- I didn't leave. I stayed there that night, and we stayed, and, um, we were all together for probably a month.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh, then, uh, they moved to Spahn Ranch. There was the move to Spahn Ranch. We was there for maybe a few days, and, um, uh, Manson said we have to leave here. I didn't know -- no (inaudible) explained why except we can't stay here, and so I said okay, and I was kind of -- I wanted to stay, but I -- I -- I left and went up to Mendocino for a while and then back to Tennessee. And that's when my dad passed away.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you're with him for about a month and a few days --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Go to Mendocino for what?

INMATE DAVIS: Couple of days, just -- just -- just hitchhiked up north --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- to northern California, then -- then -- then hitchhiked back to Tennessee.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then your father passes away.

INMATE DAVIS: And then I was -- I was there from -- I got there probably in June or July, and he passed away in August or July, August of 68.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Um, I took some of the -- some of the money that he left. My mom and sister were trying to work it all out, and so I -- I -- I -- they gave me some of the money. I went to Europe, and I was over there till the next year.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So then he gave you an -- an inheritance.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yes? How much?

INMATE DAVIS: Couple thousand dollars.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you go to Europe and then --

INMATE DAVIS: So I -- I went to uh -- went to Europe, stayed till the next spring, came back, and, uh, sadly got back in touch with Charlie.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. What were you doin' in Europe and, just, you weren't workin' or --

INMATE DAVIS: No, no, just travelling.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Just travelling.

INMATE DAVIS: Went to Spain. Lived, uh -- lived down south.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then spent your inheritance, I guess.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Then went up to England, worked up there for a while, got involved.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you worked --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- to get about, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. I -- I -- well I -- it wasn't -- I went to work with a scientologist of all things.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But you worked?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. I worked -- I worked at the, uh -- I worked at their, uh -- their organization.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So what happened to this whole, I'm not gonna work, I'm not gonna -- I'm not gonna pay my -- work, pay my taxes and --

INMATE DAVIS: Well this was in -- this was in England that --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So it's --

INMATE DAVIS: -- I was working.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- different there?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, the -- the -- the -- the thing was there, it was -- it was this -- the Scientology organization, and I was workin' for them.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Were you, I mean, did you prescribe to Scientology at the time, or were you just working for 'em?

INMATE DAVIS: Not really.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well, you put your hand goin' like --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: (inaudible)

INMATE DAVIS: -- when -- when I say that. Here -- here's what was good about it. It was a party. It was a very party atmosphere. The, uh -- the philosophy of it was pretty unbelievable, but boy, the people were really nice, and I liked that. So I stayed there with 'em.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And you worked and you partied?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Until the spring of 69.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then what brought you -- brought you back to the United States?

INMATE DAVIS: Came back home.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But why? If you're having a good time partying with (inaudible) --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it lost its romance after a while. You know, everything -- it just didn't last. It just got old.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And then, so you don't go back to Tennessee to see your family, you go back --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I went back to Mobile.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh, I was talkin' to my mom and my aunts who lived there, and, uh, I was there for a few days, a week, I don't remember exactly how long. Then I -- then I went back to LA.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how'd you get in chuh -- in touch with Manson again?

INMATE DAVIS: Called him on the phone.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you had his phone number, and you kept --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- in touch.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Were you keeping in touch the entire time?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No? You --

INMATE DAVIS: -- but I did have the phone number.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You had his phone number? Okay. And so what drew you back to get in touch with him?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, what -- the attraction, you know, when I first met Charlie, um, he's the first man that I ever felt that I wanted something from. In other words, he had -- he had -- he had talent. He could play music. He had -- he had talent with, um, just physical things, right? The way he could juggle, and I was attracted to that. And -- and -- and plus, he -- he had what seemed to me was, like, control, especially with the girls. Well I was attracted to that, because that was something that I liked --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you liked --

INMATE DAVIS: -- I wanted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- that he played music, that he juggled, that he had the girls, and he had control.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, and drugs, and he had -- and there was the drugs and -- and -- and, plus he treated me like an equal.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did he treat everybody like that?

INMATE DAVIS: I'm not sure about everybody. Uh, yeah, I'd say -- I'd say, yeah -- I'd say yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What do you mean by control?

INMATE DAVIS: Well when he -- the girls did exactly what he wanted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And -- and ever since I went through these couple of experiences in the -- when I was in the six -- seventh and eighth grade, uh, my, uh -- my reaction to the sexual abuse was I somehow had to prove to myself that I wasn't a homosexual, and so I became very active with women.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but --

INMATE DAVIS: And it was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- then if that's --

INMATE DAVIS: -- kind of --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- if that's the case, which I can -- from -- from your report it looks like that, but then why would you hang out with a guy who had all the women? I mean, because if you had no problems getting women, and they were attracted to him and he controlled them, wh -- what was in it for you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, they were -- I thought they were attracted to me, too.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, you thought they were attracted to you, too?

INMATE DAVIS: Because that's -- that was part of -- that was part of Manson's thing is that when he wanted guys, the girls just go after the guys, and -- and the men were -- were -- had all the sexual favors from the -- from the -- from the girls.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So when you first hung out with him for the month and three days or so, what was the philosophy of the whole gr -- you guys were just hangin' out partying or what -- what --

INMATE DAVIS: It -- it was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- was there anything more --

INMATE DAVIS: -- it was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- to it than that?

INMATE DAVIS: -- it was just peace and love and music and -- and -- and -- and drugs and sex and -- just a party.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how were you managing to sustain yourself during that time period?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was drawing unemployment.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You were drawing unemployment.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, um --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you didn't want to contribute the government, but you'd let the government contribute --

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Um, all right, so -- and then you go on this tour, Mendocino, Tennessee, through Europe, back. Hookup back with Manson, and, uh --

INMATE DAVIS: Correct.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- how long are you with him until you get arrested?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was back in, uh, the summer of, um, 69, the, uh, the Hinman case was in, uh, July --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So --

INMATE DAVIS: -- July.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- so how much time passed?

INMATE DAVIS: A month.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: A month.

INMATE DAVIS: About a month or --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And so you get back, and within a month, you're involved in just horrendous criminal activity.

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you start out there with peace and love and parties and sex and whatever. That was when you get --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- there. Leave. Come back. Same thing?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Peace, love.

INMATE DAVIS: The whole thing had changed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So the thing had changed --

INMATE DAVIS: The atmosphere had changed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And where were you at? Where were you guys hangin' out at?

INMATE DAVIS: Spahn Ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So apparently he was back or --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Um, all right, so the atmosphere had changed. In what way?

INMATE DAVIS: They was very paranoid. In other words --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: They -- who's they?

INMATE DAVIS: Charles, uh, Manson was talking about there was going to be a race war. Uh, there was going to be the Helter Skelter idea of chaos -- social chaos, all right? And, uh, that was -- that was kinda the atmosphere.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Uh, and you -- I mean -- okay, so I don't know if it's just your affect that you smile like you're reminiscing about it --

INMATE DAVIS: You know --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- in a --

INMATE DAVIS: -- you know, when I think --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- good way.

INMATE DAVIS: -- I -- I'm -- I'm just thinkin' how crazy -- I -- I mean -- how absolutely undone I was in my mind to -- to even participate in that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well, I think that's what everybody things, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, that's what we're tryin' to figure out here, because, okay, I get it, peace, love, girls, sex, whatever, drugs, but then when you come back, it's totally different. You say the atmosphere's --

INMATE DAVIS: It had changed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- changed. There --

INMATE DAVIS: It had changed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: It's all about race, war, paranoia, Helter Skelter --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- but you're still hangin' out. So I -- that's what I don't get.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So --

INMATE DAVIS: -- one of --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- that's what you -- you were attracted to the women. You were attracted to -- that's what you were originally attracted to.

INMATE DAVIS: And to Manson, himself.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And to Manson.

INMATE DAVIS: Now here's what, I adopted Charlie as my dad, early on. Now, not in a formal way, but in my own self, and -- and that was -- that was -- I -- I don't know all the ramifi -- well, the ramification was I was just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well would you call him dad?

INMATE DAVIS: No. No, it wasn't like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you call him dad?

INMATE DAVIS: But in my heart, in my heart.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you're 26, 27 - -

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- 28.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How old is he?

INMATE DAVIS: Eight years older than me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So he's not a dad figure.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, but he treated me like a man with power who's giving me respect.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But he treated you like an equal, you said.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but, you know, father-son relationships are different than that.

INMATE DAVIS: Well.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You know?

INMATE DAVIS: I took it as a f -- as that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I -- I'm not -- you're right on that, but I -- I took it as this was somebody that I -- I looked up to.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so the atmosphere changes, and, um, you're at this ranch and what? Are you guys discussing this all the time? I mean, is this the -- the conversation's going on at this ranch? Because no one's working, right? You guys are just all hanging out at the ranch, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And, um, you what? You still have unemployment? I mean, how are you sustaining yourself this time around?

INMATE DAVIS: I had some money left when I came back.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, uh, they were getting money. Uh, they -- there was -- the girls were getting money from different places, I don't know exactly what. Um, there -- there was -- there was some drug deals going on.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And who was the -- who was selling the drugs?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, there was drug deals with -- with, uh -- with Watson, and I don't -- I don't know the details of 'em, but he had the money. He had money.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Anybody else?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, Manson and Watson were -- seemed to be the people that knew most about what was going on on the -- on the money side.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So they were the drug dealers?

INMATE DAVIS: Well they were certainly involved in it, yeah, they were.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. So during this time period, I mean, from the time that you met Manson to the time that you came back the second time and then the atmosphere change, had you been involved in any criminal activity?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well, you were doing drugs.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, uh, well let's see, when I left, um -- when I left I did -- I did, yeah, I smoked some marijuana in Tennessee. When I got to Europe, I didn't. We -- there wasn't any in Europe. The scientologists didn't have any, so I was -- we were drinking, but --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: That's not illegal.

INMATE DAVIS: -- as -- but as far as bein' involved in, you know, buying and selling drugs, I wasn't that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So no other types of crimes except for doin' some marijuana.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. So then in -- within a month, then -- I'm trying to figure this out. Within a month you get back there. The atmosphere is completely changed. I guess you're, like, okay, I still wanna hang out here.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Why?

INMATE DAVIS: I was just attracted to the -- to -- to the -- to Charlie, to the girls. I wasn't -- I -- you know, I -- I had -- I had convinced myself that if I don't get directly involved in -- in the drug dealings - - if I don't get directly involved in -- in anything that's -- that they're doing wrong, then I'll be all right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And so I was -- I deceived myself, and it was a crazy type of a thought, but I thought, well, if I don't get -- if I don't get over here and just get involved in all this stuff, then I'll be okay. I'll just be able to kinda be on the side of this.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well why would they keep you around if you weren't involved in it? I mean, what -- what -- what were they getting out of you being there?

INMATE DAVIS: Well I was working on the dune buggies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I was -- I was doing the welding and -- and, uh, we were -- we were building a few dune buggies. So I was doing that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No one el -- was anybody else helping you with that?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, Watson.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Well he was a good mechanic.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So he knew how to do the same stuff?

INMATE DAVIS: He was doing some mechanic work, I was doin' some of the welding. Uh, basically we built a few dune buggies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: So that was -- that was my contribution.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, and was there talk about violence the -- you know, this time when you're back and the atmosphere changes, so was there talk about violence?

INMATE DAVIS: There was talk about -- yeah, there was talk about violence.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Like what?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, there was gonna be the revolution. That was the violence.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but was -- there was talk about the revolution. Were you the ones that were going to be involved in this or was this the talk of, there's gonna be a revolution in the world, and --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the revolution was that the blacks were goin' to -- to rise up.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: That was -- that was -- that was the version.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And so what w -- what does that have to do with you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, that everybody white was going to be the -- the subject of their revolution. The object of it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And who brought -- who -- who said this?

INMATE DAVIS: Well that's what Manson was saying.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So Manson's -- and you believed this?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I didn't believe that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. So he's talkin' about this black revolution --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- and they're gonna rise up against the whites --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- and you're not buyin' it.

INMATE DAVIS: No, I didn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but you're still hangin' out and listening to it.

INMATE DAVIS: I was -- I was having -- I was getting what I wanted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And so, um -- but again, what does this have to do with you? I mean, Manson's talkin' all this stuff about this revolution of blacks, and how did this involve this -- your group? The group at the ranch?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Or family as --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, well, we were gonna have dune buggies go off into the desert and avoid the -- the chaos.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Right?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Sounds like a plan, so --

INMATE DAVIS: And live out in -- live out close to Death Valley.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So you guys were gonna avoid the revolution.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I certainly was.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well no, I'm not - - I'm asking about --

INMATE DAVIS: No, but --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- what --

INMATE DAVIS: -- but, yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- if that's what was being said.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, but we weren't -- we weren't gonna be in -- involved in it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- it directly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. That's what I wanted to know. So you're not involved in this directly. This is just the opinion of, this is what's gonna be happening in the world. We're preparing to drop --

INMATE DAVIS: And -- and --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- out further, I guess.

INMATE DAVIS: That's right. And it was sorta based on, um, the -- the history, okay? Look what happened to Martin Luther King. Look what happened in Watts. Look what happened in Newark. Look what happened in Detroit. Look what happened in Chicago.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I got it.

INMATE DAVIS: So there's a lot of --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right.

INMATE DAVIS: -- a little thing, so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So that was just -- that was his opinion about --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- looking at what was going on. But -- so that's why I'm trying to figure out, though, if that's the point of all the talk about this revolution and you're building the dune buggies to get to Death Valley or whatever, then how -- what -- I mean, then -- then how do all of these murders take place?

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So, cause this to me sounds like you're trying to avoid it to be peaceful, right? Cause you're trying to get away from the revolution.

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So --

INMATE DAVIS: Okay, well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- how does that sh -- then -- then --

INMATE DAVIS: Hey, it didn't make a lot of sense then. It still doesn't make a lot of sense.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I was not -- I was not being at all sensible.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but --

INMATE DAVIS: So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- to me -- all right, so now we're gonna take off and go somewhere else to not be bothered by all the world issues or the issues in America right now. We're gonna go take off and -- and find our own little spot and do what we're doin'. Fine. But that's not what you did.

INMATE DAVIS: No, it wasn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So, uh, that's wh -- take me to how, then, you ended --

INMATE DAVIS: Okay, so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- up where you were --

INMATE DAVIS: -- so we --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- ended up where you -- ended up today.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay. So -- so the -- so the part where I -- my crime, the first one, uh -- about Gary Hinman. Uh, Gary -- I -- Gary had been a friend of, uh -- I knew Gary before, uh, Susan knew Gary, several of us knew Gary down in Topanga Canyon, and, uh, there was a issue of Charlie told -- told us, we need money. And one of the girls says, oh, Gary has a big inheritance, and so the plan was, well, let's get Gary to give us his money, and we'll get him to join the family.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So he was not a part of the family?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not at all.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And just for the record, that's what you called yourselves, right? The family?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Everybody living at the ranch.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how many people are we talking about?

INMATE DAVIS: A dozen.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: A dozen.

INMATE DAVIS: More. Th -- th -- they were comin' and goin', so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- it was kind of -- that was in flux.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And you knew Gary from Topanga Canyon?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You used to hang out with him in that -- the pl -- the place that everybody hung out at?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, well, I n -- wh -- when we first -- when I first met, uh, Manson in -- when we were in Topanga, we knew Gary then.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And you liked him? He was a friend?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, Gary was a great guy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Have any problems with him?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So they said, oh he has some money, and we're gonna take it from him and try -- so originally it sounds like you were gonna try to embrace him so then you could use his money.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Charlie says, we'll have -- we'll have -- we'll invite Gary to be in the family, and he'll give us all his money, and that was sort of the way --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But --

INMATE DAVIS: -- we were gonna get the money.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well that's what he was doing to everybody.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Embracing all of you and then using you for what he could use you for, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And you were using him for what --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So, okay, so he was just doin' what he was doin' with everybody else.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And you guys didn't figure that out. Uh, so then what? Okay, so why didn't he join the family and -- and you guys use his money?

INMATE DAVIS: Bobby and -- uh, Bobby Beausoleil and -- and Mary, uh, Brunner, um -- uh, Susan Atkins said we'll go -- we'll go -- we'll go talk it over with Gary. We'll get it from him, and -- and right away, uh, Charlie says, no, Gary's not gonna do that. He -- he's -- he's not gonna go for that. And -- and so Bobby says, we'll take it from him. And so, uh, Bobby and Mary and Susan -- I drove 'em -- I drove 'em to Gary's house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So actually it's Bobby, Mary, Susan and you.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I drove. Yeah, yes ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I was -- I was just as involved as they were, but --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well you made it sound like they were going to get the money, but you're going with them to get the money.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, yeah, that's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I was going to drive the car and leave them off, and -- and I went back to the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But you knew what was happening, right?

INMATE DAVIS: I knew they were -- they were going to get the money. They --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And you were gonna --

INMATE DAVIS: -- were gonna try to get the money.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- you were gonna leave 'em there?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: They asked me to leave 'em. They said we -- we'll -- we'll -- we'll -- we'll -- we'll call you up.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So you give 'em a ride, and you -- and you leave 'em there.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then you go back to the ranch.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how far away are we talkin' about?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, from Topanga into the valley on the -- into -- probably 20 miles, maybe more. I'm not really sure the distance.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: 20, 30 minutes to get there?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, it could be.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: It sounds like it.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you drop 'em off.

INMATE DAVIS: It -- it's a fair distance. A few days later, uh, the call comes to the ranch, uh, Gary's not cooperating. So -- so Manson and I drive back over. This time I go in the house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So are -- did you drive Manson, too? Are you the driver?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you drive, but you go in with Manson.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, and is --

INMATE DAVIS: And, um --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- Atkins, Beausoleil and Brunner there?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, they are.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so now there's five of you with Gary?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Anybody with Gary? Anybody with --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- no. By himself.

INMATE DAVIS: No. That was a very bad situation. It was terrible. Uh, Gary --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, well, I know.

INMATE DAVIS: -- Gary had been beat up. Uh, he had been patched -- patched. His head was wounded.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: When you got there?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so, um, was this at his house, or where was it?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, it was at his house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Was -- was he married?

INMATE DAVIS: (inaudible) No. No, Gary was not.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: He was single.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, he was single.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And he lived by himself.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So when you arrived, you see him pa -- with a patch on his head?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, he --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Patch on his head.

INMATE DAVIS: -- he had been hit in the head.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And bleeding and pleading for -- for mercy, and -- and just wasn't bein' heard, and Charlie said, uh, he wanted Gary's money, and Gary said I don't know what you mean -- something like I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have any money. And Charlie, uh, cut his face. I was standing right there with a gun.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so let's back up a little bit. You get a phone call saying he's not cooperating.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then what was your intention of going over there? Wh -- what -- what you -- what did you think you were gonna be doing when you went over there with Manson?

INMATE DAVIS: I was gonna take -- I was gonna take Manson over.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: He was gonna make Gary give him the money.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you were driving -- you were basically Manson's driver. Is that what you're saying?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, and --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then Manson was gonna force him to give him the money.

INMATE DAVIS: And I was for it. I mean, I wasn't, um -- I didn't say, oh Charlie, I don't wanna be any part of this. I -- I was right there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And, um --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But you were the driver, and Manson was the one that was gonna take the money from him?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Now was this money cash or what was it?

INMATE DAVIS: I have no idea.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, you don't know.

INMATE DAVIS: I don't know what form it was in.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Because I'm thinking that they could have already taken the cash if the wanted the cash, or they could've taken him to the bank to get the money. I mean, there -- it seems like - -

INMATE DAVIS: It was -- it was -- it was a very harebrained idea from the beginning.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Nobody knew exactly the form of this so-called inheritance. That was, uh -- I don't know who ever thought that it was actually real.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so then -- but I'm confused as to why you had a gun if you were driving Manson over there.

