Monday, December 8, 1969
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MR. STOVITZ: Rachel Morse.
THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Rachel Morse.
called as a witness before the Grand Jury, was sworn and testified as follows:
THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.
THE WITNESS: Rachel Morse.
THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in the matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR. STOVITZ
Q: Is it Miss or Mrs.?
Q: Do you have an attorney, Mrs. Morse?
Q: What is his name?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did he come to visit you in the Los Angeles County Jail?
Q: Could you describe him for us so that we might try to guess who he is?
A: He is fat.
Q: Big and fat?
Q: Is he also the same attorney that talked to Gipsy?
Q: What is Gipsy's real name?
A: I don't know, really. I just know her as Gipsy.
Q: Was she booked over there as Manon Minette, M-a-n-o-n M-i-n-e-t-t-e, something like that?
Q: And you understand that this Grand Jury is investigating the Sharon Tate and LaBianca murders; do you understand that?
Q: We are not going to ask you any questions concerning your arrest either up in Inyo County or on August the 16th, 1969; do you understand that?
Q: Now, Rachel, are you willing to answer these questions truthfully about what you know about the Sharon Tate and LaBianca murders?
Q: Now, that is supposed to have happened on August the 8th or August the 9th and August the 10th, 1969; do you understand that?
Q: Where were you living at that time?
A: At Spahn's Ranch.
Q: And were you living there continuously up until August the 16th, 1969, which was the date that you were arrested at the Spahn Ranch?
Q: Did you go out to any place in Bel Air or in Los Feliz with this fellow here in this photograph and see anybody killed?
Q: So, then, anything that you may have heard about the Tate murders and LaBianca murders came over the radio or from somebody else; is that correct?
Q: Do you know what this man's name is in this picture?
Q: And was he arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?
Q: Now, I show you Exhibit 15.
Do you know the boy that is shown in that picture?
Q: What is his name?
Q: Was he arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: I show you on the bottom of this picture there is a name Grant Mollan, M-o-l-l-a-n, but it doesn't show the date that picture was taken.
All right, we will go to the next picture.
This girl here, do you know what this girl’s name is on Grand Jury Exhibit No. 16?
Q: Is that Leslie Sankston?
A: That is how I know her.
Q: And was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?
Q: Do you remember what name she used then?
Q: Was she also brought from Inyo County with you when you were all brought down to testify before the Grand Jury?
Q: And do you know whether or not Leslie Sankston was living at the ranch between August the 8th and August the 16th, 1969?
Q: What name was she using out there at the ranch?
Q: Do you know whether or not she had a particular place that she would stay or live, or anything like that?
Q: Would she sleep one night at this place and one night at that place out at the ranch?
Q: Do you remember what place the girls slept every night at the ranch?
Q: Well, the fellows would -- how many fellows were there at the ranch there back in August of 1969, approximately?
A: About ten or fifteen.
Q: Of these ten or fifteen, Charlie Manson was one of them?
Q: And Tex was one of them?
Q: And Clem was one of them?
Q: Was Danny DeCarlo one of them?
Q: Do you remember any of the other boys that were out there?
A: The ranch hands.
Q: The ranch hands, and do you remember any other boys that were out there?
A: A bunch of them came in and out.
Q: Do you remember an incident that happened when Danny DeCarlo's friends came up to get him one night?
Q: Were you there at that time?
Q: By “Uh-huh," if you could just say yes.
Q: Do you remember when that was with relation to the day that the Sheriffs came out there on August the 16th and arrested everybody?
Q: When was it?
A: It was -- they came at night and the Sheriffs came right after they had all left in the morning.
Q: Now, if we go by the date that the Sheriffs came on August the 16th, the morning of August the 16th, these motorcycle boys came on August the 15th, which would be the night before; is that right?
A: Yeah, all night.
Q: All right, now, were you staying with one of the fellows there, say, five or six days before that or were you just staying with the girls there?
In other words, the place that you were sleeping at was this with one of the fellows or were you just staying with one of the girls, or what were you doing up at the ranch?
Q: Where would the place be that you would be sleeping the night before the 15th, let's say?
A: In the little shack. There is a shack.
Q: Is this a little shack behind the house?
A: It’s kind of on the side of it.
Q: And is this the place that Charlie Manson lived?
Q: Where was Charlie Manson staying?
A: All over.
Q: I'm speaking about the week before the ranch got raided.
A: I don't remember where he slept.
Q: When is your birthday?
A: January 6, 1951.