INMATE DAVIS: Well Bobby had originally borrowed it -- it was my pistol, but Bobby said I'll -- said, can I take your pistol? And I said yeah, so I gave it to him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: That was, what, when you first went there?

INMATE DAVIS: When I first drove 'em over.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: The first drop off.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And you handed your pistol over to him.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yes. Yes, that's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, well --

INMATE DAVIS: So --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- so what'd you think was gonna happen?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, hey, I knew that -- I knew they were gonna -- they were gonna do anything they wanted to to get the money, and something bad very well may have happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but the whole point was to go over there to have him join the family.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well what do you mean, well yes?

INMATE DAVIS: Well yeah -- well, it was sort of like the offer you can't refuse type thing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: That's how it was going to go.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And so what -- you gave 'em what -- it -- was it a loaded pistol?

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So what were you doin' with a loaded pistol?

INMATE DAVIS: Well I bought it. It was a phony ID, and I got -- I got a federal case over that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But when did you buy it?

INMATE DAVIS: A few months before.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: For what reason?

INMATE DAVIS: Because everybody at the -- well, I shouldn't say everybody -- several of the guys had pistols, so I thought, I'll have a pistol, too.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But a few months before, you weren't even there.

INMATE DAVIS: Well I mean, what I mean, the -- when I -- when I first got back from Europe --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so when you first got back from Europe, you bought a pistol where? In California?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: With a phony ID?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, with a phony ID.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And had you already been livin' at the ranch?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And you bought it because all the other guys had one?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You knew how to use it?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You shoot when you were younger?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And then you handed it over when you dropped the three off.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And any comment about why you dropped it over? I mean, did he say anything to you like, I want your gun?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, he asked me, he said, can I use your pistol, and I said yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: So when we showed up at the house the second time, the gun had been fired in the kitchen. He and -- it seemed Gary and Bobby had struggled over the gun, and -- but Bobby retained the gun, but it had, it had fired in the kitchen, and that -- that -- that alarmed me. I got the gun back from Bobby. I said, give me this gun.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so you get there. He's bandaged. He's been beaten up or s -- or hit in the head --

INMATE DAVIS: Gary.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- you notice that there is a gunshot in the kitchen.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, they told me that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: They told you that. All right, you didn't see it.

INMATE DAVIS: No, I wasn't there when that happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And you're saying that alarmed you, so you took the gun back for what

INMATE DAVIS: I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- reason?

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't want to see it get shot again.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you were doing it to help Gary?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I didn't care anything about Gary.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You just didn't want it to get shot again.

INMATE DAVIS: I just didn't want -- you know, I -- I knew it was my gun. I knew I was getting inv -- I knew I was going to be involved in this case because -- just because of the pistol. I was just lookin' out for myself. So I got the pistol back, and I had it in my hand when -- when Charlie cut Gary's face. I was standin' right there with him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you walk in, you see what's going on, and how long are you there before you take the gun?

INMATE DAVIS: Five minutes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And then, uh, where's Gary at the time that you take the gun back?

INMATE DAVIS: Eh, well, he's in the livin' room with Charlie and Mary and -- and Susan and Charlie are in the living room. I get the gun back from Bobby --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And what do you do with it?

INMATE DAVIS: I had it in my hand.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yeah, but, okay, so why didn't you, like, put it somewhere? Why didn't you place it in a pocket? Why didn't you, I mean, if you're trying to -- if you didn't want it to get shot again, why would you hold it out and bring it with you?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, if I had control of it, I know it's not gonna get shot again.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Because I had it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- but I did have it in my hand, and -- and -- and for all Gary knew, I would shoot him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well that's the point I'm getting at. It just seems strange. You take the gun back so that you don't shoot it. Instead of putting it away somewhere or hiding it, putting it back in the car so that it can't be used, locking it in the trunk or whatever, then you go into the living room where the guy's getting cut, and you have the gun out.

INMATE DAVIS: He wasn't getting cut when I first came out.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you have the gun when he was getting cut?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And I had it in my hand. I -- there wasn't time to put it anywhere.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well you didn't even need to be in the living room when he was getting cut, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did they tell you to come in and help out? I mean, I -- you --

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- didn't even need to be in that room when --

INMATE DAVIS: No --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- that was --

INMATE DAVIS: -- I didn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- going on, so you chose --

INMATE DAVIS: -- it was -- it was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- to be there.

INMATE DAVIS: -- just about the only room in the house, really.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well how many rooms were in that house?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I only --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: There had to be a bedroom, there's a kitchen --

INMATE DAVIS: I only went in the kitchen and came out in the bedroom, eh -- eh, not in the bedroom, in -- in the living room. We're all stand --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: There's a kitchen, there's a bathroom, there's a bedroom, there's a living room. There's at least four rooms.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I didn't know anything about a bedroom or a bathroom.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well, what do you think's in a -- a house?

INMATE DAVIS: Well I'm not sayin' that they weren't there, I'm just sayin' I wasn't -- I never went into 'em.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Commissioner, what's, I mean --

INMATE DAVIS: And -- but I was only in two rooms.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: I came out of the kitchen.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Why didn't you stay in the kitchen? I mean, so the point that I'm trying to make is if you're trying to deescalate the situation --

INMATE DAVIS: I wasn't trying to deescalate the situation.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I just didn't want someone to use your gun.

INMATE DAVIS: I just didn't want something to use --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Got it. Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And I wasn't gonna use it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So you weren't trying to deescalate the situation, you just didn't want someone to use your own gun, so you take it, and then you go into the living room to see what's going on in there.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Got it. Okay, and what's going on in there?

INMATE DAVIS: Charlie is saying, Gary, I want the money. And Gary is saying no.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And Charlie has a knife, and he cut Gary's face.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Do you know where he got the knife from?

INMATE DAVIS: He brought it with him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, so he had it in the car when you were with him.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And you saw it, and you knew he had it.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. And so then he cuts him where? Do you know, or do you remember?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, one time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: One time where?

INMATE DAVIS: But it was, it was right here on the side of the face. I mean, it was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So let the record reflect the right side of the face.

INMATE DAVIS: I think it was, well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I'm s -- right --

INMATE DAVIS: The side of his face.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, and what are you doing at this time?

INMATE DAVIS: I'm just standing there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: But when I saw the blood, I'll tell you what, when I saw the blood, I had never seen bloodshed in anger. That was the first time I'd ever seen it. I left right then.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You left, and where'd you go?

INMATE DAVIS: I left. I went and got in that -- well, I took Gary's car. I did do that. I took his car and I drove back to the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you stole his car?

INMATE DAVIS: I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well didn't you come in a car?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So why'd you take

INMATE DAVIS: They wanted --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- his car?

INMATE DAVIS: They wanted to take that other car to drive out. They -- they needed a car to get back, too.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well they could've taken Gary's car.

INMATE DAVIS: Well I don't know what they -- what they -- they could have done a lot of things, but they said, take his car, so I took his car.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And so then you didn't know what happened after that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well not immediately. Uh, a couple days later, uh, I saw Gary's van. He had a VW van. I saw it at the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did Manson drive back with you in his --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- car?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I drove back by myself. I left Manson and -- and the rest of 'em there and, uh, drove back to the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you point the gun at Gary?

INMATE DAVIS: I'm sure I did. I had it in my hand.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well --

INMATE DAVIS: I did -- I didn't, uh -- let me say this. I didn't point it to him as if I was gonna shoot him with it, but I'm standing there with my hand - - well, and that's been kinda my point. The Commissioner asked me, did you point the gun at Gary. I said, well, I had it in my hand. That would be enough for Gary. It didn't -- I didn't need to do like that for him to be threatened. I'm standin' here, I'm one of the people who are on the other side from him. So he -- he's bound to see me as an enemy, and -- and -- and I have a gun, so, yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, I guess that there's a difference when you're holding a gun and it's on your s -- the side and you're still holding it in your hand. You're holding it.

INMATE DAVIS: No, I wasn't holding it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Holding it --

INMATE DAVIS: -- like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- behind me. I mean, so there's different -- it -- it -- it's something different. Holding it in your hand can mean so many different things, so why don't you just describe to me how you were holding it in your hand.

INMATE DAVIS: I'm gonna tell you what I believe happened. I don't remember --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Hold on. Just tell me, uh -- just, please answer my question.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: If you remember.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay. The best I can remember.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: The best I can remember, I -- I -- I just had the gun like this, just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So it was in front of your chest --

INMATE DAVIS: -- just in the -- just -- just right -- right here.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Holding it close to your chest?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Indicating with his thumb up toward his -- his, uh, chin and his index finger, um, cocked horizontally halfway.

INMATE DAVIS: It -- it would like I -- I --

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: -- simulating --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, hold on here. Right.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. And -- and -- and, it was an automatic, so, I guess I had it mostly by the handle.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. Okay, and then h -- uh, Manson slices him, you become shocked or --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Then they -- so Manson tells you to take Gary's car back.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I -- I -- when that happened, I said, I'm leaving. And -- and then they said, well here, take Gary's car.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And who's they?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, either Bobby or Mary. Somebody.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. And then you take the car and go back to the ranch.

INMATE DAVIS: So I take the car and go back to the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, all right, and Manson stayed back?

INMATE DAVIS: Everybody stayed. I'm the only one that left.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So then what'd you find out happened while you were gone?

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: If you -- if you found out.

INMATE DAVIS: Days later, I found out. They said they killed Gary.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And do you know any details about that?

INMATE DAVIS: He was stabbed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: By who?

INMATE DAVIS: Bobby.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Any other details that you know?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, no. Uh, Bobby stabbed him. Um, there was something about a pillow over his face. Um -- uh -- uh, Gary was, uh -- well he was desperate, begging for help.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: While you were there, or --

INMATE DAVIS: No. I just -- I just heard this.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Well he was begging for help when I was there, but he hadn't been stabbed at that point. Not, not fatally.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then who wrote the words political piggy in -- in blood and --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I'm not sure who wrote it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You're not, and the paw, whatever.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I'm not sure who wrote it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You're not sure?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Had you heard about that?

INMATE DAVIS: I heard about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, you did? Okay. All right, so you found out that he was murdered, and I guess you still c -- continued to hang out with them.

INMATE DAVIS: Sorry to tell you that --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so --

INMATE DAVIS: (inaudible)

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- but -- but why? That's what I -- I'm just trying to figure out why, cause you're this party guy that wants to do some drugs, have a good time, have no responsibility, hang out, do what you wanna do. Okay, right, I get it. But now it's completely different.

INMATE DAVIS: It is. It is. You know, I've thought about that a lot, and -- and, uh -- it -- I -- I guess it might be cheap to say that I was hooked on the situation. I mean, that's a easy word to say, but -- but I was so enmeshed in my head, uh -- uh, I wanted -- I wanted the acceptance, I wanted the -- the, uh, feeling of being -- being somebody -- somebody important, somebody liked. Um -- uh, I -- that's why I stayed. Uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And, so what do you mean, you were hooked on the situation?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the affection that I thought -- the -- the -- the -- the attention from the girls I took as affection. Um -- the, um -- the rapport with -- with Manson, I took his respect, I see it -- it wasn't, but it was manipulation as I see it now, but I didn't think about it like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did you, I mean, when you -- when you came back, and I -- and everybody found out that Gary had been murdered, did you -- did you receive more affection and more -- I mean, was it -- had anything changed as far as any of the relationships going on?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No, so you didn't get any more prestige from it, or --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No.

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: No, I wasn't -- I'm -- no -- I wasn't looking for prestige from that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, and then -- then very soon after that, then there's, you know, seven more murders --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- which you did not participate in, correct?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But you found out about them.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And so how'd you find out about 'em?

INMATE DAVIS: On television.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I'm sorry?

INMATE DAVIS: On television.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You found out on television? You didn't find out from anybody from the family?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I found out some details later.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: But we were wa -- I was watching TV that morning, and it was a moon landing, and along with that came this report about the people in, uh, Cielo Drive, I think that was the name of the -- the house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you hadn't heard any talk about it before it happened?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No? Um, and you found out about it from the television, and then after that, did --

INMATE DAVIS: And then -- and then someone said, oh, that was -- that was Tex and Sadie, uh, Charles Watson and Susan Atkins.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And was there any reasoning behind those murders that they told you about?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not at the time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Well, because what you're sayin' to me with the murder of Gary is that he was murdered because he didn't give up money --

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So it's basically kind of like, uh --

INMATE DAVIS: It was a failed armed robbery, or a home --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right.

INMATE DAVIS: -- invasion or something like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. And so I was wondering if the seven other murders, was that -- did you find out later, was that because of they wanted to get money? I mean, was there any purpose or motive for it that you know of?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I c -- I've come to find out that there was a -- there was a music -- there was a music deal. There was a recording deal. I don't know all the details of it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- but, uh, Terry Melcher, who met Charlie, who came to the ranch and, uh, talked to Manson about havin' -- havin' a music c -- um -- um, a music contract -- a record contract.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Who was gonna have -- who -- who was gonna have the contract?

INMATE DAVIS: Terry Melcher --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- was -- was on the business side from -- from what I understand, and, uh, Manson was the musician. And Manson was the musician.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, okay. Got it. Thank you.

INMATE DAVIS: And the way I -- the way I put together what details I've learned was the -- the -- there was a recording, there -- there had been a recording, but nothing happened to it. It didn't -- it didn't -- it didn't pan out. And, um, Manson goes -- Manson is -- finds Terry Melcher's address and goes to see him, but meantime, uh, when he shows up at the house, um, Terry Melcher's not living there, but there are these security people, and they kicked Charlie out. They kicked Manson off the property, and, uh, now he's really steamed, and, um, he -- he thinks it's Melcher. So he -- he gets, uh, Watson and Krenwinkel and, uh, Atkins and sends them on this mission to kill these people.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But doesn't send you, and you didn't know anything about it?

INMATE DAVIS: No, sir. No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, so then --

INMATE DAVIS: Here's what I did know. I knew they were going out that night. I didn't know what.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, you knew that night they were going out?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. I didn't know why they were -- they had been -- they'd been doing these things where they would go in somebody's house just as if a burglar - -

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- in a house, and -- and -- and, uh, the exercise, at least from what I understand, Charlie would send them in and say, I don't want you to take anything, I don't want you to do anything, I just want you to be in this house and overcome the fear, because he's tryin' to get 'em to, uh, overcome their inhibitions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And how many people was he asking to do that?

INMATE DAVIS: I'm not sure exactly how many, but I know that -- that Susan went, Krenwinkel went sometimes. Uh, I don't know who else went. I never went.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well who were the core people at the -- the ranch? I mean, how many people are we talk -- you said there was a dozen in and out, but who were the core people? How many core people were there?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, there was, uh, Lyn Fromme, she was -- she -- she stayed with George. Uh, he -- he owned the ranch, Mr. Spahn. There was, um, Susan -- Susan Atkins. Um, Catherine Share. Um, Mary Brunner. Um -- uh, Nancy Pitman. Uh, Catherine --

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: (inaudible) I didn't hear that part. Nancy --

INMATE DAVIS: Pitman. Um -- um, Catherine -- there was another girl named Cathy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, Gilman or a name like that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did he send them all out to just --

INMATE DAVIS: They --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- break into people's homes and s -- do nothing?

INMATE DAVIS: They did -- I don't think he sent -- I don't think all of 'em ever went together. Maybe one -- just two or three maybe. Maybe just in twos. I -- I never really knew exactly the combination of the people that went -- that went.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but what I'm trying to get at -- were they all involved in this except for you?

INMATE DAVIS: No, they -- they -- they weren't all involved. The only ones involved in it were just the ones I just -- basically Susan, uh, Krenwinkel, uh, those are the two I'm sure.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: You know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well I'm just -- so what I'm tryin' to get at is -- so, I mean, if you -- if -- why are you hang -- why are you s -- hangin' around if he's -- I mean, he's not sending you out to do all this stuff, so what's your purpose there?

INMATE DAVIS: I'm still workin' on the dune buggies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: That's it? You're still workin' on -- you're workin' on the dune buggies?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, there's plenty to do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so you're the ranch hand, I guess.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, that part.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, that's what you're saying, and then, although you would drive 'em there, uh, be present, but you weren't being asked to go into these houses --

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- or anything like that. Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: That was -- that was. Let me tell you something. That was way too scary for me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I would -- I wouldn't have done that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you wouldn't have done that --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- but you -- you're okay with watching someone get slashed and then stealing --

INMATE DAVIS: I wasn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- a car.

INMATE DAVIS: -- okay with it when it happened. That's when it didn't get okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I was -- I was able to go along with everything until -- and -- and I was not -- I didn't just go along as if poor me, I got drug along. I was for what was happening. But when it came to Gary getting cut, that was -- that was something that I -- I was not ready for.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but you stayed there, cause you were hooked on the situation --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I stay -- I stayed -- I stayed at the ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And then seven more people get murdered, and you stay there.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I sure did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And that's what we're tryin' to figure is why would you be staying there --

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't think it had affected -- I didn't think I was guilty of what they did. I wasn't -- I didn't go to, uh, Terry Melcher's house. I -- I didn't have anything to do with that. And I had convinced myself, pretty stupidly, that since I didn't cut Gary, then I was -- I really done anything.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I mean, I realize how deceived I was and what a silly thing it was to draw that conclusion.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: But it made sense at the time.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Commissioner, can we take a short break?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Of course. Of course. Time is 10:30. We'll take a five-minute recess.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: We're off the record. We are back on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, we are back on the record. The time is 10:43 a.m. All parties that were present prior to the recess are present now. This is on Davis, D-A-V-I-S, CDC number B41079. Um, okay, so moving on. We're moving on now to, um, Donald Shorty Shea. Do you know what I'm talkin' about?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So we have the, uh, seven murders. That was toward the beginning - - that was August 9th and 10th. You found out the next day, and then you found out some details, it sounds like. Then it looks like, what, a couple weeks later, or when -- when was the --

INMATE DAVIS: I think it was in September, so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- and --

INMATE DAVIS: -- some days later.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, and how did you know -- how did you know him?

INMATE DAVIS: Donald?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yes.

INMATE DAVIS: He was, uh, he worked at the ranch. He worked at Spahn's Ranch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What did he do?

INMATE DAVIS: He was, uh, kind of a general -- general hand, I suppose. Uh -- uh -- helped with the -- with the animals and, um, upkeep of the place.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: He -- he was a friend of Mr. Spahn.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did you have any problems with him?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No? At some point, what, there was talk that he was a, um, a snitch or something? Is that what --

INMATE DAVIS: That was, uh -- that was the motive. He was an informer.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And who believed that?

INMATE DAVIS: Manson.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And that's what he told everybody or?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, that's what he told the three of us that -- I guess there was three -- that morning.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Who were the three?

INMATE DAVIS: Charles Watson, Steve Grogan, myself and Bill Vance.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And what did he say?

INMATE DAVIS: He said --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Manson say?

INMATE DAVIS: He said, um, Shorty is a snitch. We're gonna kill him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did he give you any evidence or explanation of why he thought he was a snitch?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No, and I guess you didn't -- whatever he said, you just agreed with?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, cause if someone says to me, this person's a snitch, I want some facts or details or description as to why he thinks he's a snitch, right? Of if she thinks he's a snitch. But nothin'.

INMATE DAVIS: Well that would've made a lot of sense, but, uh, the state it was in, I didn't -- I didn't ask any questions.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Which -- what state are we talking about?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I was afraid to, uh, have Manson's disapproval.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Were you under the influence of drugs during this time period?

INMATE DAVIS: Not particularly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so that wasn't a factor.

INMATE DAVIS: It was, you know, I believe the -- that the influence of drugs sort of, uh, builds up. And, uh, and over time, uh, my mental moral, uh, faculties just declined over time. And so they were in a diminished state. I'm not sayin', oh, it was the drugs made me do it, not at all. I made the decision --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- but -- but drugs were, you know, peripherally involved.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So what was the plan for Mr. Shea?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well the plan for Mr. Shea was to ask him to, uh, take us down to, uh, auto parts in the morning to, uh, to get some parts. And, um, that's what we -- we asked him to take us, we got in -- we got -- and he drove his car. Um, we were going down to the parts place. Um, uh, Mr. Watson was sittin' in the fr -- front, I'm sittin' behind the, uh, the passenger on the -- on the back seat, and Gro -- Mr. Grogan is on the driver's side in the back seat.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, and --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- did you guys know you were gonna kill him or?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You did. You knew when? That morning or --

INMATE DAVIS: Right then.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right th --

INMATE DAVIS: It -- it all happened right -- very -- within just a few minutes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So he ca -- he says he's -- so Manson tells you he thinks he's an informant, and then within minutes you're getting in the car?

INMATE DAVIS: And so -- well it probably -- maybe -- I -- I'm not saying minutes minutes, but probably within an hour.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: But -- but pre -- pretty quick. And, um --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And what was your role in it?

INMATE DAVIS: I -- my role? I sat in the car. Um, wh -- when -- when the murder started, I was present, and I cut Mr. Shea.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: With what?

INMATE DAVIS: With a knife.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you cut him where?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, in his -- his right -- his right arm, shoulder, in this area. Uh, somewhere between his, uh, armpit and his collarbone.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And why did you do that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, when, uh -- when Mr. Shea had been stabbed and virtually unconscious as far as I could tell, uh, Charlie handed me a -- a machete, and he said, I want you to cut his head off. I took the machete, and I had it in my hand, and I couldn't do it. I dropped the machete. I found out I had a limit, and that was what I was not gonna do. Then, uh, Manson handed me a knife, and he said, well you better do something. So, I knew what that meant, so I reached over and, um, cut -- cut Mr. Shea. It was a upper stroke, and, uh, cut his shoulder.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So was it Manson that was stabbing him before that?

INMATE DAVIS: He did. I saw him stab him. He had been stabbed by other people, too. I just -- I didn't see that part. I got there a little late.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How did you get there a little late? Weren't you in the car with them all?

INMATE DAVIS: I was in the car. I did -- I -- I hesitated to go -- I didn't wanna even go down there.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What? You get out of the car and go where?

INMATE DAVIS: I stayed in the car. Manson pulled up behind us. He was in another car.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: So when he came by the car, he said c'mon, so I went. And I went down.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Went down where?

INMATE DAVIS: We were down, well, okay. We were parked on the side of the road. There was um, a bank going down --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- and so they -- they had taken Mr. Shea down -- down in that -- in the underbrush, and that's where the murder happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did he, was he saying stuff, like what are we -- what are you doin', or was he --

INMATE DAVIS: He did say, why are you doin' this. That's -- that's the thing I remember hearing him say exactly. He said, Charlie, why are you doin' this? And Charlie said, here's why, and he stabbed him again.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, so he had been stabbed multiple times when you stabbed him, right?

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't stab him. I cut him here.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You slashed him.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay --

INMATE DAVIS: But he --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- make a difference. I mean --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, there -- there -- you know, here's why. Here's why. Uh, in a couple of hea -- in one of the hearings in 2010, uh, I told, I told what I did. I said I cut him, and the Commissioner said, oh, no, you stabbed him. I said, I didn't stab him. He said, yeah, well you had -- had to stab him. I said, I didn't stab him, and there was kind of a big deal about that, so I'm gonna just make it clear.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't stab him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You wanna make a - - you wanna distinguish between stabbing and slashing.

INMATE DAVIS: I realize that it's all assault. I didn't care -- you -- you know, uh, that's just what happened.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, and it's, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, um, and then who cut him up into nine pieces?

INMATE DAVIS: Nobody cut him up.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No one cut him up?

INMATE DAVIS: Did you ever read the --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Whoa.

INMATE DAVIS: I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: No, no, no, no, no, no.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Don't get mad at me.

INMATE DAVIS: No (inaudible)

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I'm asking you questions.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay. All right.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: He was never cut up. He was never decapitated.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but I'm asking the questions --

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- and I can ask - -

INMATE DAVIS: Okay, okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- what I want to ask.

INMATE DAVIS: I'm -- I'm sorry, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And frankly, it comes up in the governor's letter, which is --

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I know it --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I don't know why you're getting all excited about it.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, okay, here -- here's --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Because it's been --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I know, but I have to go through it.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I know you do, and I appreciate, uh, your position.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No you don't, or else you wouldn't have snapped like that.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, so, here, if it's gonna be easier for you, I'll say, um, that according to the trial t -- testimony from Barbara Hoyt, Ma -- Manson recounted the details of the Shea murder to a group of members. He sta -- Manson said that "they had killed Shorty Shea" and "they cut him up in nine pieces." Manson described how they had taken Mr. Shea for a ride, hit him in the head with a pipe and then stabbed him repeatedly. Masson -- Manson also related that Mr. Shea was "real hard" to kill until they "brought him to now." The term now to the Manson family meant absence of thought. Davis agreeing with Manson's description of the murder stated, "yeah, when we brought him to now, Clem cut his head off. Did you say that?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, I said that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Adding "that was far out." Did you say that?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: As Manson described the murder, Davis nodded his head and smiled several times. Davis later bragged to one family member, Alan Springer, that they had ways of taking care of "snitches" and had already taken care of one. Davis told Springer "we cut his arms, legs and head off and buried 'em on the ranch, so I really don't think my question was unreasonable.

INMATE DAVIS: Now here --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay?

INMATE DAVIS: -- here -- here's -- here's the part if I -- I'm sorry. I apologize for my reaction. Look, Mr. Shea was never dismembered. When -- when the body was discovered, uh, there was an autopsy, and the autopsy report says there was no signs of any dismemberment, anything like that. So that was just -- that was just bragging. That was just bragging.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so what you're saying is you lied about it.

INMATE DAVIS: I lied about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: His head was never cut off?

INMATE DAVIS: No, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Even though you basically said --

INMATE DAVIS: I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- hold on, that Manson told you, he handed you a machete and said cut off his head.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I didn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No, I know that, but --

INMATE DAVIS: I wasn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Uh, okay. So everybody -- all of these different people relating this to different people are -- were all bragging about it?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right. Um --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Commissioner, you've seen the autopsy report I take it?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: We -- we have the whole --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: There was also --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- file in front of us.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: -- a BPH investigation which confirmed this.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Uh, you guys aren't really getting this. This is a governor reversal, and I have to go through the governor's --

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I understand --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- letter --

INMATE DAVIS: -- that.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- so, I mean --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am, your --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- you guys can make your arguments, right? You can make your argument.

INMATE DAVIS: All right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I have to do my job --

INMATE DAVIS: No, you do.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- and go through the governor's letter, and the governor brings this up.

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am. I -- I realize that, and, you know, when I read that, I wonder why he keeps saying it in light of the autopsy.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Um --

INMATE DAVIS: Is -- is that a -- a valid point? Is that a valid question?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: The governor brings it up in his letter.

INMATE DAVIS: To say why does the governor keep saying that --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well that's -- you --

INMATE DAVIS: -- in light of the autopsy --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yeah, that's --

INMATE DAVIS: -- that said it wasn't --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- that's an argument you can make. Certainly. You can make whatever argument you --

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- want.

INMATE DAVIS: All right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So let's keep going. I think -- I think you've actually -- we've covered most of the areas from the governor's letter. Um, but lemme go through it. Um, on the -- let's see, it's -- mm -- bottom, I believe, of third page, which says, but the crimes alone are not the only evidence that Davis remains unsuitable for parole. I have reverse grants of parole to Davis twice before, not only because of his atrocious crimes but also because he minimized the nature and extent of his responsibility for these murders and his role in the Manson family. In 2013, I noted that Davis has spent decades downplaying his role in the murders and the family's activities. He was still revealing new details about the murders over four decades later, that he sliced Mr. Shea from his armpit to his collarbone while the others stabbed Mr. Shea and that another man also witnessed or participated in Mr. Shea's killing. Contrary to the record, Davis described being only a reluctant participant in the group's violence and being more interested in sex and drugs. I noted in 2014 that Davis was still dodging responsibility for his active role in the murders and was continuing to paint himself as a passive follower of Charles Manson. Uh, I do not accept Davis's claims that he subscribed to only part of the Manson world view, the women, sex and drugs and just tolerated the group's violence to get "more of what he wanted." He said he was drawn to Charles Manson because "he had influence with women that I never had and I admired. He had access to drugs. He had access to the things I wanted. I admired that. I wanted some of that, and I took his acceptance as real acceptance." He told the board in 2015 that the acceptance, sex and drugs "really took care of my agenda at the time." He claimed that the group's focus changed from peace -- "peace and love to Helter Skelter" while he was abroad, and he continued "the scenario had changed so that when I got back, it was about we've gotta get, we've gotta get armed, and there's gonna be a race war, etc. And so I wanted to be like the rest of the guys, and so I bought a pistol." He reported that he came to participate in these murders because "when these murders happened, they were a part of just a picture of what the family was doing, what I wanted to be accepted in. They were part of just a happening around, and I didn't object for one minute on my part." He reported "I had some lightweight reservations but not enough to stop me, so any feelings I had to the contrary weren't significant enough to change my behavior." Davis acknowledged "I knew better. I knew it was illegal. I knew it was wrong by certain, but I disregarded all that." And then it gets into the Shea murder. Um, at the bottom of that, it says, um -- it says that the psychologist stated that you had -- that was the 2015 -- had not addressed what aspect of your personality allowed you to callously participate in two murders despite your acknowledgement that you felt sick and depressed after the first murder. Did you feel sick and depressed after the first murder?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You did not.

INMATE DAVIS: I was alarmed when -- when -- when Manson cut Gary's face.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But you weren't sick and depressed?

INMATE DAVIS: Not like -- no -- no. I -- I felt, you know, I felt bad, but I -- it wasn't anything like when Mr. Shea was murdered.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Now that was -- that was when -- that was when the --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, so, um, you had a chance to look at the governor's letter, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You read through it? So you know what his ish -- concerns are, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Exactly what he said.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right. So this is your opportunity. You've gone through it, so I think that you -- we've covered all of the areas, but I do want to give you the opportunity. Is there anything that you wanna add or any comments that you wanna make about the governor's letter, anything you wanna correct or clarify that you think might help, uh, you know, clarify these issues that he's brought up?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I'll say this. Uh, so why did I stay with? You know, I was just afraid to leave. Um, I -- I knew after -- after Gary died -- after Gary was murdered, I knew I should leave, get away from this, and I was -- I -- I know it's quite irrational sounding, but I was afraid. I was afraid. Um, where would I go, I'd ask myself. I had no friends. I had cut myself off from everyone. Um, I -- I realize that I did have friends, that could have, and if I'd have left, I would have found support, but at the time, I didn't think I had any. Um, leaving -- leaving, uh -- leaving the family was not an option that I -- that I was considering at the time. I just didn't -- I just didn't think it was something -- it didn't -- there -- I never thought it would be possible in a way, psychologically. Um, I -- I was, um, very -- I was very -- of course, very insecure of my own self, and -- and -- and I was depending on the people around me as I see it now, you know, for approval and to make me okay with myself. I didn't see myself as adequate. I guess that's a major character defect is I felt inadequate and insecure, and, uh -- uh -- uh, afraid of, uh -- and I don't know of what, really, except -- except just bein' isolated. Um, I'd come to a point where their -- their acceptance to me was my total acceptance, uh, dynamic I guess you'd say, and -- and -- and to leave -- to leave that was horrifying. Uh, and, uh, I -- I stayed.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Um, so where -- when you got the gun, you said you got it with a fake ID, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Where'd you get the fake ID from?

INMATE DAVIS: DMV.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: DMV, but who put put it together. I mean, we know how that works, getting fake IDs from DMV, but did someone else from your group do it, or did you do it yourself?

INMATE DAVIS: You know, I -- I did it, myself. I was -- of course, on those days it was a lot easier, and I just went there and -- and gave 'em the story.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Did you ever get fake IDs for anybody else?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Uh, there's -- there's talk that you were also involved in, like, dealing with all the finances and things like that.

INMATE DAVIS: Say again?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: That you were not -- you weren't just the dune buggy mechanic/welder, but you also helped out with all the finances for the family. Is that true?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No. Okay. All right, do you have any questions?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Just a few. Mr. Davis, um, when you came back in, uh, 69 to the family, how much was Mr. Manson talking about Helter Skelter? Every day?

INMATE DAVIS: Seemingly all the time. I mean, that was the -- that was the theme.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay, but the way you have testified here today is, you didn't buy into it really. You were there for the sex and drugs, and it sounds like kind of the same issue the governor had before. Uh, let me read to you what he said on page -- on the, um, last page of his decision. As I've discussed twice before, Davis's own actions demonstrate he had fully bought into the depraved Manson family beliefs. It is clear that preparing for Helter Skelter physically, mentally and financially was the primary focus of each member of the group. And then it goes into the specifics of the crime, uh, crimes, but I'm wondering if that is true, you know, what we're trying to establish is transparency. You kind of described yourself as, uh, the mechanic, tinkering around with the dune buggies and, uh, not really buying into Charlie's talk about, you know, this race war and provoking it because if you look at the totality of -- of what was going on, Charlie wanted to provoke this race war, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, he certainly did in, uh, with Mr. Hinman's crime scene.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. The political piggy.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, that was, but that was -- to my knowledge, that was the only real thing that he actually did, uh -- uh -- uh, toward that -- toward that end.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: But Tate, Labianca wasn't part of trying to ignite this race war Helter Skelter?

INMATE DAVIS: I don't think it is -- was anything written on there?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Uh, we -- we -- I guess that's kinda outside the purview of this hearing, but to your knowledge, Tate, Labianca wasn't part of Mr. Manson's --

INMATE DAVIS: No --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- overall plan --

INMATE DAVIS: -- no --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- to ignite --

INMATE DAVIS: No, that was -- that was about the -- the -- the -- the bad record deal.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Okay, and you --

INMATE DAVIS: (inaudible)

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- described that (inaudible)

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: There are two separate incidents, so you can't really describe them as one.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Well, let me ask you this. In -- in the way that governor lays it out, that it was a daily thing that the family was preparing to head out to the desert to hide in the desert and then ultimately become the leaders after this war had played out, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, part of -- part of Manson's story was that when the black people won the revolution that they wouldn't be mentally capable of ruling, and they would choose him to rule them.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: That was -- that was, um -- that was the story.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. The question, I guess, is, did you buy into that at all?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not -- not really.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Did you buy into Helter Skelter at all?

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't -- I didn't think there was gonna be a revolution.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Were you involved physically, mentally and financially preparing for this race war every day and -- and provoking it?

INMATE DAVIS: No, what I was doing was, I was working on the dune buggies so if that can be -- if that is classified as part of your question, I'd say, yeah, I did that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I -- I was not, you know, focused on, oh we've gotta get this and we -- there's gonna be this revol -- I -- I didn't believe that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: But it was something about this person who you, you idolized, who was your adopted father in your mind --

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- who you were always seeking the approval of --

INMATE DAVIS: True, yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- he's spouting this off every day, and you're not part of the -- the group's preparation to --

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, yeah, I was -- I was working on the dune buggies.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: That was -- that was my part of the preparation. The -- the -- the -- the -- the -- the part about the revolution stuff, I just smiled at it in my head, I thought no, that's not gonna happen. But, you know --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Did you ever say that to Mr. Manson?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Say, you know --

INMATE DAVIS: I told him, I said, Charlie, this - - that doesn't make sense. And this -- but I didn't do that in front of anybody else.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. The talk about the blacks being uncapable of, um, ruling themselves or -- once they've taken over. Were you, yourself, a racist at the time?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. When you were arrested, did you have a swastika, uh, cut into your forehead?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I -- I did that in -- in the county jail. Did I or not? No, wait a minute, I might have done it before.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Is there a videotape of you on the street at the time of your arrest with a swastika carved into your forehead?

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I don't know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: So you're saying you carved a swastika into your --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I either did, or somebody helped me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Wh -- wh -- why did you get that?

INMATE DAVIS: It was just a part of goin' along. Part of -- part of what they were doing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well part of what you --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Did someone tell you to do it?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- part of what all of you were doing.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, and -- and I was -- I wanted to be, uh, identified with that group.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Did someone tell you to do it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well not in -- not directly.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Had you seen other members of the family --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. When they did, I -- I did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Was that in support of Mr. Manson?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. That was in support of -- the -- the whole group was doin' it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. I want to once again give you an opportunity, and I think the, uh, Commissioner has already given you the opportunity, but I wanna make sure, um, this is carefully covered, that once you had been there when Mr. Manson had sliced Mr. Hinman, and that impacted you, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, it did.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. The psychologist, as -- as the Commissioner, uh, read, Mr. Davis has not addressed what aspect of his personality allowed him to callously participate in two murders despite his acknowledgement he felt sick and depressed after the first mary -- murder of Gary Hinman. You said you didn't feel sick and depressed, but what was it about you having been impacted by what happened at the time of the Hinman slashing that you were present for and had a weapon, um, allowed you to just keep movin' forward with the group rather than leave?

INMATE DAVIS: You know, when I saw that with Gary, it was shocking, but I got over it. I got over it very quickly. I was able to convince myself, well, I didn't do that. I'm not really guilty of it. Uh, so the impact wore away. I was able to convince myself that even though it was -- it was a shocking thing that I saw, that it -- it really didn't, uh -- it didn't affect me in a legal way, so I was able to just really minimize the impact that it had or -- or its importance. Uh, you know, I see it now that, uh, we're talking about character defects, where one was really big was I -- I didn't care anything about myself in the sense that -- of having a real value. Uh, oh, I wanted to make myself look good because I didn't -- I was trying to make up for -- for -- for myself, trying to make myself look good. So -- so because I didn't value myself, I didn't value anybody else, and so, uh, aside from just the visceral vision of the -- of the blood with -- with -- with Mr. Hinman, the rest of it I was able to not even - - I didn't really react to a lot.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: We -- we talked about the motive of the Hinman, uh, ultimately murder was to get money from him --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, true.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Yeah, and that was to fund the family's move out to the desert?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it was to fund everyday life.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Probably and the move, that was part of it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay, because Mr. Manson wanted to move everybody out to the desert, and Helter Skelter was gonna take place --

INMATE DAVIS: Oh that was, yes, sir.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. And were there other illegal activities that haven't been talked about to this point that the family was doing to gather funds to help, either stay afloat financially, pay the bills or fund the move for Helter Skelter?

INMATE DAVIS: Well the only other thing that I remember that was tryin' to fund it -- two things. Uh, one thing, uh, there was a guy named Crazy Charlie, and, uh, Catherine Share knew him, and they -- they stole $5000 from -- from him. And that was a big piece of money, and then, um, Charles and, uh, I guess Charlie, um -- uh -- uh, Watson, uh, got -- stole a, uh, a welding truck from someone in the valley, and they brought it up and stashed it, and we used it to use for a welding machine, and, uh, the guy got his truck back, and it wasn't -- it was okay, it wasn't harmed or anything, so he didn't press charges or anything, but, uh, that was (inaudible) so that -- that was some illegal activities that were goin' on.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Did you have any hands-on involvement in that?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I used the truck. I used the welding machine.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: How about any, uh, drug dealing that you had personal involvement in?

INMATE DAVIS: No, sir.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Was there a motorcycle gang that Charlie, uh, had close to the group for his protection?

INMATE DAVIS: I don't -- I don't know about his protection, but -- but, uh, there were some. There was a -- there was a motorcycle group from Venice called the Straight Satans, and -- and one of the -- one of the members was a pretty regular visitor at the ranch, Danny DeCarlo.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And did the family sell drugs to that motorcycle gang?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I don't think they sold drugs. They might have got it -- they might have gotten 'em from 'em.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: I'm looking for any other ways -- how about stealing other cars other than the welding truck that you're aware of?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, there was some, um -- they stole a dune buggy. Uh, and that's --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: A buggy you were working on?