Q: So if I would ask you where you were on August the 8th, 1969, could you tell me right now where you were?
Q: Could you tell me where you were living on August the 8th, 1969?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Would you say it is a pretty good bet that you didn't sleep with Charlie Manson that night?
A: I couldn't say that, either.
Q: What about August the 9th, 1969, could you tell us whether you stayed with Charlie Manson that night?
A: I couldn't tell you. I could tell you if I remembered but I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember one way or the other?
Q: What about August the 10th, 1969?
A: See, I didn't pay attention to the dates all the time at the ranch.
Q: Now, you did hear about the Sharon Tate murders some way; did you?
A: Over the radio.
Q: Do you remember whether it was the same day that it happened that you heard about it on the radio, was it a day or two after it happened, or was it a week after it happened?
Can you tell us when it was that you heard it on the radio?
A: No, I was listening to TV and it came on.
Q: Where was the TV set?
A: In the trailer.
Q: Who else was looking at the TV set with you at that time?
A: I was just alone because I was taking care of the baby.
Q: Would you take care of all the babies, like Danny DeCarlo's and Susan Atkins' baby, and all of the babies?
Q: Would you answer yes.
Q: Now, when you heard about the Sharon Tate case, when you heard it on the television, did it seem like it had just happened or did it seem like it happened --
A: It seemed like it just happened because everybody was in a frenzy, excited on the TV.
Q: Now, did you then hear about two other people getting killed a day or two later?
Q: By “Uh-huh,” do you mean yes?
Q: And did you ever see any of the people at the ranch like, let's say, Susan Atkins and Charlie Watson, Tex, leave the ranch late at night?
A: A couple of times.
Q: Do you remember whether it was about the time you heard about the Sharon Tate murders on television that you saw them leave the ranch?
Q: Would they leave the ranch, say, a couple of times or just every once in a while?
A: Oh, almost every night people went out.
Q: Do you remember what kind of a car they would use when they went out?
A: Whatever car was available.
Q: Do you remember how they were dressed when they went out?
Q: Do you ever remember any of them going out dressed in black?
Q: Do you remember when that was with relation to you hearing about the Sharon Tate murders? Was it a day before, was it a week before, was it a month before?
Q: When you saw these people dressed in black.
A: We usually wore black.
Q: You usually wore black?
Q: Would you usually wear boots or go barefooted or what?
A: I always went barefooted. Whatever people could find in the way of shoes they wore.
Q: Do you remember an incident when seven people went out late at night, say, about 8:00, 9:00 o'clock at night and they all went out in a '59 Ford automobile?
Do you remember such a thing happening?
A: Yeah, various times.
Q: And do you remember what happened?
Were you up when they came back?
Q: Did they ever discuss with you what they would do when they went out at night?
Q: Did you ever hear anything said around the ranch about anybody at the ranch being involved with the Tate or LaBianca murders?
Q: Did you ever hear anything at the ranch about "five pigs getting killed last night"?
A: I heard something. I heard a lot about pigs.
Q: What did you hear about them?
A: Just pigs.
Q: How would the people at the ranch use the term pigs?
Would they use it according to pigs were police officers, or pigs were people, or pigs were pigs, that means hogs?
A: Mostly police officers.
Q: Mostly police officers.
And did you ever see any guns carried by anybody at the ranch there?
Q: What kind of guns would you say?
A: Danny had a .45.
Q: And "Danny" is Danny DeCarlo; is that right?
Q: A .45, is that a rifle or an automatic?
A: Automatic pistol.
Q: Any other kind of guns that you would see out there?
A: Yes, I saw a lot of guns.
Q: Can you think of any ones by any particular descriptions?
A: There is a big -- the kind that the police have.
A: Yeah, it was called a riot gun.
Q: I show you a picture, Exhibit 38, here.
Did you ever see a gun that looked like this out at the ranch?
Q: By “Uh-huh,” you mean yes?
Q: And who did you see have a gun like that?
A: I think Shorty did and another ranch hand.
Q: By "Shorty," is Shorty's last name Shea,(sic)?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you remember how long it was that you saw Shorty before you were arrested August 16th? Was this a month before August the 16th, a week before?
How long was it that you had seen Shorty?
In other words, how many weeks before August the 16th was it that you saw Shorty?
A: Is August the 16th the day we got arrested?
A: Oh, I saw him after the arrest. I think I saw him after the arrest.
Q: How many weeks after the arrest did you last see him?
A: I left for the desert about a week after the arrest.