INMATE DAVIS: No. Uh, later. Well, I did work on it some, but the main one I worked on hadn't been, but, uh, I remember, uh -- uh, Nancy Pitman drove up in a -- a -- a VW dune buggy and told a story about how she got it from a -- a car lot. And then later on they -- there was a, um, a Toyota Land Cruiser that had been stolen.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And how about, um, obtaining stolen, um, credit cards or fake IDs. Did -- was the family involved in getting fake IDs and stolen credit cards to obtain funds for the family's expenses and to fund Helter Skelter?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, I had seen some credit cards but not fake IDs, but credit cards, yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay, and were you involved in any of the theft of that or handling the credit cards?

INMATE DAVIS: No. Uh, lemme -- lemme re -- rephrase that. One time we rented a truck, and I didn't have a credit card, but some -- somebody came with me, um, that had the credit card, and we rented the truck. So -- so I was involved in that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Now, was Helter Skelter written around on any of the doors at the ranch or --

INMATE DAVIS: I don't remember ever seeing it written down on -- on a -- you know, like a public display or anything.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And how frequently w -- would Mr. Manson gather the members of the family and talk about, you know, we're getting ready for Helter Skelter. You said he was talking about it. Was he obsessed with it in your mind?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I'd say so.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And he'd -- he'd gather everybody. How frequently would he gather everybody to talk about it?

INMATE DAVIS: Hard to say, really. Uh, more than once a week for sure. And it wouldn't always be everybody, it would just be a group of people at a time. Uh -- uh, it would hardly be, well okay, we've got to get together -- everybody get together in the same place, but everybody'd kind of gra -- gravitated together, and, uh, when they were there, we'd hear the talk.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And did you ever give Mr. Manson any indication that -- well you said you'd -- you'd given him some indication you had reservations about the whole idea of Helter Skelter.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: More than one time did you say to him --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, and he --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: What was his reaction back to you?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, he said, oh you'll see, you'll see, it's true. Oh, I didn't -- I really -- I didn't really get into arguments, but I would tell him, you know, this don't make sense.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Did it seem, well, from what you were able to observe of the other 12 members or so of the -- of the Manson family, did they seem to buy in fully to Helter Skelter?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, um, the people that -- we all -- well all bought into fully to the degree that we committed the crimes we did, that's for sure. And so -- and so, you know, I -- I -- I say this, when -- my involvement with -- with Mr. Hinman and Mr. Shea were certainly marks that I bought into it, so it wasn't like, uh, I was, oh, I just didn't, uh, bel -- I -- I believed in it enough. I believed in Charlie enough, or I -- I had whatever it took, right, my connection to them, to do the things I did. And I made the decision to do it. I knew it wasn't right, and, uh -- but I decided, you know, I could get more of what I wanted by doin' what I did than not.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Was the machete, uh, Charlie handed you to cut Shea with the same machete he used to cut him?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. He had multiple machetes?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the one he cut Mr. Hinman with was not a machete.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: It was just a big knife.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Would you describe your role with the Manson family as a leader or a follower or how would you best describe it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I wanted to be a leader. I always felt --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: In what way would you --

INMATE DAVIS: I always felt inadequate to that, but I wanted to be Charlie's favorite guy.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And what would you do to try to secure that position?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I would talk big. I was a great braggart and a liar, and, uh, that was -- that was 90% of it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And you say that the drugs, being in the family ate away at your morals, is that -- did I hear you say something to that effect?

INMATE DAVIS: That's true.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Do you -- do you ever consider the idea that, you know, you're bringing your morals such as they are into the -- into the group, and that's just an excuse. If you're -- you're saying all these exterior forces and the drugs are eating away at your morals --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, what I'd say was this. From the time I started taking a lot of acid back in -- in 65, yeah, uh, they didn't -- they didn't corrupt my morals, they just sort of lubricate the way. They make it a little easier. You know, kind of break down your inhibitions, and, uh, give you an excuse, right? So I realize that, um. No, I wouldn't say I did all this because the drugs made me do it, not at all. They were just sort of made things, I supposed, a little easier, uh, a little more acceptable or -- or something like that, but I knew better, so it wasn't like, uh, I was the victim of drugs.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Go ahead and defer back to the chair.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, thank you.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Um-hm.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Uh, do you have contact with anybody from the family now?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Through third parties or --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No? When's the last time you spoke with anybody from the -- from the family?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, there was a person who, uh, became associated with the family after the -- all the arrests and everything, Dennis Rice, and, um, he was livin' in Arizona for a long time. He had a big ministry there, and he wrote to me, and, uh, he said, you know, after I got out of San Quentin, the lord really changed my life. And, uh, so he started writin' to me. He came out and visited me once.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So when's the last time you spoke with him?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, probably in the 90s.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: It's been a -- eh, cause he's -- he's been dead quite a while now.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Tex Watson was at CMC with you for years, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yeah. Tex Watson was here in 90 -- he left in 90 -- 92? 92 was the last time I saw him.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you chat with him, though, I mean?

INMATE DAVIS: Say again?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: He might have been at the same facility as you, but did you hang out with him and chat with him when you were at the same facility?

INMATE DAVIS: When we were here together?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yes.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, we worked in the chapel together.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. You ever talk about the -- what happened and the -- the murders.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You did?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Wh -- why?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, by that time we were both very -- we were sad about it. We was terrible. We had waken up to what I'd done -- I'd woken up to what I'd done, he had, too, and we always talked about him in terms of how bad it was and -- and the damage we caused, and the pain we caused, and -- and the, uh, you know, the -- these families that were just -- how greatly affected. And, um --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How were they affected?

INMATE DAVIS: They were affected by losing their children, uh, and I can imagine -- you know, when I think about it, I think about the -- not only the parents and -- and the -- their immediate -- the immediate shock of losing their children, but, you know, the -- the -- those long lines goin' into a -- a graveyard, like, the hearses and all these -- all the things that are happening. The funerals, the, uh -- the expense -- just -- just -- just, it's kind of trivial, I guess, maybe in a certain way to say -- talk about the money part, but it's a big cost, uh, it's a big time thing. Uh, the people are involved and they're hurt in so many ways. Uh, they have to go through so much trouble because of what I did, and they had to continue it, and even when I'm in court and not admitting the truth, they had to come to court, they had to see me, they had to go through these changes, and I was afraid to tell the truth. So, that's the kind of things that, uh, Charles Watson and I talked about. That's how we talked about it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How have you made amends?

INMATE DAVIS: I've made amends by writing -- writing apology letters to -- when -- to the -- to the families. I've made amends by trying to compensate for the lives I took by helping others. I have a -- have a prosocial life. Uh, I've tried to compensate by helping people not make the mistake I have made, by warning them about the kind of things I got into. I've tried to compensate by showing people that they can change from their behavior that got them in prison. That it's, uh - - that it -- it's -- it's good for them, and it's good for everybody, for -- for the people in prison to reform. I've done what I can to, uh, to help the people around me to, uh, to come to their senses.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. I read somewhere that you wanna speak at churches or something after -- upon release about, uh -- about the Manson family and --

INMATE DAVIS: Well, not so much about the Manson family --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- but about the experience I had in getting drawn in, and I -- when I say drawn in, I don't mean that I was a victim that got sucked in, I mean I was a partici -- I -- I participated, right, but I was attracted. How you -- how I got attracted to something that was so bad, because I was -- I was just looking for power, and when I saw it, I wanted some. And -- and so -- so I -- I think -- I think the Christian community, they, I believe -- I believe they appreciate the -- the story of redemption. They appreciate the story of the fall that I got in. They appreciate the fact that I've come out of that mindset, and now I see the world differently because of Christ.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And it also can be seen as very narcissistic and you trying to gain more power by telling your story, and so now the attention is drawn on you again. I mean, that's how some people are gonna perceive it.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I realize that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You know, that you're out there, um, doing this to -- to place yourself in the spotlight and to further aggravate, um, the victims' families and things like that --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- so, I mean, you might not feel that way --

INMATE DAVIS: Well I -- I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- but -- and there's certainly going to be people that feel that way, and so why would you consider doing it if you know the harm, even though it might not be your intention --

INMATE DAVIS: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- the harm that it would cause.

INMATE DAVIS: You know, I really thought that -- that the families would appreciate the whole truth being told. I -- I really thought the families would probably appreciate the -- the prevention of other people losing their children like they did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And if they don't? I mean --

INMATE DAVIS: Well if they don't, I don't -- I was just givin' them -- I was just thinkin', you know, I think that they would appreciate the help.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But if they don't, and it's perceived by people as being narcissistic and you just doing it for more power and control and for yourself, a selfish act to place yourself in the spotlight --

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- are you gonna still do it?

INMATE DAVIS: You know, uh, I don't wanna harm anyone.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Are you gonna still do it?

INMATE DAVIS: You know, I -- I -- I should say - - I sh -- I should say no, I'm not. But here's what, so I -- I wanna just --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I j -- but is it - - so that's what you should say --

INMATE DAVIS: No, but --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: There's a but --

INMATE DAVIS: -- but -- but here -- and -- and there is, and -- and here's -- here's what it's about. Yes, I don't wanna -- I don't wanna hurt the -- the Hinman family, and I don't wanna hurt the Shea family, right? I don't wanna hurt them anymore. I -- I just, and maybe I'm -- I have a misconception that they would not appreciate the truth bein' told, other people bein' warned away from what happened --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you're still gonna do it?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, that's what I'm getting from you. No matter what, if -- if people perceive it differently, that this is about you, even though you don't think it's about you and you're trying to help people, that even though there would be harm caused that you're gonna do it.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, when -- on the basis of actually causing them more harm, no, I'm not gonna do it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: You know, and -- and I appreciate you pushin' the point, but, uh, I, up to -- up to this point, I had thought that the people who had been hurt would appreciate something that stops more of what happened to them rather than resent it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I know, and you've said that --

INMATE DAVIS: We don't know that that's --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- yeah, we don't know. I'm just saying, if.

INMATE DAVIS: Well.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So I was just -- it was more of a hypothetical if they don't -- if it's gonna cause harm --

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- cause I don't know.

INMATE DAVIS: -- if -- if --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But I know -- but I do believe that some people --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- out there will perceive it that way.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I know they will, and so --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And that, you know, it's just gonna bring more attention.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I -- I think in -- in a hypothetical situation, it might boil down to how much good could actually be done compared to how much bad feelings someone would have. Uh, I think it would be a judgement call. I don't wanna hurt them, and I -- I, um, I would do nothing to -- to bring them harm.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Then it would be a no if they were gonna be harmed.

INMATE DAVIS: If they were gonna be harmed, yes it would be a no.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. All right, um, any other questions?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: No. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, all right, so lemme just go through the risk assessment. You doin' okay?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. All right, so let's see, which we've gone through some of it, but, um, do you remember how long this interview was from December 5th of 2016? Do you recall?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Commissioner, let's just make sure we're working with the same risk assessment. Are we talking about the revised one?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yes.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, it was a few hours I suppose.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: A few hours. Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Um, I'm not -- I didn't -- I didn't really keep a watch.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. And some people remember, and some people don't. There was a di -- we already went through the substance abuse diagnosis. There was a diagnosis of other specified personality disorder with narcissistic and antisocial features offered. It says your antisociality appears to have decreased over the years. Your narcissistic traits have shown -- have not shown the same trend. Um, you still continue to have ongoing grandiosity and need for abormation -- need for admiration and a lack of empathy. Um, as far as the drug relapsing, when asked, you said you'd avoid drugs by saying just say no and that you quit drugs back in 1974. Correct?

INMATE DAVIS: 74. That -- there's a little, uh, oversimplification here.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Go ahead.

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, I would avoid drugs by a lot more than just saying no.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Right? I -- I've been in AA a long time. I -- and -- and -- I'm -- I'm -- the 12 Steps are a part of my life, right? So I'm -- I'm -- I'm involved in a daily inventory, I'm involved in knowing my triggers, I'm involved in knowing the kind of risky situations I could be in. I'm involved in staying away from risky situations. So it's more than just saying no.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Your PCL-R score is below the mean of North American male inmates. It's below the cutoff for psychopathic personality. That's under the historic factors. There's the clinical factors, which we've been going through. Um, it goes on for many pages. Um, it says that your explanation contains elements of acceptance and some blame toward others, and then it goes through the explanations. It says that your discussion of the Manson family and the life crime left the, uh -- left the impression that above and beyond the aspects related to situational aspects, group mentality, peer pressure, intrinsic rewards, there is a personality deficiency that led you to commit the crimes. Um, there was, uh, the clinician thought, some tendency to defect responsibility, um, but you did display insight into other aspects related to violent reoffending, substance abuse, problems that led you to gravitate toward the Manson family and the irresponsible lifestyle you engaged in. There's no indications of recent problems with videe -- violent ideation or intent, instability or treatment or supervision response. In fact, you lack of violence in prison is commendable although not entirely surprising because there's no history of violence outside the context of the Manson family. Your ability to constant -- consistently follow rules and engage in prosocial endeavors in prison is highly commendable. Um, you're have -- you're under elderly parole. Um, you've shown reduced criminal propensity while in custody, engaged in self-help, education, religion, jobs. Um, there was some concern about the lecturing at the churches, but your age has shown less criminality and increased prosocial endeavors. Your advanced age does not appear to have increased your level of risk at any point. You presently are still able to be independently complete daily living tasks, and there's no indications in the record of re -- of current diminished capacity. You're at a low risk for violence. There was some consideration of a moderate risk, and the explanations are included, and there are some concerns there, but, uh, upon discush -- that discussion, the clinish -- clinician still rates you at a low risk for violence, which is a nonelevated risk relative to long-term inmates and to other parolees. So do you have any comments rela -- I mean, did you review it?

INMATE DAVIS: You know, I --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Wait, wait. He reviewed the original CRA. I don't think he got a ch -- I just gave him --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh, okay.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: -- a copy of the revised this morning (inaudible)

INMATE DAVIS: The only -- the only comment I'd like to make is, I am completely and wholly 100% absolutely, let there be no doubt, I am responsible for all I did. Nobody made me do anything. Uh, it was nobody else's fault but mine. Nobody shares my guilt in any way -- way. Uh, this idea that I'm deflecting responsibility, well, if I -- I can't say how another person's thinking or how they come to that conclusion, but I certainly don't believe that anybody else was at fault or had any part of the fault of what I did.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I chose this.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right.

INMATE DAVIS: I thought it would get me more of what I wanted, and that's why I did it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: All right. Um, this -- this idea keeps coming up. Well, it -- it -- I tell -- I can't -- I can't explain other people's thoughts, but I hope that it's clear from me today that nobody shares in this but me.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Uh, do you have any --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Commissioner, you've got my objections to the -- the evaluation. Did you get the follow-up letter I sent, uh --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: We have -- well, we have all of it and, um, the -- we have the responses from legal and the miscellaneous decision and everything, yes.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: And you have my response to that?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Yeah, we have -- yeah, your response to that. Let me just check --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Okay, we challenged (inaudible)

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Actually, you know what? We do.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Ms. Neal (phonetic) was supposed to get back to me about that, and she never did, but, um, okay. I just wanted to make sure that it's deemed an ongoing objection.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: And I'll do (inaudible)

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I think that the - - yeah, they've already made the rulings on it, but, um -- yeah, we did get that information. Okay, um, do you have any comments related to the risk assessment?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: I -- I wanted to get your thoughts, sir, on, uh, what the doctor laid out in terms of your personality disorder. In reading that again, uh, she says, uh -- or Dr. Cartman (phonetic) says, I don't know if it's a man or woman, but a diagnosis of other, uh, specified personality disorder with narcissistic and antisochal -- social features is offered. Although some of this antisocialiality appears to have decreased over the years, narcissistic traits have not shown the same trend. For example, what was gleaned from records as well as during the present interview is ongoing grandiosity, a need for admiration and lack of empathy. First, let me ask you, do you agree with the assessment of the doctor in terms of you having those issues?

INMATE DAVIS: I wouldn't disagree.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I mean, you know --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: So you believe you have an ongoing need to --

INMATE DAVIS: (inaudible)

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: I'm -- I'm in the Manson family.

INMATE DAVIS: No. No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. What do you understand ongoing grandiosity to mean?

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I don't -- I don't really understand that very term, but I'll say this, I do what I can to do the right thing. Yes, I -- I would like to be recognized when I'm -- for doing -- for doing the good I'm doing. I like that. I don't like to be not -- I don't like to be downgraded for it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: That doesn't have a humble ring to it, though.

INMATE DAVIS: Well I -- I realize that, uh, and -- but --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Is humility part of your rehabilitation?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, yes it is, but --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Uh -- uh, in what ways are you working at humility? Not service to others but humility.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay, humility for me means that I'm not the center of my life. There are bigger issues in my life than me. And the bigger issue is that I'm trying to help other people. The bigger issues are that there's a bigger world than just my desires. I recognize that --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And you help other people because you want to be recognized for helping other people.

INMATE DAVIS: No.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: That's not what --

INMATE DAVIS: -- no, I don't -- I don't --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: I'm asking you that.

INMATE DAVIS: No. No. I want to help other people because it's right to help. IO wanna help other people because we all need help. I need help.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And the doctor says you have ongoing grandiosity, a need for admiration and a lack of empathy. So let's just break it down one by one. You have ongoing grandiosity.

INMATE DAVIS: What does that mean?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Look at me. Look at all I'm doing. Look who I am. You know, look how great I am. And that can be there in the context of, hey, I'm this famous fellow involved in these famous murders, or I'm this great guy now helping all these poor inmates who have no clue on how to rehabilitate, and I'm such a great guy, and let me show 'em the light.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, well I --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Do you see what --

INMATE DAVIS: -- don't --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- I'm saying?

INMATE DAVIS: -- I don't see myself like that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. How do you see yourself?

INMATE DAVIS: I see myself as just a person who has found something good and -- and I'd like to help other people if they want it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I believe -- I believe they need it. Uh --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: You don't need to call attention to yourself in doing that, do you?

INMATE DAVIS: No. The main thing is that they get the help. I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, do you think you're better than others or you're superior than others --

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- because you can help them? I think that's what --

INMATE DAVIS: I don't think I'm better than they are.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay, the next thing is a need for admiration. Do you think you have a need for admiration?

INMATE DAVIS: I have an appreciation for it, but I don't think that I'm working hard to get -- to get people to appreciate me. Uh, I think I'm working hard because things need to be done that I can do. Uh, I'm able to help. Uh, when I am appreciated, I appreciate it. I'm not fishing for appreciation.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And then how about a lack of empathy. Do you think you have a lack of empathy?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I'm -- I'm growing in empathy. There've been times when I had a lack of empathy, and -- and to say that I have a lack of empathy, I'd say, well, I guess on a total infinite scale, yeah, I don't have total empathy, right? I -- I'm still getting there, but I have a lot more than I've ever had.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: What do you think your current character defects are? Current as you sit here today.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I'm defensive sometimes, just like when the lady mentioned the -- the autopsy or the lack of it. Uh, so -- so I'm defensive. Uh -- uh, sometimes I don't listen too well. That means -- that means that, uh -- uh, I'm more interested sometimes in my own argument than I am in the argument coming at me, I realize that. So I'm -- I'm pra -- I'm -- I practice listening skills. Um -- uh, sometimes I don't realize that it's more important to listen to a person than it is to talk to 'em. Um, so that's a -- that's a definite defect. Uh, sometimes I'm willing to, uh, let things pass that I know are not quite right, but since I don't want to stir the pot, I just let it pass.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: What's an example of that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I see things happening, um, sometimes where people are doing something that I don't think are right, and I don't call 'em on it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Do you ever see things going on in the prison that are against the prison rules, and then you don't report it?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, let's see. I don't report people taking food out of the chow hall. That's against the rules.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: How about drinking or using drugs?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I don't see people using drugs.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Any other -- anything else other than stealing food that you don't report?