Q: Did you ever see Shorty after that?
Q: Do you know where Shorty is now?
Q: Where is he?
A: He is dead.
Q: How do you know he is dead?
A: Because the detective told me.
Q: But you don't know that from your own knowledge; is that right?
Q: And you didn't see anybody kill him?
Q: You never went to his funeral?
Q: Is there anything else that you can remember happening out at the ranch other than getting arrested on August 16th, or the motorcyclists coming out there trying to get Danny back to them on August the 15th?
Can you remember anything else happening at the ranch out there that you want to tell us about?
Q: How did Charlie Manson treat you girls?
A: Just girls.
Q: Did he tell you what to do, generally, or did you do whatever you wanted to?
A: Everybody did what they wanted to do.
Q: Suppose you wanted to get up and leave the ranch, could you have done that?
Q: Nobody kept you there against your will?
Q: By --
Q: And what about Charlie Manson, did he have one particular girl that he liked more than the others?
Q: Did he ever stay with two or three girls that he liked more than all the others?
Q: Did he like you as much as he liked the others?
Q: Would you say he liked everybody equally as far as the girls were concerned?
Q: All right, what about Tex Watson there, did he have a girl that he liked more than the others?
Q: What about Clem, did he like any girl particularly more than any others?
Q: This fellow here, No. 4, Exhibit 4, is the one I referred to as Tex Watson.
Do you know where he was on August the 8th or August the 9th, 1969?
Q: Do you know where Charlie Manson was on August the 8th, or August the 9th, or August the 10th?
A: They were at the ranch.
Q: You don't remember now that you are thinking back of actually seeing them those dates; do you?
Q: Was there a time that any of them would go away from the ranch and then come back after a while?
Q: And, in other words, people would come and go as they wanted to?
Q: Did you ever work in an office where there was a time clock that you had to punch in and punch out?
Q: You didn't have a time clock over there where everybody punched in and punched out?
Q: Did you ever see any of the girls carry knives?
A: In the desert.
Q: What kind of knives were they?
A: They were about this long.
Q: You are indicating about twelve inches; is that right?
A: Not the blade, the handle and the blade.
Q: The knife was about twelve inches and the blade would be about half that long?
Q: There is a ruler right in front of you.
Do you want to measure again? You are satisfied with your estimate about the length of the knife?
Put your fingers up, again.
A: That is where the handle would be and the blade would be about to this.
Q: You are indicating the handle would be about three inches and the blade would be up to about here -- show me.
A: About seven.
Q: So the handle would be about three inches and the blade would run up to --
A: I’d say eight.
Q: About five inches.
Was this a folding knife?
Q: Was this a knife that you put in the side of your belt like Tarzan would wear?
Do you know who Tarzan is? Have you seen him on television?
Q: A fellow swinging through the trees. Is that the kind of knife it would be?
A: It would hang on your belt or wherever you wanted to keep it.
Q: Was it a little knife that you put in your pocket?
A: There were some little knives.
Q: Now, did any of the girls, particularly Leslie Sankston, ever tell you anything that happened unusual that one night that she went out that something unusual happened?
Q: What about Katie, did she ever tell you anything unusual that happened one night?
Q: What about Sadie Glutz, did she ever tell you anything that happened unusual one night?
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you go back do you understand you are going to be in the same jail with Charlie Manson?
A: If I go back.
Q: I remind you, again, Rachel, you are under oath; do you understand that?
Q: And that means if you testify falsely under oath that is perjury; do you understand that?
Q: Do you understand that perjury is a crime?
Q: Do you understand it is a felony?
Q: Did you tell Charlie before you came down here to Los Angeles that they were bringing you down here?
Q: Did you see Charlie the day you came down here?
A: Yeah, I went to court that day.
Q: Did you talk to Charlie?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: And you told him that you and several other girls were being brought down to Los Angeles?
A: We didn’t know, they just stuck us in the booking room and told us to put our hands behind our backs.
Q: You didn’t see Charlie afterwards?
A: Not after court.
Q: Are you sure about that?
Q: You spoke to Charlie frequently when you were in custody up there at the jail; didn't you?
A: Whenever we go to court.
Q: Did Charlie ever tell you never to tell anyone anything about what he did?
Q: You're sure about that?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: Charlie used to have a large glass jug at Spahn Ranch; is that correct?
A: Yes, there were a couple of big Sparkletts bottles. They weren’t Charlie’s.
Q: Didn’t Charlie have one in particular?
Q: That he had helter-skelter put on that?