INMATE DAVIS: No. I mean --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: But you, when you say you let things pass, I'm trying to get an idea if you mean people doing things that are against the rules or slights against you that you can't let pass.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, you know, one -- one of the things that -- that -- where -- where I have, you know, I -- I guess it's a weakness, is bein' a coward in a way. Uh, like my -- my Christian brothers. Uh, sometimes they say things, do things that, I'm -- I'm guilty as well, and, uh, and I don't call them on it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: You know, I just, I just let it go because I don't want it to disturb our relationship. So I -- I realize that's a defect.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Anything else come to mind?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I'm -- I'm -- I'm good at denial. I have a lot -- I'm a frag -- I -- I understand that I can minimize situations, uh, that I can, uh, let other people take blame. Right? I've done that. I'm getting better, but I realize -- I realize I'm tempted in that. Uh, just avoidance -- avoidance of things. Uh, so I'm -- I'm a -- I'm the most broken person I know, right? I'm the most defective person that I know. Other people, I don't know them, but when I live with myself, I can see my -- I can see my faults.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: That's a pretty lengthy list. I mean, to your credit, I can tell you are doing a moral inventory. Uh, you do it daily?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, sir.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. All right. Do you want me to go ahead and go into post-conviction?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Sure.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Uh, what we're gonna do, sir, is update the record since your last hearing. Um, you know, the primary role of the Deputy Commissioner is to speak to the, uh, post- conviction factors and -- with a primary emphasis on what's happened since your last hearing, but we can go back and talk about old things if you'd like. Um, it's not been that long, obviously, about a year and a half since your last --

INMATE DAVIS: Right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- hearing. Your last hearing was here at CMC on August 27th, 2015, in which you received a grant of parole with recommendations to the panel where you stay disciplinary free, maintain currency of your parole plans, and the date of the governor's reversal letter is January 22nd, 2016. You remain GP custody level II classification, 19 classification points, medium A custody. Your 812, uh, reveals your status as a Manson family member, one nonconfidential enemy. You have, uh, the same two 115s that you've had, the two in 1975 and 1980. Nothing new to talk about there and then the five 128a's, the most recent August 15 of 1992, lying to staff. It doesn't look like anything new in the area of formal education. You have, um, upgrade a number of, uh, times in that area. Uh, the most significant in recent were attending your masters of arts in religion and on June 5th, 1997, and your doctory of -- doctorate of philosophy in religion June 6th of 02 from Bethany Bible College Semin -- and Seminary, and it looks like you, um, graduated summa cum laude on both -- for both degrees. Is that all true, sir?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, sir, it is.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Uh, it looks like you've been involved in PIA Printing, and that still is appearing in SOMS as your, uh, current job title. Um, and it looks like you were doing that as of the time of the last hearing. You, uh, started that job I believe on 02/15/14, and it looks like you, um, have a number of very -- very good work reports. Um, just going through those, um, 10/14 of 15, you had nine exceptional, one above average; 10/15 of 15 was 10 exceptional. And then you had nine exceptional, one above average on 12/27 of 15, 12/30 of 15, 3/15 of 16, 3/26 of 16, 6/9 of 16 and 6/24 of 16, and then the most recent I saw in the file was 10/25 of 16 with 10 exceptional, uh, grades again. So are you still currently assigned in PIA Printing?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. And, uh, you're a full sheet inspector, is that true?

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. W -- um, I wanted to give you the opportunity, um, so it sounds like things are going well with that job?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, it is.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Um, can you, do you want to take a moment and tell about what you do and, um, how you appear to be doing it so well.

INMATE DAVIS: Well it's a -- the -- the little sticker that you get every year from the DMV to put on your license plates, we print. And we print the one that says the month on there, your monthly sticker, and a lot of other -- a lot of other DMV stuff. So that's what we print. And, uh, the full sheets, there's, uh, there's 72 of those images on each sheet, and, uh, so I look at 'em and, uh, if I -- if there's any defect, I see it, mark it and prescribe a replacement for it.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: So you're -- you're quality control and -- and have to look for any, uh --

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Are you lookin' at just color or --

INMATE DAVIS: We're lookin' for, uh -- we're lookin' for color, alignment, clarity, uh, good contrast, uh, straight lines, plumb, square and level, etc., you know.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Well it sounds like that's workin' out real well. I mean, uh, nines and tens all the way through, so, um. Let's see, okay, going through your self-help programming, um, it looks like you've been involved in LTOP, and you were involved in -- as of the last hearing -- in the Criminal Thinking Track of the Long-Term Offenders Program. You had started that 5/9 of 15. Your last hearing was 8/27 of 15. You completed it right after your last hearing, 9/2 of 15. It looks like you were in the TUMI program, uh, 10/10 of 15, and I'm gonna give you the chance to speak to these and how you feel they've been helpful to you if -- if you'd like in just a second, but I'm just trying to get an overview of what you've been involved in --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, sir.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- since the last hearing. Uh, TUMI program 10/10 of 15 through 2/8 of , you, uh, started into the family relationships, uh, LTOP program -- uh, LTOP track, uh, 3/19 of 16 completed that June 28th of 16 and then, uh, most recently completed dina -- denial management track, uh, from 7/2 of 16 to 10/18 of 16. You've also functioned as a life awareness facilitator and worked, um, as a volunteer ex -- instructor with a Protestant Chapel School of the Bible during this timeframe. Is there anything I'm missing, uh, that occurred during this timeframe since the last hearing, sir?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I've been in AA.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: You've continued with AA?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I'm -- I'm sure it's on the SOMS record. Um, and -- uh, I'm a -- I'm in the Yokefellows program as a -- I'm a -- a moderator in the classes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: You're a mentor, you mean?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, well, they call it -- the -- the name they use in Yokefellows is moderator.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: But it's the same thing.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Moderator. Okay. I know you've been in that a while, and, uh, I see it has you ongoing in AA as well.

INMATE DAVIS: Or AVP.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Is AV -- was that since the last hearing?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, no. I haven't been in AVP this year.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Yeah, I -- I don't think that was --

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: -- teaching the School of the Bible, right?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Yes.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, he -- he mentioned that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Yeah, I mentioned that. Okay, um, why don't you take a moment, if you would, and you can speak to all your self-help collectively or pick out specific programs. Obviously what we're interested in is how you're using, and -- and I think you spoke to AA already, but, um, how those programs have impacted you, how they've been helpful in your rehabilitation. I always wanna get people the --

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- opportunity to speak to that.

INMATE DAVIS: Well the first, uh, first of the, uh, LTOP programs I had was, uh, Victim Awareness, and, uh, that -- that helped, uh, in this. Um, they have a very well-engineered class, and they showed us, uh, videos, and they start off with, uh -- um, somethin' like a lady got her purse snatched, right? And then it escalates a little to a person got assaulted. And then it escalates to, uh, a home invasion and a rape. And then it escalates to a murder, and (inaudible) . And as we looked at it, ev -- I've -- at least for me, and I believe everybody in the class, uh, at first, uh, it -- it -- people are in for murder, when they talk about somebody had their purse snatched, it seems like a little less, so it didn't seem like such a bad crime. It's bad, but it's not quite as bad as murder. But as the program went through, we began -- I began to identify with the victim more, and then the last part of the program was, now put yourself, and -- and the people you murdered in this scenario, and having identified with the victims all through the program, when it came to the Hinman and Shea family, man, I had never identified with them so much, because I -- we talked about how the families are affected financially, spiritually, socially, psychologically, medically, all these things that -- that the crime has to do with individuals that are hurt and how it's a huge ripple effect. They never get over it. And, uh, it really -- it really brought it home. Like, I had seen it before, but it -- but this really put another gear into it, and, uh, so that was -- that was probably the most impactful, um, track of, uh, all the -- fortunately, I got it first, and it made the rest of the things more meaningful, too. Uh, but that was, uh, that was the best, the most -- the most profitable. And, uh --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: All right. And then what classes have you been involved in teaching with the School of the Bible?

INMATE DAVIS: Um, I've teachin' the, um, Books of the Bible, uh, Matthew, John, Matthew James, uh, Hebrews, uh, the Old Testament. Uh -- uh -- uh, courses on, uh -- uh, church history, uh, prophecies, the life of Christ, um, aspects of the keys of the kingdom of God, um, the spiritual warfare of the cozmi -- uh, conflicts of good and evil. Um -- uh, classes on prayer. Uh -- um, lots of -- lots of 'em.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. And, um, you mentioned earlier part of, uh, your giving back or making amends or attempting to make amends is trying to impact other people, other inmates in here, and is that one where you're doin' it by trying to expose them to these bible areas and -- and how it can help them to grow, or --

INMATE DAVIS: Um, that's right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: The main thing I'm gonna do is, I just want to give them something that stimulates their curiosity so they study for themselves and -- and have a personal relationship with the lord on their own, right? But that's my goal.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: All right, uh, anything else you want to mention about your self-help, or -- and we can move onto your parole plans.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, let's see. Uh, TUMI was -- TUMI is a great program. It's kind of a higher-level thing. Uh, a little more rigor to do it. Uh, that was good. I -- I -- I stayed in it for a while. I -- I -- it was mostly repetition for me, so, but I appreciate what they're doing. I'm really glad they're doing it. Uh, I think -- I think the most impactful parts of the self-help parts is gotta be AA -- AA and -- and, uh, LTOP. I really, really liked LTOP. It's the best thing that, uh -- that CDC ever provided since I been in it, and it's good, really good. And, uh, I encouraged the guys, well they don't have to be encouraged very much, they find out how good it is. People are trying to come here from all over the state just to take it, and that's good.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: All right, sir, um, if you're given a parole date, uh, what would be your first choice in where you would go to reside?

INMATE DAVIS: Well my first -- I -- I'm, uh, accepted into Francisco Home, LA.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And that would be your first choice?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay, and we do have a letter here.

INMATE DAVIS: I have an updated letter.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Well, the most recent I have is 12/13 of 16, so that's pretty --

INMATE DAVIS: That's fairly --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- updated.

INMATE DAVIS: -- fairly updated.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Yeah.

INMATE DAVIS: That's the one I have.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: That's the, uh, Francisco Homes in Los Angeles. That's dated December 13, 2016, and, uh, it is a letter of acceptance into that program. You also -- well, lemme ask you this. In terms of supporting yourself, do you know if you would be eligible for, um, SSI or -- wh -- do you have a plan for supporting yourself?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. I have -- I have some social security.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Social Security.

INMATE DAVIS: An, uh, that's a start.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. And it seems like you're capable of working, huh? You're working in the print plant right, uh, now.

INMATE DAVIS: I can -- I can -- I can't do physical jobs like I used to, but I can -- I can do quality control. I'm good at that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Do you have any, uh, job offers or wh -- what's your plan in that regard?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, well, you know, uh, Francisco Home, they really, they're involved with the community, and they say they have a whole list of people that, uh, that hire people, uh, you know, um, parolees.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Okay, there's a letter dated January 12th, 2017, from Ernesto Thompson --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: -- and, uh, is he also -- is he a former inmate?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, he is.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. And it looks like a nice letter of general support. It looks like he's known you about 11 years and, uh, you impacted him. Describes you as a brother in Christ and -- and, uh, nice letter of general support. A, uh, letter, uh, from another, uh, individual by the name of Michael Lindley (phonetic). He also is a former, uh, inmate, sir?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, sir.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: He's in Bakersfield, it looks like.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes. Bakersfield.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: And, uh, he wrote you a nice letter of general support it looks like. He's known you for quite a while, and -- and his is a lengthy letter, a three-page letter of general support. It's -- it was kind of -- I -- I read this letter, and, um, without getting too, uh -- take up too much time on the record -- just, he was having trouble with people that were always picking on him in prison, and you suggested he pray for those people. Is that true?

INMATE DAVIS: That would be a good suggestion. I don't know who you're talking about here.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Michael Lindley.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Lindley.

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, Michael, yeah. I -- well, I don't remember the -- the incident. That would've been a long time ago.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: But I can imagine doin' that.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: All right. Well he -- he wrote about that, which I thought was nice. Uh, Eden Ministries in Canyon Country, uh, there's a letter from them, uh, dated September 15th, 2016, signed by Reverend James Cliffe, last name C-L-I-F-F-E, who's the president and it looks like a nice general --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: That's also a transitional home.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Oh, is that a transitional also?

INMATE DAVIS: But we're not talkin' about bein' transitioned there. He is a friend of mine.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Well that's a backup.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah. It would be a possibility.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Reference in (inaudible) and serving communion. Uh, it -- it doesn't -- I don't think in the language of the letter mention that, does it?

INMATE DAVIS: Mention what?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: That -- that it's a transitional program.

INMATE DAVIS: Well, it is a transitional program, but, but --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: It was in a prior.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Yup.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: I know that I talked to him a few months ago, and it's an off --

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: -- it's open to him, but. Oh wait a minute, no, I apologize Commissioner, that was -- that was an offer that was open two years ago, and then the press got hold of it, and he couldn't do it. That's right.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: I apologize.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: It's a nice letter of general support. There's a letter from Sherry Helms (phonetic), who's in Victoria, Texas. It looks like a - - a letter of general support. How'd you meet Ms. Helms?

INMATE DAVIS: She wrote to me.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Is -- is she one of the people in your earlier discussion with the Commissioner, how would you best describe your relationship with her -- or writing friendship or however you'd want to describe it?

INMATE DAVIS: We're sort of, we've decided we're siblings.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. How long have the two of you been writing?

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, I guess over a year.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Maybe a couple years.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: It says she'd be willing to help in other ways, material, money -- material things or money. Uh, but again, it's back in Texas, and then there's a letter from a Matthew Genovese, last name is G-E-N-O-V-E-S-E. That letter is dated October 16th, 2016. Um, Mr. Genovese lives in San Diego. He's in the military. Apparently had written about you or how you'd changed your life while being incarcerated. He wrote to you, and then, uh, the two of you have written back and forth since late 2009, and he lites -- writes you a letter of general support. That's the ones that I had. Was there anything else?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: I don't think so.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay. Anything else you wanted to mention about your parole plans, Mr. Davis?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, let's see. Um, I think when I go to Francisco Homes, they're gonna help me find employment. Um, they'll get me involved in, uh, they have an AA program. That's important. And, um, help me be, uh -- you know, to get back on my feet. Get -- get acclimatized to the culture out there.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Um, do you have, like, a Relapse Prevention Plan? You've probably done those in the past --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: I don't know.

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Are they --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: It's in the record.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Okay, it's in the record. Okay, um, I think with that, then, I'm gonna go ahead and defer back to the chair.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, thank you.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Um-hm.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right, so I think the big question here is, um -- I mean, when you look at your history, there's no history of violence individu -- perpetrating violence individually on anybody -- juvenile, before you, eh -- eh, engaged in Manson, and while you've been in prison. So the big issue for you is when you, um -- when you get influenced by others and you feel this need for acceptance, because that's ultimately what you became attracted to with the Manson family, and so how are you going to refrain from that outside of prison? And that meaning getting involved with people possibly that are negative or, um, maybe because of your notoriety and then, you know, and then getting into that space where you're starting to feel good about yourself and then you want their approval and then -- which could lead to, uh, possibly a path of, um, going back or reverting back. So how are you gonna avoid that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well I'm going to avoid that like death. I am already -- my acceptance level, now -- I am already accepted by God. I'm forgiven by Christ, so on a -- on a cosmic level, let's just get to there first, paint the big picture, I feel completely accepted. Okay, now, the humans I'm around, I feel completely accepted by the ones I like. The -- the Christians -- the people who are goin' the right way, they accept me. I'm good. I don't have to work for their acceptance. I don't have to work for it, because they -- we accept each other because we're -- we're in -- in the same mindset. So I'm not looking to gain acceptance from individuals, and I certainly would reject any kind of, uh, an invitation for people that are in -- in a criminal lifestyle or any -- even a non -- a nonsocial lifestyle, antisocial lifestyle. I don't want that. I -- I want to be -- I want to be, uh -- uh, associated with people whose number one, um, priority, at least socially, is public safety. That's what I'm interested in, because I have a family out there who I want to be safe, so I'm -- I am totally against anything that goes against public safety. And -- and if individuals come - - come to me with ideas of, uh, any antisocial behavior, drugs and alcohol, uh, things that are not healthy, I'm not with that. I'm -- I'm -- I'm -- I've given -- I don't do that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: And I've been away from it for a long, long time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Do you think you'll be tempted to use any drugs or alcohol?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not tempted.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: How (inaudible)

INMATE DAVIS: You know, here -- here's -- here's as far as my temptation goes. Sometimes on TV when I see liquor, I can taste it. I remember how it tastes, but I -- I wouldn't drink it, cause I saw what it led to.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, okay, so you said that one of your character defects is defensiveness. We saw it kind of -- we saw it come out today, and I have to say, I was surprised, but the thing is, uh, you know, there's -- I mean, you -- you have tons of opposition to your parole, you know that --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- uh, right?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes, ma'am.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Um, and so, people aren't -- I mean, there's gonna be tons of people that would not accept you --

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- being released.

INMATE DAVIS: That's right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And there are -- are going to be people that challenge you --

INMATE DAVIS: Um-hm.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- on all sorts of things --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- even if, you know -- even just, uh, you know, everybody gets challenged, but, uh, especially --

INMATE DAVIS: Oh yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- in your particular situation --

INMATE DAVIS: Absolutely.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- right? Um, and so, you know -- I mean, you have to handle it appropriately, so --

INMATE DAVIS: Right.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- be -- so how are you going to handle it if -- if just little prodding here starts to set you off?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, that's a good question. One of the things that I've decided never -- and I don't do now -- well I did there, and I -- I want -- I'd like to say somethin' -- but I don't defend myself. Uh, like, you're wrong, I'm right. Uh -- uh, people make -- well, people don't make a lot of bad comments to me here, cause I'm -- I'm not doing anything to merit it in a general way, right? But I -- I -- I get letters, as you know -- you know, and it is sad. But I don't feel like writing them a letter back, you know, I just wanna set you straight, blah, blah, blah. I don't -- I don't do that. Uh, it's sa -- it -- it hurts when people say bad things, but I -- I'm not quick to defend myself.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but -- all right, but, up -- on the outside, it's gonna be different, because --

INMATE DAVIS: Oh, I -- I --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- it's not gonna be a letter --

INMATE DAVIS: No, I know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Right? I --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- mean, that's what I'm get -- have you thought about these --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes I have.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- things? How are you gonna handle 'em, because --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- it's --

INMATE DAVIS: I've thought about --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- real.

INMATE DAVIS: -- it. Uh, here's what I've -- here's -- here's my decision to now -- to up to now. I -- I know there'll be negative, especially media stuff, and no tellin' from what individuals. We don't know. We don't know who's thinking what or what they're gonna do. Who knows, right? Anything can happen at any time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, but how are you going to handle the defensiveness like in the then when it's happening.

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Are you gonna --

INMATE DAVIS: -- first thing, I'm not going to physically defend myself. That's rule number one. And the second thing, I'm goin' to -- I'm makin' a commitment to myself not even to defend myself verbally. When they say, you were involved in that, I'm gonna say, I'm really sorry about that, and I hope I can -- I hope I can help -- be a help to the situation.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, and -- and based on what we saw today, are we supposed to believe that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, lemme say --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Here -- here was a trigger, and -- and -- and you were right on it and good, and I'm glad you did. This thing about Mr. Shea's bein' dismembered, you know, I -- I got -- when I got sentenced, I had special circumstances because of dismemberment. I never -- I never -- I didn't testify at my trial. I didn't say anything. And so that was just an ongoing part of the -- the narrative, that Mr. Shea had been dismembered, so, in about 1976 or 77 when Mr. Grogan became eligible for parole, he -- he was the burial party for Mr. Shea, and to my knowledge, he's the only one that knew where Mr. Shea's body was, so when the parole board, uh, when he got ready to go, he decided, and ever -- everybody agreed, he should tell 'em where the body is. So he did. So he -- he took -- he took the officers to the body, they had the, uh -- they had the exhumation or however you say, and -- and an autopsy. And -- and the autopsy was that Mr. Shea had not been -- there was no signs of torture or -- or, um - - or dismemberment. So about a year later, well, about the same time, they gave me a special hearing, a special parole hearing, and took the special circumstances off, and they made quite a deal out of it, as they should. So when that keeps coming up as if we cut Mr. Shea into pieces, even though I bragged and lied about it, and I'm certainly sorry I did that, and it was wrong, and it was part of my grandiosity as you say, and that was true, I wanted to be somebody, I wanted to have a reputation and all that, I -- so -- so that's true. And when you brought it up like that, I said, I wanna straighten you out. I mean, that's how I felt.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: But -- but, okay, and I get that, but it's not gonna go away.

INMATE DAVIS: No, I know it.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right? That's what I'm trying to get at.

INMATE DAVIS: Okay.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I mean, all of these things, regardless of -- it's not gonna go away.

INMATE DAVIS: No, I know it isn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So if you can't -- you can't deal with things like that. You've got to --

INMATE DAVIS: And you're right, but you know what? I believe when it comes -- when -- when I'm out and it comes up, it's not going to be an -- an important situation like this. It won't have the significance as this. This is a highly significant, highly stressful, important situation, right now. And -- and so I'm kinda geared up on that because of the situation. I think when it -- when it comes to -- to a public reaction, I'm gonna be able to -- I'm -- I can already see, it's over. In other words, what they're sayin', yeah, they're sayin' it, they're feelin' it, but -- but -- but their opinion is not gonna have nearly the impact on me as yours does.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: So -- so I think I'll be able to lay back and -- and just -- just apologize. And that's all -- that's what -- that's what the public has comin' from me is a big apology in every way that I can.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. Any other questions?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: No. Thank you, though.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: All right. Any questions from you?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Can we take a break?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh sure, yeah.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: (inaudible) do that for a long time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Sure. Uh, 12:14. We'll go off the record.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: We're off the record. We're back on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: We're back on the record. 12:29 p.m. All parties that were present prior to the recess are present now. Do you have any questions?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you, Commissioner Fritz. Yes, I do. Could the panel please ask the inmate why he used a fake ID to buy the gun?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Why did you use a fake ID to buy the gun?

INMATE DAVIS: I know this sounds stupid, but I just did it because I could.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the panel please ask the inmate what he means by that?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What do you mean by that?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What do you mean by that?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, I knew that we were all involved in things that were potentially very illegal, and I had the ignorant misconception that I could avoid any kind of connection if I had another ID.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you. Um, could the panel please ask the inmate if he bought into the concept of living in a hole in the desert to survive?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you buy in -- that's that whole thing that you were gonna go hide out, um, while the race war was happening, did you buy into the fact that you were gonna be living in a hole in the desert?

INMATE DAVIS: No, I didn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the panel please ask why, then, he was fixing the dune buggies to get them to the hole?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Wh -- why were you fixing the dune buggies, then, if you didn't --

INMATE DAVIS: Charlie asked me to, uh, help him build the dune buggies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: So you did it.

INMATE DAVIS: So I did it.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Did the inmate know what the dune buggies were for?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you know what they were for?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, for us, they were just for ridin' around in.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you know they were gonna be used to be --

INMATE DAVIS: Well --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- go to --

INMATE DAVIS: -- that was --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- a hole in the desert?

INMATE DAVIS: We had -- we had ridden up in -- into the desert before, but now the hole was something that was a complete mystery. It didn't exist, as far as I know, and so the hole was just a magical mystery tour.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Were -- were the dune buggies gonna be used for when you went out to the desert --

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- and lived alone?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You knew that.

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: Cause we drove 'em in the desert before.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well I'm talking about when you would leave during the race wars. You knew the dune buggies were gonna be going with you?

INMATE DAVIS: I didn't know if that would ever happen.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: You didn't know if that would ever happen --

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- but did you know that's what the dune buggies were for?

INMATE DAVIS: That's what they said they were for.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I hear you.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the panel please ask what the inmate's understanding was of why he was called back to Gary Hinman's house.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Do you -- what was your understanding of that -- of why -- why you were being called back the second time?

INMATE DAVIS: The -- the message on the phone I heard was Gary is not cooperating.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So what did that mean to you?

INMATE DAVIS: Charlie got the message, evidently, and he said, come one, we're gonna go back to Gary's.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you know what you were gonna do?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Oh.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: If -- if the intent was to get money from Gary, did the inmate have any reason to believe that he wouldn't be called back within an hour after Gary gave 'em the money? Why did it take two days?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well did -- was there any type of -- did you have an understanding of when the first time you dropped off the group to get the money from Gary that -- that it was only going to take a few hours or that you'd be back that same day, or -- or?

INMATE DAVIS: I had really no expectations on a timeframe.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Were you surprised that you didn't get a call after a few hours, that it was a couple days later or?

INMATE DAVIS: No.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No? Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: I -- I wasn't really thinking about that.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: When you got the gun from Bobby Bo -- when the inmate got the gun from Bobby Beausoleil to make sure that the gun wouldn't be further used, did he take any bullets out of the gun or unload the chamber?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you take the bullets out or unload it?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh -- uh, there was not -- there was not a bullet in the chamber. It was not unloaded. The clip was still in the gun, but there wasn't, uh -- there wasn't a bullet in the chamber.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did you pull the clip out?

INMATE DAVIS: No --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

INMATE DAVIS: -- the -- the clip was still in the gun.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: During the Shea murder, who was the driver of the car you were in?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Do you recall who the driver was?

INMATE DAVIS: The Shea murder? Donald Shea.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I'm sorry?

INMATE DAVIS: Donald Shea was the driver.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Okay, and why did you brag about dismembering Donald Shea?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Objection. That's already been asked and answered multiple times.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: It -- it has been asked and answered.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: The inmate told the panel that he thought that the Tate murders were part of a, um, a problem with Terry Melcher. Did the inmate think that the Labianca's murders were part of the dispute with Terry Melcher?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you think the same thing?

INMATE DAVIS: No, not at all.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the panel please ask what the inmate's understanding of the writings on the wall at the Tate residence were?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well did you know about the writings on the wall at the Tate residence?

INMATE DAVIS: I heard that there were some.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: And did you know specifically what they said or what it looked like or anything like that? Did you come to find that out?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, you know, I've seen photographs. They said this was where the writing was. I really didn't -- I don't remember seeing specifically what it said.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the panel please ask how the inmate reconciled all the bloodshed and slaughter with his need to have sex with women?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Objection. That's -- it's mischaracterizes his testimony, and he's already answered these questions over and over and over.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Can you rephrase it?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Did the inmate have any idea that the gravity of murder outweighed his need to have romantic relationships with women?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Do you understand the question?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: I still don't understand the question.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I think what she's trying to say -- I think what a lot of people are trying to grapple with is that you were -- you know, a lot of this was for women, hangin' out with Manson and how can you reconcile that with all of the murders that were taking place?

INMATE DAVIS: Well, the fact that I cared little about myself made me care little about anybody else. So I didn't really appreciate the difference.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: The people that wrote to the inmate in prison, uh, that he became friends with, um, could the panel please ask what the inmate thought -- why these people wrote to him in the first place?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Did you think about why they were writing to you in the first place?

INMATE DAVIS: Uh, sometimes they were very specific why they were writing.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. So why were they writing you, do you know?

INMATE DAVIS: Well sometimes -- sometimes people would say something like, oh man, I bet you guys were really cool in the desert, la la la. And they're -- they're talking like they really -- these are children - - kids. They weren't even alive when this happened, and they're -- they're caught up with it. So I write 'em back, and I say, be careful what you do. Look, the -- the bait is more fun than the hook. Don't go after this stuff. This was a very stupid, terrible, wicked thing we did, and I'm so sorry.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Any other questions?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Yes. When was the last time the inmate had contact with Tex Watson?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: When's the last -- I think you s --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: He already said 1992.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I think he said the 90s, right?

INMATE DAVIS: 92.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Was Tex Watson you best man at your wedding?

INMATE DAVIS: Yes.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Was -- he was. Okay, just wait till I.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I'm sorry. Could the panel please ask --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. He answered.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: And could the panel please ask if Tex Watson's wife was the maid of honor at this inmate's wedding?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Was she the --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What is the possible relevance of this?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Uh, I think --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: It happened in the 80s.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well, I think she's trying to establish a relationship. So was she the maid of honor at your wedding? Mr. Watson's wife?

INMATE DAVIS: Very well may. Uh, they were both there. He was the best man. She was there. I don't remember. You know, it wasn't really my goal to make somebody the maid of honor. This -- I don't know. Maybe my wife had something to do with it. I'm not saying she wasn't. I'm not saying she wasn't.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. I mean, she either was or she wasn't.

INMATE DAVIS: Well.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the panel please ask, um, did Manson treat the inmate as an equal during the entire time he lived at the ranch?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Well that's what you said. You felt like it was the entire time?

INMATE DAVIS: I felt like that.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Okay. And could the panel please ask what the inmate thinks about Charles Manson today?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: What do you think about Manson today?

INMATE DAVIS: I think he's a very bad, sad case.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the inmate please --

INMATE DAVIS: I'm not finished. What do I think about Manson? I wish -- I wish we'd never met. I wish he'd never done what he did. I feel sorry that I went for that. Uh, I feel betrayed by him in the fact that I was manipulated to some degree, not that -- not that he caused me to do things, I did it, but so I -- I feel bad about Manson.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: My last question, could the panel please ask the inmate when the, um, Victim Awareness Track, when he took the Victim Awareness Track in the LTOP program?

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Do you remember when you took the Victim Awareness?

INMATE DAVIS: Not exactly.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: I think it might - - it will show up on a chrono.

INMATE DAVIS: It's probably on the record there.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I have no further questions.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: It ended May 8, 2015.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Ended? Okay, thank you.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Or he got a chrono dated May 8, 2015. That's when it ended. 1/23 of 15 through May 15.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. Okay, any questions for your client?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: A couple. Okay, Mr. Davis, in addition to the responsibility that you take for the murders of Gary Hinman and Donald Shea, do you take responsibility for anything else that the Manson family did?

INMATE DAVIS: Yeah, I take responsibility for this. I stayed with 'em. I never objected. Um, my very presence, always wanted to be that guy, was enough to -- told everybody that what was goin' on was fine with me. So it encouraged them to do what they did.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: You're talking about everything they did?

INMATE DAVIS: Whatever they did. Yeah, the whole thing. Because I -- I stood there, I defended it in my own lame way, and, um, even, you know, bragged about things I didn't even do. And -- and that encouraged other people to -- into more criminality. So yeah, I -- I influenced them, and so I'm responsible to the degree I -- and I influenced them. So I'm responsibility for what they did.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Okay. Nothing further.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. Closing statements?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: We're here today for a de novo hearing, and despite the fact that the hearing primarily centered on the issues discussed by the governor, we are here today for de novo hearing, and because this is a de novo hearing, the panel is -- has the opportunity, the ability and the duty to find Mr. Davis unsuitable if this panel feels that he is an unreasonable risk of danger in the community based upon what he has said here today. The panel is not, um -- there -- there's no -- there's no rule that says that the panel has to go, uh, and find the same finding of unsuitability just because previous panels have found this inmate unsuitable. And the District Attorney's office feels that the inmate has presented himself here today such that this panel can find this inmate unsuitable for parole for the following reasons. The first reason is, as the governor explained in his letter, that this case does present one of those rare circumstances that Lawrence describes. Now, today, we were really only talking about the two murders of Gary Hinman and Donald Shea, but as the inmate said at the end, he is responsible for all of the murders because by his actions in acting as the enforcer at the Hinman residence, by holding the gun, and he -- the inmate said, well I simply held the gun, I'm gonna get into all this minimization in just a moment, but, just overall by him acting as the enforcer by setting all of the actions into motion by first trying to get the money to fund the activities to accomplish Helter Skelter is not just simply aiding and abetting, it is perpetrating the entire series of events that occurred. And because these -- the Gary Hinman murder set in motion all of the murders, that this does make this situation fall under the Lawrence standard. Now, the, um, Title 15 California Code of Regulations talks about the elements, um, for the panel to consider to determine whether or not this inmate currently represents a risk -- uh, an unreasonable risk of danger, and some of the factors that go toward the Lawrence decision and go toward the Lawrence rationale are that, number one, that the crime was especially heinous, atrocious or cruel, and I'm not talking about just the Hinman and Shea murders but all of them because it's our position that this inmate is responsible for all as he has told you that he is -- that he feels that he is. So, Title 15, um, especially heinous, atrocious or cruel commitment offense. Um, secondly, the victim, uh, Mr. Hinman, was abused, defiled or mutilated during the offense, and the inmate showed a callous disregard for human suffering. Next, the Shea murder followed on the heels of prior acts of extreme violence against multiple victims. Now, I'd like to get into, um, some of the issues that the governor raised. Number one, the heinousness of the crimes. I'm not going to recite all the facts of the crimes. We're all very well aware of how many people were brutally murdered and brutally slaughtered during this -- these few months in Los Angeles, but I would like to get into the inmate's minimization of his role in these crimes. Number one, he told you today that this -- that everything that set his -- his behavior into motion was because his father said God damn you so many times during his young life, and as the panel pointed out, the inmate's not a religious man, people curse all the time, and it wasn't like he went to church every day, and at that point of his life, he wasn't so religious, and so why would that have such a big effect? Well, again, it's part of not necessarily the minimization but his grandiosity that was noted by the clinician in the 2016 CRA. Now the -- the panel also pointed out, and -- and I noticed it, too, that this inmate has some sort of an affect, and it's not observable at all in a transcript, but it's observable here in this room, and the affect is that he sort of smiled and -- and was sort of, um, jovial about all of his past criminal acts and all of his past minor, uh, discretions like, um, when he committed the insurance fraud, when he caused the fire of the school, when he caused the school to burn down, when he was talking about his extensive use of LSD. All of the incidences that this inmate talked about were peppered by this strange affect that it appeared -- as the panel noted -- that he thought it was funny. And maybe he didn't, but this is what it appears to be. And if this inmate's plan is to go out and minister people, these people could very well have the same impression that we had here, that this is like a funny thing that he's not really taking very seriously, and that's dangerous, because if he is to spread the word of whatever it is that he's going to spread, that his impact upon the people that he thinks is going to be so important may be important, but it's going to be important for the wrong reasons. Now, again, in -- in light of the minimization that the governor was concerned about, the inmate talked about his jaunts in Europe, and the jaunt in Europe as he told you was to study Scientology, and the reason that the study of Scientology is so important here is because Manson was very into Scientology at the time. He was into a lot of different phil -- philosophies, and a lot of the different, um, non-mainstream religions, and as the inmate told you, he wanted to be accepted by Manson. So what did he do? He took -- he went all the way -- he spent his father's inheritance to go all the way to Europe to gain education about the Scientology so that he could be accepted by Manson, and when he says, well, you know, I just happened to come back to LA, he didn't just happen to come back to LA, Charles Manson personally picked him up from the airport, and that is in evidence in all of the evidence that is shown in this case. So it's -- so in that respect, his -- he's even minimizing how it is that he came to be back in LA with Charles Manson. Now let's talk about Gary Hinman. He said, I held -- I just simply held the gun, but when he demonstrated how he held the gun, it was a simulation of holding someone at gunpoint. It was thumb up toward the chin. It was the, um, finger cocked, bent halfway across the chest, and it was simulating point a gun at someone. Now he tells you, well, you know, everyone -- they were just -- they had this plan, and there were gonna get money from Gary Hinman, but later on in the hearing, he told you, really, the truth. It's, like, he -- he peels away at these layers like an onion but doesn't reveal anything up front candidly. So what did he say? Well, it wasn't that he was just going to get money from Gary Hinman. He later told you, well, it was really going to be, we were going to make him an offer that he couldn't refuse. And what does that tell you? That tells you that there was gonna be violence. That tells you there was gonna be threats. That tells you that they meant business. And it wasn't like, well, Gary's got some money, and let's just go see, and oh, yeah, we'll just invite him into the family. That's not the way it is, and so for this inmate not to be candid with this panel after all this time, after all of these reversals by the governor, after all of these opinions, all of these panel decisions, it's -- it -- he has not - - he doesn't get it. Now, um, he also tells you that he took Gary Hinman's car because he wanted to get away from this bloody violence. Well, he had a car. He could have gotten away in his own car. He took Gary's car because they didn't get any money from him, and therefore they figured if that car had money -- uh, value, that they could sell the car. And that's the reason he took Gary Hinman's car, not because he just was so disgusted by all of this blood. Now, let's talk about the gun that he used, uh, to -- to enforce the murder of Gary Hinman. First of all, he purchased the gun under a false name. He had told the panel initially that, well, everyone was -- everyone had a gun, so he just wanted to be like everybody else. But it wasn't until I asked him about the gun, when he purchased it under a fake name, he finally told you, well, I knew that there was gonna be something illegal going on. Why didn't he say that at the beginning? Because he doesn't fess up to anything until pressed to do so. Now, let's talk about the murder of, uh, Donald Shea. He said he didn't get out of the car until Manson came in a separate car a little after. That is directly contrary to the testimony at the trial by Ruby Pearl that is, um, referenced in the central file, and that is also directly contrary to the letter in the central file at page 3449 from Barbara Hoyt, who, uh, submitted a letter -- uh, a fellow family member who submitted a letter for a few, um, hearings back that is still contained in the central file. Now, he minimized his role in that murder by saying he sat in the car as long as possible and didn't get out, but, in fact, he was part of the group that surrounded Donald Shea when Donald Shea was hit over the head and he was murdered. Again, not coming clean despite after all of these instructions by all of the previous panels and the governor, still can't do it. In talking about, and again, the comprehensive -- er, yeah, the Comprehensive Risk Assessment is replete with examples such as this, um, when the clinician was trying to get information from this inmate. A half-truth is still a lie, and if the panel is to assess the inmate's credibility, credibility is a factor and is an element that the panel can look at in determining the current risk of dangerousness. Another issue that the governor had was the inmate's insight. The inmate told us several times he didn't care about himself, so he couldn't care about others, but how you can stand by and watch people slaughtered and brutalized and bloodied without having some form of human compassion, I don't think that the inmate has gotten to the level where he can even explain that. It's still inexplicable. It's still not understandable how you can let this level of violence go just because you wanna feel accepted and, uh, romantically, uh, attractive. Now, let's talk about the -- the lecture tour for just a moment. The inmate vehemently denies that he ever said anything about a lecture tour to the clinician, but I think that that can be reconciled just by an understanding of vernacular, or choice of words. He might not have called it a lecture tour, but what he explained to the panel here was that he wanted to go out and mentor people, and he couldn't understand, you look at his face -- that -- it's not on -- gonna be on the transcript, but we all looked at his face.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Not all of us.

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Most of us looked at his face and saw the puzzlement with Commissioner Fritz was asking him about the harm it could cause to other people, and he couldn't -- he could not comprehend that, and I think that that's a problem. Again, he's been told this time and time again but doesn't understand the harm that it could cause.

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Neither do I.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay, you can't make comments. You'll have your time at --

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: I know.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: -- when you make your argument. Okay?

DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Now I've attended several of these -- not these hearings but hearing involving other Manson family members, and in every hearing that Anthony DiMaria attends, he talks about, and gives an example about, children who have killed other people because they modeled it on the Manson family and the Manson facts, and this is still going on currently today, and even though this inmate was not personally involved in the murders at the Tate residence or the Labianca residence, you say the word Manson, and it invokes feelings of -- they run the gamut, and because all of these feelings run the gamut, whether there's crazy supporters or ardent opponents, it doesn't matter, it evokes an emotion, and for him to go out and not understand that the word Manson evokes emotion and would not create harm is unfathomable, and if he believes that he was insulated because he was only involved in the Hinman murder and only involved in the Shea murder, I think that's such, um, a showing that he still has no idea about the insight, no idea about the impact, and that is a risk that can be considered when determining current dangerousness. If you look at the Comprehensive Risk Assessment from 2016, the language that the inmate uses to the clinician when he talks about the Hinman thing, the Shea thing, these weren't things, these were murders. These were bloody, brutal, atrocious, cruel, sadistic murders. They are not a thing, and that -- those words can be found on page 12 of the 2006 and page 10 of 2016 CRAs. The inmate once, you know, he has a lot of training in bible study, he, uh, disseminates the word of God, he calls himself a Christian, but I don't see how someone who calls himself a Christian cannot understand the harm that he will create by going out and speaking about these horrific crimes. And just lastly, this -- this really wasn't, um, an element brought up by the governor, but it -- it is -- was an element that was brought up by the clinician about his grandiosity and narcissism, and I would just like to invite the panel to review the discussion that the inmate had with the panel about, uh, his being convicted for a special circumstance murder. Now, this inmate says that one of his, um, character deficts -- defects is that he's a braggart, and he bragged about dismembering Donald Shea, and for him to come to the panel and be teary eyed and ask for the panel's sympathy that he was convicted of a special circumstance murder based upon his own conduct and his own statements that he made is another example of his narcissism, because despite the fact that the body was eventually found, he wants you to feel sorry for him because of his own conduct, his own bragging that got him into this position. Nobody else got him into this position. He tells you that some of his character defects are to let things go. He doesn't report, um, people stealing food, and I can understand that, that's a security risk for himself here in prison, but if he's willing to let things go and not say anything and not -- not stand up, then what if he sees a crime out -- outside when he's -- when he's not here in prison? What if he sees a crime? He's gonna let that go? He told the panel he was combative with the panel because it was something that was here that was very stressful when the panel started speaking about the dismemberment, and Commissioner Fritz, you -- you pointed out there's gonna be a lot of stressful things out there. There might be someone getting in his face, pointing in his face, really, really close, aggravating him, you murderer, you murderer, and that's not stressful? And he's not gonna fight back for that? I think that he has shown the panel here that he still represents a current risk of dangerousness, even though the -- the panel has pinpointed all of the issues that the governor was concerned with, and he has shown you that he is still not ready. And for those reasons, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office is opposed to any finding of suitability.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. Mr. Beckman?

ATTORNEY BECKMAN: Thank you, Commissioner. Bruce Davis is a political prisoner at this point, plain and simple. Despite the fact that on January 28th, 2010, October 4th, 2012, March 12, 2014, and again on August 27th, 2015, the board ignored political sir -- considerations and obeyed the law by finding Bruce Davis suitable for parole at his 28th -- at his 29th, 30th, 31st and 32nd subsequent hearings, political considerations alone force us again to have to plead for that which should be a given, that Bruce Davis has rehabilitated himself in prison, and he should again be found suitable for parole. Rather than reiterate all the reasons why he is suitable and why the governor's reason for reversing his four parole grants, which are pretty much the same from reversal to reversal, I'm going to incorporate by reference by closing arguments from the 2010, 2012, 2014 and 2015 hearings. I'm simply gonna say that the governor's statement that Bruce Davis's actions demonstrate that he fully bought into the Manson family's Helter Skelter beliefs is completely opposite to the evidence. The evidence shows otherwise. Bruce Davis's role was in two of the homicides. He did not go out in the -- as the DA would call it, the signature murders of the Manson (inaudible) he had nothing to do with them. Despite the fact he takes responsibility for them, he had nothing to do with them. There is no evidence whatsoever that he bought into any of the Manson family's horrific beliefs. There is no evidence that he is not telling you the absolute truth of the reasons why he was with that family and of the moral cowardice that he exhibited when he couldn't leave. I'd like to just talk about how Bruce Davis again has continued his exemplary programming and has somehow maintained his grace and positive attitude since the last hearing and -- and yet another reversal, but I have to deal with a problem that arose prior to the 2015 hearing, which we honestly thought we had satisfactorily laid to rest, and it's now reared its head again. In a 2015 subsequent risk assessment, Dr. Goldstein, either because he misunderstood what Bruce Davis was telling him or for other reasons I don't even want to get into, opined that Bruce Davis lacks insight and true remorse because he "has not appeared to consider how going on a lecture tour and discussing his involvement in these two murders would affect the victims' families." That Bruce Davis lacks insight and remorse is -- is -- is absurd. In a 2009 Comprehensive Risk Assessment, Dr. Thacker (phonetic) stated, "review of records from over the years and current interview with Mr. Davis suggests that his level of insight regarding the causative factors has increased over the years." Page 13, in finding him to be a low risk of violence, she stated, "no areas of concern were identified which would require addressing in order to further reduce his risk of violence." Page 16, 2010, Dr. Thacker conducted a subsequent risk assessment of Bruce Davis. In finding the only mitigating fact (inaudible) factor since 2009 CRA existed, she stated, quote, on page eight, "he has continued to develop a deeper level of insight and understanding regarding the causative factors which contributed to his choices leading up to the life crime. His remorse for his actions and their effects on others also continues to deepen and grow." In the October 9th, 2013, Comprehensive Risk Assessment, Dr. Pritchard, P-R- I-T-C-H-A-R-D, states, "He speaks openly and accepts responsibility for his behavior. He does not minimize, deflect from or deny his participation. He has spoken about the offense at great length over the years and expressed increased understanding and acceptance of his responsibility in participation. He speaks thoughtfully and with emotion. He is attempting to further elaborate the thoughts, feelings and motives he presented in the self-assessment above. He does not try to rationalize or excuse his behavior. He expresses his remorse openly and without qualification." That's pages 10 and 11. We've gone through this. Bruce Davis is not, not, not going on a lecture tour. He has no plans to do so and never had. And I know this for a fact, okay? Because I've been contacted on multiple occasions by the media including Anderson Cooper and other major network shows asking to interview Bruce Davis now and upon release. I've passed these on as I'm required to do to let him know that these requests have been made. Each time he's instructed me to refuse. He has no interest in glorifying what happened. He has no interest in profiting from what happened. What he did say was that he'd been offered the chance to give sermons at various churches and in those sermons to discuss his life arc from being a worthless member of the Manson family to now. He plans to be open and honest about his crimes without getting into any of the details. How any doctor could misconstrue this as planning to go on a lecture tour to exploit his notoriety for financial gain is beyond comprehension. At the 2015 hearing, the board dissected this matter at length. Please look at pages 44 through 47. I'll just point out that in the decision, the panel expressed satisfaction with Mr. Davis's explanation and his insight into responsibility for and remorse for his life crimes. Quote from the decision page five and six, "we believe Mr. Davis does have sufficient insight into his previous criminality, that convergence of factors in his life from childhood on that led to his willingness to actively involve himself with his crime partners including Mr. Manson and his willingness to become directly involved in the events surrounding two murders. We believe that he accepts responsibility for these two murders in appropriate fashion. He's identified issues from his childhood, issues from his young adulthood, which contributed to his thought process and decision making at the time of the commitment offense." Dealing specifically with the issue of the so-called lecture tour on page eight, the panel goes on to say that the 2015 CRA raises issues which this panel explored to our satisfaction today, chiefly concerning Mr. Davis's insight into his previous criminality and his plans for employment subsequent to release. The panel trusts that our dialogue with Mr. Davis as contained in the transcript of today's hearing will reflect that we are satisfied with his response, page eight. We thought that this red herring had been dealt with satisfactory, but it keeps coming up, and the problem here is that the doctor never bothered to ask him during the most recent Comprehensive Risk Assessment whether he ever said it, whether he still believes it if he did say it. She didn't ask him about it. She used that as the primary reason why she considered increasing his violence risk. She goes on to assert that he still exhibits narcissistic traits, and she uses the phantom lecture tour and other false evidence as examples, and she impugns him for minimizing his responsibility for his life crimes by blaming others. In my January 11th letter, uh, to the -- asking that that Comprehensive Risk Assessment be invalidated, I go into much more detail, and since you have the letter, I'm simply going to incorporate it by reference. In response, the CRA was revised January 19th. Sadly, the revised CRA does nothing to address my objections. The doctor still claims several times that Bruce Davis plans to go on a lecture tour due to public interest in his association with the Manson family and opines that this brings into question his judgement, level of insight and remorse for his life crimes. This despite the fact that we provided proof that he never stated he planned to go on a lecture tour. He stated he might speak as an invited guest at various churches, not for profit but to help. Even this was not acceptable to this doctor, who still mistakenly refers to it as a lecture tour and claims that even this is inappropriate and disrespectful to the victims. Of course she does that without saying why or how and still deems this a clinical risk factor. No one has yet been able to explain to me how sermonizing from a pulpit in a church about fall and redemption without getting into facts is disrespectful to anyone. He's trying to make a difference and using his life as an example for how not to do things. How is that disrespectful? She does not explain why she didn't ask Bruce Davis if he ever made the statement. She purports to be an authority on insight and responsibility and opines my client lacks insight into and minimizes the responsibility for his crimes in some way, but she doesn't own up to her own failure to ask that question. This question was a pivotal issue in a -- in her report, and she doesn't ask him once about it? Her diagnosis that she continues to exhibit, narcissistic personality traits, is just so flat wrong I don't even know where to begin, but I'll -- I'll start with the DSM5. DSM5 requires for narcissistic personality disorder that an inmate -- that a person exhibit five of nine characteristics, and it's not just exhibiting them, it's a pervasive pattern of grandiosity in fantasy or behavior, need for admiration and a lack of empathy as indicated by five of the following: One, has a grandiose sense of self- importance. Example: Exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievement. Where is the evidence that he expects to be recognized as superior for anything, let alone any achievement that he's made? There's nothing. Is preoccupied -- two, is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power brilliance, beauty or ideal love. No evidence of that. Three, believes that he is special and unique and can only be understood by or should associate with other special or high-status people or institutions. No evidence of that. Four, requires excessive admiration. No evidence of that. All he said was, yeah, when I do good, it's nice to be recognized. Everyone feels that way. Five, has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations. Zero evidence of that. Six, is interpersonally exploitative, takes advantage of others to achieve his or own -- her own ends. No evidence of that. Seven, lacks empathy. Is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. Yeah, 50 years ago. Not today, and I'm gonna come back to something specifically that shows that that's not true. Eight, is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her. No evidence of that. Nine, shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. Nothing. Not one of these traits is shown in this report. It's -- it -- it's just mindboggling that I even have to waste my time d -- refuting stuff like this. Given the fact that the prior three state forensic experts and four prior panels of this board, what they've said about Mr. Davis's insight, responsibility and remorse, the best that can be said about Drs. Goldstein and Carmen's opinions are that they really prove how subjective the concept of insight can be. As noted in re Ryner, R-Y-N-E-R, in 2011, "personal insight, of course, has long been recognized as a worthy goal. However, we question whether anyone can ever fully comprehend the myriad circumstances, feelings and current and historical forces that motivate conduct, let alone past misconduct. We also question whether anyone can ever adequately articulate the complexity and consequences of past misconduct and atone for it to the satisfaction of everyone. In our view, moreover, one always remains vulnerable to a charge that he or she lacks sufficient insight into some aspect of past misconduct, even after meaningful self-reflection and expressions of remorse. We further consider the very concept of insight to be inherently vague and find that whether a person has or lacks insight is often in the eyes of the beholder. Thus, although a lack of insight may describe some failure to acknowledge and accept an undeniable fact about one's conduct, it can also be shorthand for subjective perceptions based on intuition or undefined criteria that are impossible to refute. The court a year later in re Morganti said, "we question whether anyone can ever adequately the complexity and consequences of past misconduct and atone for it to the satisfaction of everyone." This describes what these two doctors' takes on my client's insight are perfectly. Even Dr. Goldstein didn't have the chutzpah to suggest that my client is minimizing. He recognized, as Dr. Carmen, sadly, didn't, that the evidence of my client's taking full responsibility is too overwhelming to even try to challenge it, because the truth is, Bruce Davis not only takes responsibility for the two murders that he was a part of, he takes responsibility for every criminal act of the Manson family. Take a look at the 2014 hearing transcripts of page 33 and 34. Now what's interesting is the District Attorney seems to want to have it both ways. On the one hand, my client is minimizing his crimes. On the other hand, simply because my client takes responsibility for all of the Manson family crimes, he should be found to be one of those rare exceptions to the Lawrence rule that the crime cannot be used against an inmate this many years in -- into the future. You can't have it both ways. He takes responsibility for everything the family did, even though he's not legally responsible for anything other than what he did. And we have to remember that that is why we are here today. What did Bruce Davis do? What was his role in his crimes? Now, Dr. Carmen, despite all of concerns, still found my client to be low risk of violence. Perhaps this is because she did bother to read the 2013 Comprehensive Risk Assessment in which Dr. Pritchard explained why Bruce Davis poses a low risk of violence, stated at page 13, "Mr. Bruce Davis is a 71- year-old man who participated in two violent murders in early adulthood when he was a member of an antisocial hedonistic and violent cult. He has no other significant criminal history outside of this association. While incarcerated, he has taken the opportunity to improve his knowledge, attitudes, behaviors and beliefs. He has used these areas of improvement to develop a meaningful and self-correcting insight and self-awareness. At this time, there seems little more he can do to further reduce his risk beyond just continuing to age." This statement also explains best why there's no nexus between Bruce Davis's nearly five decades' old conduct and his current dangerousness today. Did he give perfect answers at this hearing today? No. I offer anyone in this room the opportunity to be questioned under these circumstances 34 times about crimes that happened nearly 50 years ago and let's see -- let's see the quality of everyone's answers. No way they'd be the same. He was honest. You didn't have to pry information out of him, he's trying to answer as best as he could. Despite the bitter pill of having his freedom snatched away from him four times by two governors playing politics, Mr. Davis has continued programming well. He has worked hard to improve his insight, responsibility and remorse for the crime. He has obtained transitional home to ease the transition back to society. He has put together an excellent Relapse Prevention Plan. He has continued to do excellent work in the PIA Specialty Print Plant. He does volunteer work in the Protestant Chapel and AV -- and facilitates programs including, um -- uh, Yokefellows. Excuse me. He's remained disciplinary free. He's now 75, and he served nearly 44 years in prison plus over a year in county jail, so this hearing is held as a special elder parole suitability standards. Now, I just need to put this last argument on the record because -- to preserve it. He's now served 45+ years of two seven-to-life sentences, a term that exceeds well beyond the matrix for this crime for the actual killers. As held by the California Supreme Court in re Dannenberg, no prisoner can be held for a period grossly disproportionate to his individual culpability for the commitment offense. Such excessive confinement violates the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the California Constitution. Thus, we acknowledge that Section 3041(a) cannot authorize such an inmate's retention even for reasons of public safety beyond this constitutional maximum period of confinement. Based on the boards codified matrix, Bruce Davis's base term exclusive of good time credits is at most 21 years and inclusive of good time credits resulted in an adjusted base term that lapsed in 1973. Plus the fact that Steve Grogan, one of the actual killers, was paroled over 30 years ago, Bruce Davis remains incarcerated, now having served over 45 years, a period that is grossly disproportionate to his individual culpability for his life crimes. I've represented well over 2000 life term inmates in the last 12 years. Bruce Davis is the single most rehabilitated I've represented. There's not even any close second. I -- I -- I don't -- it -- it is so frustrating to have to be here again and -- and plead for the board to again do the right thing. That's what I'm doin'. Please do the right thing. He's suitable for parole. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Mr. Davis, closing statement?

INMATE DAVIS: Thank you. What's the difference in 1970 and 19 -- and 2017 in my life? Well, first off, I'm sober and in my right mind, having experienced an awakening that gave -- that showed me my real value to my creator, which gave me a -- an understanding of the value and a feeling of the under -- of the value for every other human being. In 1970, I had virtually no boundaries in my life, as my crimes illustrate, but now knowing my real value, I have many, and I believe correct, boundaries, and now instead of taking lives or havin' any response -- and having responsibility toward it like I did, now I want to help people improve their lives. I want to help the people I'm around to practice their skills and get better. To, uh, to kind of mature their talents and be more productive to themselves and to the people around them. The people I, uh, most, uh, deal with, it's on a spiritual level, so I talk to 'em in terms of the real super-basic stuff and show them, by -- by the things in my life, the tragic mistakes I made, the terrible things that I did to others -- that if their behavior continues, many of 'em, in the same path, they're gonna end up in something like I got into, so I'm tryin' to warn them and let my life be a warning and show them a remedy for the direction they're going. And sometimes it's effective, and when it is, I really feel good. And when it isn't, I don't particularly take the blame or responsibility for -- cause I know everybody's gotta make their own choices, but my job, I believe, is to communicate an idea, a feeling, something that the person -- to remind him of his -- that he has a choice and that this is real serious. So -- so my life now is dedicated to, um, makin' -- makin' it right. I know that my -- my behavior has harmed uncountable people. I can't -- they -- I can't -- no way for me to know, uh, the families, the Hinman family and the Shea family, that's just the beginning of the harm I caused, I realize that. I know that it was a -- I know that I don't really know all the harm it caused and all the -- the fear and the thing -- I -- I realize that. So I want to point people in a different direction. I've been pointed in that direction very effectively, and I wanna help others. I believe, uh, I believe I will. I believe I'll be successful at it. One of the real reasons why I'll be successful at it? Because I know how to ask for help, and I know how to learn, and this has been instructed today, and I appreciate it. And all my hearings have been instructive, and appreciate the time and -- and your expertise at getting to the point, and that helps. So, I thank you for your attention and your decision very much. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. All right, does anybody -- would like to speak?

MS. MARTLEY: Yes. I appreciate the opportunity to speak on behalf of my member of my family who cannot speak for himself, Gary Hinman. Gary --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Can you put your name on the record?

MS. MARTLEY: I'm sor --

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Can you put your name on the record?

MS. MARTLEY: Oh, my name is Kay Hinman Martley, M-A-R-T-L-E-Y.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you.

MS. MARTLEY: Gary Hinman was a musician who left his home state of Colorado to live and work in the Los Angeles area. Gary was kind and outgoing. He was a good-hearted person who often gave others in need a place to stay for a few days or a few dollars to get by. Gary's charity is what led him to befriend the wrong people. The kind of people who tortured Gary under horrific circumstances. Bruce Davis was there, participated in Gary's murder. Mr. Davis has changed his story several times over the last 47 years concerning his participation in the murder, but he was a member and a follower of the Manson family. Excuse me, I -- this is hard. It is well known that the Manson family is responsible for the murders of Sharon Tate, her friends, the Labiancas, Shorty Shea and others who had the misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm here today to speak on behalf of our family and to remind this panel of the devastating impact Gary's death had and continues to have on my family. Gary was only 35 years old. Gary's mother died only a year after Gary's murder at the age of 61. We watched the stress and the grief eat away until it killed her with a massive stroke. Gary's sister Carol can barely bring herself to talk about what happened to her brother. The family received death threats during the proceedings and is afraid to speak out now for fear of retribution from the Manson followers, which are still active in society. Gary's sister Barbara had mental problems, and the murly -- the murder only exasperated her mental state to this day. I have traveled 1500 miles to be here today. I grew up with Gary. I am here to tell you that Gary's murder has had a lasting impact on our family. The very word Manson brings (inaudible). Every time Mr. Davis comes up for parole, the surviving members of Gary's family must relive the horror of his death. Gary was held captive at his home, stabbed multiple times, cut off his ear over a period of three days. When they found him, the carpet was soaked with Gary's blood as well as spread on the walls. This wasn't a crime of passion or impulse, this was slow and calculated and cold blooded. Bruce Davis was part of this crime, which was nothing short of heinous. I understand that Mr. Davis is a model prisoner and volunteers in a variety of activities, which help his fellow prisoners. Mr. Davis knows the system. It's to his advantage not to cause trouble and to be cooperative. It's good that he contributes to the prison society. Remaining in prison should be his penance for his crimes. Let him continue to contribute by remaining in prison for public safety as well as the life sentence, death sentence he was given. In the last hearing, Mr. Davis was asked what remorseful meant, and he answered that remorse was a sadness that leads to amends. The dictionary says, remorse is a deep regret or a guilt for a wrong committed. Nothing about sadness. I wonder, as educated as Mr. Davis is, that he does not know what remorse is. I also believe Mr. Davis has a cult mentality. Joining Scientology, joining the Manson family, and he has become deeply committed to religion. It is if he has to be filling a need to have something or someone to follow. Mr. Davis has said he had needs for acceptance. Will he join a zealot group if given the freedom? I and 30+ of my cousins ask you not to give Bruce Davis a parole and he remain a life prisoner because of the severity of his crimes. It is my wish that the board base their decision with fresh eyes and fresh ears on the heinous crimes the original death penalty received and public safety. Bruce Davis should not get parole. Thank you.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you.

MS. TATE: (inaudible) the copies.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. That's the statement. All right, uh, Ms. Tate?

MS. TATE: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Debra Tate, and I am a family spokesperson for the Hinman family as well as other families involved in the Manson family slaughters. I have been to every single Manson family hearing since 1998, and I was present at all four subsequent hearings for Mr. Davis and was in the room, and, uh, I would like to speak to a few of these facts that came out as well as the -- the body language, which ex -- which is of extreme concern to me as a victim's next-of-kin. This man was present for the planning of this whole Helter Skelter involvement. He was aware and in one of his subsequent hearings said he was tired, so he declined to go with Charlie. His other crime partner stated that he was an equal to Charlie and was about the only one that could choose to do and what not to do. So I suppose he was too tired from his activities at Gary Hinman's house to go to Sharon's house, but still didn't feel the need to speak forward, even though he was so revolted by the -- the brutality of the scene that had commenced at the Hinman house, which now he testifies he didn't really know about. In the past, he gave fairly graphic decisions -- or descriptions of those things. Um, Mr. Davis's parole plans, not just the -- the technician, or the clinician as you called them, the psychologists that interviewed him that -- that flagged this Christian-speaking tour, they weren't the only person that addressed this. Those same words were used by the Commissioner, himself, included in Mr. Davis's parole plans, a speaking tour, so that's a little bit different, once again conveniently, to speaking in front of church groups. Uh, we have a petition with over, close to 10,000 people, accumulated in just, uh, 10, 12 days' time petitioning the board not to let Mr. Davis out. I would like to inform you that a lot of those are church growing pe -- going people. Mr. Davis referred to himself being likely accepted by Christian people. Well, that's absolutely not true. Who is he going to help and influence on the outside if people have not come on the inside and had a criminality -- uh, criminality, how would his speaking to those folks benefit them? It's quite fact -- it's a fact, because I speak with these people on the outside. The people he - - that represent or come and speak on the inside of the jails have a particular agenda that does not reflect the general public's, the church, every church member in the congregation. Some of the biggest congregations in the land are not accepting of this fact at all, and I can guarantee that Mr. Davis will receive, and I personally am worried about this, great opposition in his life, because as I saw today, he came out of his chair when you cross examined him on a subject that was not pleasing or self-serving to him. He displays very, very vehemently a deep emotion when it applies to him, which brings us right back to his grandioso personality and his narcissistic tendencies. Both of these are a recipe for disaster. He did -- has got great accomplishments. His, uh, doctorate in Psychology of Theology personally, I and the rest of the Manson family victims have a problem with the fact that these people are able to get educated in the very subjects that allowed them to influence young minds into these -- this crime family in the first place. So in other words, he has honed his skills. In a previous hearing with a very pert smirk on his face, he informed the bro -- the board as part of his parole plans that he was entitled to half of his ex- wife's pension. Once again, very self-serving. He did not mention that today because perhaps it doesn't sound so good to the rest of us that you're going to take half of a hard-working woman's, uh, pension when that's something that didn't even cross her mind. This is a woman that left him when it became a reality that this person would no longer be in the confines of a controlled environment. I would like you and Mr. Davis and his attorney to know that it will absolutely hurt the Shea family, the Hinman family, the Tate family, the Sebring family, the Folger family and the Frykowski family if this man is allowed to go on speaking tours of any kind and reflect on his notoriety or even his experiences, which he says are humbling, but I've seen no display of humbled personality whatsoever. All of these people will be hurt and horribly, horribly offended. It's not just the core people, it's children, grandchildren, cousins, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles. This is a tremendous amount of people, plus all of their friends that would be greatly, deeply disturbed further by the board allowing him to include this in his parole plans. The good Christian people who he didn't have to work for the acceptance, they don't want him out. Davis, himself, in parole hearings ref -- refused to speak towards -- I'm sorry, I don't usually go by notes -- his past convictions. He, through testimony in all of the other people's parole hearings and -- and court testimony is ta -- took accountability or braggery in a much greater degree than what he has taken here today. It seems like each time I come, we hear him moving further -- moving himself further and further away from personal involvement. Just being present, knowing that these things were being planned and after the first murder, which was Gary Hinman, any normal mind would have headed for the hills. The women's love and acceptance that he's spoken about, these were people that Charlie literally whored out. They were at Spahn Ranch to give sexual favors to an old, crippled man so that they could have a roof over their head. How in the world would the love and acceptance of those people matter? How would the love and acceptance of murderous, scandalous, dumpster-diving, nonworking individuals matter? I was a child in the -- in the hippy movement. Any hippy that was really a hippy is appalled by the association that these people have tagged themselves as that ki -- and represent themselves in the hippy movement. It really is quite slanderous. I personally have, as well as you, but I'm very sure that Mr. Davis is lying straight to your face. Straight to my face. Several Commissioners, several governors, so on and so forth. How does he pay for his lawyers? How do these people pay for their private lawyers? Tha -- that's an interesting question that nobody's ever asked, and I'm sure I'm not entitled to know the answer, but -- and I don't deserve, necessarily, the answer, but this will go into the transcript, and the public needs to know. How do these people pay for their attorneys? Well if nothing else, the attorney gets other jobs, and the man that gives a Manson family member a parole date, his career is then set in gold, and that's just a fact, so Mr. Beckman has a dog in this race. I think that in this very hearing, I have witnessed entitlement. When he egregiously came out of his chair when you said something, Commissioner, that -- that he didn't like. That was an act of aggression in my part. That showed me, personally, that he has not managed to maintain or temper, uh, his emotions and react in a normal, responsible way. Um, the fact that he feels entitlement to half of his ex-wife's pension and retirement, that's an example of entitlement. Stating that the Christian community appreciates his story, very presumptuous and absolutely not true. That's an example of grandioso. Everyone is wrong but Mr. Davis. Narcistic (phonetic). Admitted after testimony by Barbara Hoyt and crime partners has im -- has and was involved in the planning and the implement and commitment of all of the crimes. Just because it wasn't included by Mr. Boog -- Bugliosi in the DA's office at the time does not make him any less aware or any less guilty. Therefore, I personally have a dog in this race. I don't think that anybody that is capable of imagining these kind of acts over and over and over again is of sound mind. I study psychology. I've made it my business. I have spoken to the biggest and the best in this business, who have given each one of these people that same test, and they have been said to fail miserably, that they live somewhere between psychopath and sociopath, and therefore they will never be in a free society a -- a safe individual, that the likelihood of some kind of negative interactive with the public is -- is very likely, and I'm very aware of that, and I want you to know that. I feel that Mr. Davis as well as his crime partners, who have many more names or counts of first degree murder on their rap sheet, he is just as guilty, was just as active and that the parole board, with all due respect, on your website, your mission statements says that your job is to take into consideration to the utmost public safety. And for the reasons that I just stated, the victims' families all feel that Mr. Davis is not a safe person to release back into society, and the 10,000 people that submitted their names and letters also concur with that. So I ask you please, heavily, let all of these facts weigh on your mind and come to the right conclusion, and that right conclusion is these were people that were condemned to die in multiple trials and have been given the benefit of life where they have done good deeds behind bars, but these are -- it's a controlled environment, and I wish them well in this controlled environment, but please don't let them out into society because it would be an egregious, heinous circumstan -- outcome. It would be a horrible outcome I'm quite sure. So please, do not grant this man parole, and I thank you for your time.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. Okay, time is 1:50. We'll go off the record. We'll go into deliberations.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: We're off the record.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: We're back on the record.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. We're back on the record. The time is 2:36 p.m. All parties that were present prior to the recess are present now. This is the decision on Davis, D-A-V-I-S , CDC number B41079. The panel reviewed all information received from the public and all relevant information that was before us today in concluding that the prisoner is suitable for parole and would not pose an unreasonable risk of danger to society or a threat to public safety if released from prison. The finding of suitability is based on weighing the considerations provided in California Code of Regulations Title 15. We also gave, um, special consideration to your age, the amount of time in prison and any medical conditions that you have when coming up with this decision today. Um, the bottom line is, uh, I don't think the panel was very impressed with your presentation today. Um, but the bottom line is, and I will get into it, is that despite the deficiencies, uh, that we saw today, um, we didn't think that they rose to a level that there was a nexus of current dangerousness, and so that's just the ultimate conclusion in this case, but, um, we can't overlook, you know, some of the issues that came up in your testimony today, and so we're gonna go through them. Obviously, you -- you know, in and of itself, the crime and crimes were completely hideous, brutal, senseless, um, you know, I mean there was absolutely no justification for them, um, and, you know, of course, um, everybody, um, you know, has a hard time understanding why these crimes even took place given even, you know, the discussions about it at length. You know, it made a huge social impact, not only on the family members, uh, family -- uh, extended family members directly, indirectly, you know. The -- the notoriety, how it affected, um -- social impact is enormous in this case. Um, so, you know, obviously w -- w -- we listened to that, and again, it shocks the conscience. Um, there -- there's no doubt about it. Um, the issues that we have, you know, are actually some of the issues that the governor brought up. I -- I -- I don't know if I agree with everything that the governor placed in his, uh, reversal letter, but, you know, um, and I'm gonna go through them. It's, um, some minimization and insight issues, some empathy, remorse issues and your affect today was very disturbing. Um, so I'm gonna go through those. Um, as far as the -- your minimization and insight, I mean, you know, I -- I think that the panel saw some of the same things that the governor saw. When you're discussing the case, you tend to place yourself in the best light. You -- you take a step back, you're not fully involved in this, you know. But, you know, there are some clues to your testimony when you say that -- that Manson treated you equally, right? He treated you equally. He didn't treat everybody else equally, um, shows the stature that you had in this family, and that was is that you were treated more like an equal with Manson because you had more power than the rest of them. That's wh -- you know, so I think that even though you say that you were kinda like, you know, I didn't really know this and that, I didn't wanna do to do this and that, um, your, uh -- the -- some of the other testimony that you bring out today really suggests otherwise. So we had some issues with the fact that, you know, when you step back and -- and try to place yourself, and you say you take responsibility for these crimes, but at the same time, you know, you like to parse words, and you like to say I slashed instead of stabbed, and I -- you know, I had the gun this way, and I just brought it there because I didn't want anybody else to use it, and things like that at this point, after being here for so many years, shows the mindset that you're in right now that there's still justifications and things like that for these crimes in your mind. Now, given that and then given all of these more recent, you know, positives, we didn't think there was any nexus to current dangerousness, but we did see some of the same issues that the governor had, okay? It's just that given everything else, which I'm gonna go through, cause I'm gonna go through the positives, too, we didn't see the nexus, okay? Um, the affect today that you had it -- you know, it is, it's something that other people don't see, but you -- you know -- and I don't know what it is, but when -- when you're talking about certain things, uh, in the past, especially with the crimes and other things, it does look like you're -- like you're smirking smugly and, uh -- or have a little smile on your face, and it is disturbing. It's like you're reminiscing about it, I don't know what it is, and if you aren't, other people are gonna think that, and that's why it's disturbing, and it came up, uh, quite a bit, and so that affect is just something that, you know, we discussed. Obviously, you know, the affect, huh, there's no nexus to current dangerousness, but you can see how that could be taken by others as being, um, not remorseful, um, not taking responsibility for things. You know, not feeling sorry for what you did when you have that time of affect going on, and you can't see it because, you know, you can't see yourself in the mirror when you're doin' it, but I'm just noting that, that that -- that was something that we noticed. Um, as far as, you know, the remorse and empathy, you know, I think that you have an, um -- an intellectual understanding of -- of what the family members go through. I mean, but the enormity of it, the magnitude of it, you -- you -- you know, you say the right words, but do you really feel it? That didn't really come out today. I mean, maybe it just wasn't a good day for you, I don't know, but I didn't sense that. I sensed that you were just kinda sayin' what you needed to say when it came to, um, the empathy and remorse, and you weren't really feeling, I mean, how horrific -- how horrific family members, what they go through day -- today and every day for the rest of their lives knowing how their family members were murdered in such a brutal and senseless way. So those were some of the issues that we had today with your testimony. Um, but, you know, like I said, we had those issues, and so, you know, I do understand some of the reasoning in the governor's letter, but then when we take a look at some of the more positive things, some of the suitability factors, really, you know, they're outweighed. And that's the fact that your institutional behavior is, you know, is - - is quite good. Um, and when we look at it, you have no violence in prison. You had no juvenile criminal violence. You had no viol -- really, the o -- the violence that you have was with the Manson family. Um, and we had to take that into consideration. Um, and it really does show an enhanced ability to function, because we know that a lot of people can get in trouble in prison because we see their central files, and so, um, sometimes it is difficult to stay out of trouble in prison. And -- and you have been able to do that. Um, so I do think that says something about, um, how -- how you are gonna be able to conduct yourself. Um, you know, you have done an enormous amount of self-help. Um, and -- and that is where I saw a lot of sincerity. I -- I did see it when -- when you talked about your -- your classes and some of 'em and what you were getting out of 'em, I did see sincerity in -- in how you were discussing and, um, how it's, you know, how it's helped you as far as you becoming more confident, less insecure, feeling better about yourself, being able to help others. And so I -- I think that that really, um - - I think that shows that you've -- you've done some things to mature in prison. Um, and that's shown in a lot of objective ways, and -- and that's what I mean, uh, objectively through your institutional behavior and through your programming, through all of the upgrades that you've done in a variety of areas, not just in self-help and programming but in yourself in education and in skills, which is what we wanna see, because we wanna see people that came in, which in your case you came in as a drug addict with not a lot of skills, some education, and you've improved yourself. Um, and I do think that says something about your rehabilitation efforts because a lot of people don't do that. Um, and so we looked at the risk assessment. It was a low risk. The clinician had some of the same things -- some of the same issues that we had with you as far as the minimization, this -- you know, this -- this attitude that we see that you can be construed as having narcissistic tones to it and that affect that, uh -- that appears the same way that that narcissistic type of, uh, tones. The clinician saw the same things, um, that we saw as well, or some of them, and still believes that -- that you're a low risk, and I think the panel's in agreement with that. I mean, your age certainly reduces your risk of recidivism. Um, and everything that you've done for an extended period of time in prison, obj -- objective criteria, objective evidence, shows that, um -- that -- that we could not, despite the issues that we had with you today, we could not link them to, um, any current dangerousness. And then, on top of that, the special consideration for the elderly parole. Um, so for these reasons, we found you suitable for parole today. Is there anything that you would like to add?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: I -- I'll add just a couple things, Mr. Davis. Uh, first I'll note for the record I agree completely with what the Commissioner's already articulated. She does articulate our, uh, joint decision, and I'm in full agreement with it. Um, there were, obviously, issues of concern for us, sir, um, and the Commissioner has spoken to the minimization, the deficiencies in insight, and al -- also I add the findings concerning the narcissism that, uh, Dr. Carmen found, and, um, noting her diagnosis of other specified personality disorder with narcissistic and antisocial features, we saw that. We saw evidence of the grandiosity, need for admiration and lack of empathy that the, uh, clinician saw in the, um, interview with you and in the paperwork that she reviewed. And then I'll note for the record that, you know, your attorney, uh, points out that you've had the low assessment from the last three CRAs including those, uh, authored by Dr. Thacker and Dr. Pritchard in addition to Dr. Carmen while also Dr. Thacker and Dr. Pritchard made the diagnosis of personality disorder, not otherwise specified, with narcissistic and antisocial features but even in the context of that still found you to be a low risk for violence. So you've got these issues. You have a personality disorder, and you're gonna have to account for that in how you continue to strive for humility. Um, you know, uh, it's something that is noted and was of concern. But, again, we look at a person in the context of everything -- the -- the big picture here. And your age obviously is weighed, at 74, I guess you'll be 75 in October, um, and your conduct in prison. I mean, no violence, two 115s, last one in 1980. You've upgrade yourself tremendously in the area of education. You've had good works, uh, performance, uh, excellent, exceptional, I shouldn't say just good, and then consistent programming even in the face of reversals, you know, a number of reversals, which tries people. And I have seen a lot of older folks kinda get to a point where they kinda throw in the towel on self- help, and, you know, to your credit, you have continued to move forward and talked about LTOP like this is a grand new adventure for you in learning and -- and growing and, you know, in your 70s, so that's to your credit. You didn't just say, the heck with this, you know, this isn't happening, so. You -- you kept moving forward and learning and growing and doing that daily inventory and -- and, uh, were able to articulate a -- a fairly lengthy list of current defects. That shows you're doing those assessments and -- and looking at that in a -- a self-critical way, self, you know, reflecting on who you are and -- and trying to better yourself, so that said a lot. And then, obviously, another important aspect certainly, uh, in looking prospectively is are you doing anything to help other people? You're a life awareness facilitator, you're doing the Yokefellow, um, moderator/facilitator/mentor, however you wanna call it. And then the volunteer instructor with School of the Bible where you're impacting a lot of folks, so you have a -- a -- a -- a great group of folks in here that can be impacted by you, and you're taking time to try to impact other people in a positive way. So those are all very positive things that you should be commended for. And so, um, there were certainly areas of concern, and had you been a younger person with more 115s or, you know, there's a lot of variables that we have to consider, but within the context of everything we're looking at, um, we did not find you to be an unreasonable risk to public safety. So with that, I'll defer back to Commissioner.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Thank you. We'll also note, um, no substance pr -- abuse problems in prison, which was an issue for you before you came to prison, so I think, uh, the fact that there wh -- were no substance abuse in prison shows, um, that that can be sustained on the outside as well, and no gang, which, you weren't in a gang before, but, you know, you were in a cult. Um, and so, and you had those issues with, um, you know, the needing -- need for acceptance and being in that type of situation, and we don't see that in prison. And we do see the same types of patterns when we have people with those type of personalities and issues before they come into prison. They start to, um, gather, and so we see some of the same issues. We didn't see that with you. So, um, so again, that again shows a breaking of the pattern. Um, so for those reasons, we found that you, um, are suitable for parole. Um, is there anything that you wanna add?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: No, thank you, though.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: Okay. We put the, um, calculations on -- uh, the calculations were already calculated before -- we just, uh -- from one of your prior hearings, so it's listed. It looks like it's time served. Okay? It -- um, as far as special conditions of parole, you're not to have any communications with any of the family, um, the victims' family members, okay? None. Through third parties or anything like that. Um, any other special conditions of parole?

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: Um, no contact with other crime partners I would assume.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FRITZ: No contact with any of the crime partners. Um, all right, so you -- well, you know how this works, so, you go to the legal office first, then you go to the governor's office. The governor can make his own -- own decision on this case. Um, it takes about four to five months, um, and the governor can make, you know, has the right to make his own decision on this case. All right? All right. Thank you. Time is 2:52. We'll go off the record.

DEPUTY COMMISSIONER DENVIR: We're off the record.