A: We had that when we had the nightclub.
Q: The nightclub?
Q: What is the nightclub?
A: We opened up the saloon as a nightclub.
Q: That is right on the Spahn Ranch?
Q: Did Charlie put helter-skelter on the jug?
A: I did.
Q: Did Charlie tell you to put helter-skelter on the jug?
Q: Why did you put helter-skelter on the jug?
A: Because I listened to the Beatles and they told me to paint the jug so I just put it on there.
Q: Charlie told you to paint the jug?
A: Yes. I don’t know if he told me directly, it was just getting everything ready and the jug had to be painted.
Q: How long before August the 16th was it that you painted this jug?
A: I don’t remember when the nightclub was opened but it was right before it opened up, but I don’t remember.
Q: Do you recall that you were arrested -- Rachel, you recall that you were arrested on August the 16th; is that correct?
Q: How long before August the 16th did you open up that nightclub?
A: It was a long time before that.
Q: A couple of weeks?
A: Oh, no.
Q: A couple of months?
A: About three, four months, I’d say, I’m not sure, but it seemed like a long time.
Q: You got this word helter-skelter from a Beatles album?
Q: Charlie liked that Beatle album quite a bit; right?
A: We all did.
Q: Charlie Manson did; right?
Q: Tex liked that Beatles album quite a bit, too; right?
Q: There was a song on that Beatles album called Blackbird; wasn’t there?
Q: Was the word rise or arise in that song called blackbird?
Q: Was it rise or arise?
A: I don’t think it was rise, I think it was fly. I can’t remember, I was just singing it to myself, blackbirds fly --
Q: Helter-skelter was in the album?
Q: It was the name of a song in the album?
Q: Charlie Manson and Tex played this album all the time; is that correct?
A: No, we listened to it for about a week straight and we never played it at the nightclub.
Q: So when it first came out the Manson group played that record, that album, all the time; is that correct?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: How did you get your groceries at the Barker Ranch?
A: People brought them.
Q: Did any of your Family ever leave Barker Ranch and go into Independence and one of the other towns to pick up some groceries?
A: Only when we were traveling, like when we traveled from different places we’d go through towns.
Q: Well, you were living at the Barker Ranch for a couple of months; weren’t you?
A: Yes, but not right there.
Q: Where were you living?
A: We lived outside. We just wandered all over the desert.
Q: But frequently one or more of you would go somewhere and buy some groceries; is that correct?
A: I don’t think anybody ever left to buy groceries. I think more people came and brung them up.
Q: And there were quite a few magazines at Barker Ranch; were there not?
A: Yeah, there were some in a big drawer.
Q: Who bought those magazines?
A: They were there.
Q: When were they there?
A: I don’t know, just the day before we got busted up there, before, I went to sleep -- went walking over into the hills to go to sleep. I didn’t know they were there before and I opened the drawer for something to do and found some magazines to read so I took them up with me. That is how I saw the magazines.
Q: Did Charlie Manson sleep inside that Barker Ranch, that ranchhouse?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Where did you sleep at the Barker Ranch?
A: We camped up behind Meyer’s Ranch and slept with the baby.
Q: Did you ever sleep in the bus?
A: When we first went there.
Q: You don’t know where Charlie Manson slept at the Barker Ranch?
A: Not all the time. Sometimes he would make a campsite and sleep there with the others.
Q: Did he ever sleep in the ranchhouse?
A: I don’t remember. I don’t remember him sleeping in the ranchhouse.
Q: Did you ever see Charlie Manson reading any of those magazines?
A: No, he doesn’t read.
Q: What about Tex?
Q: Why did you leave the Spahn Ranch for Barker Ranch; Rachel?
A: Because the police were bothering us.
Q: You mean at Spahn Ranch?
A: Yeah, we always wanted to go to the desert anyway.
Q: Who decided to go up to Barker Ranch?
A: We all did.
Q: Was Charlie the main one who decided to go up there?
Q: Who was?
A: Nobody was the main one.
Q: You mean you all got together at the same time and agreed to go up there?
Q: Did Tex drive the bus up first?
A: The bus came up a couple of years ago, or a year ago.
Q: Didn’t Tex ride the bus up there in the summer of 1969?
A: I don’t know who drove it.
Q: At the Barker Ranch Charlie and the rest of you continued to talk about the Tate case, I imagine?
A: I never heard.
Q: You never heard anyone talk about the Tate case?
Q: But they talked about the Tate case quite a bit at Spahn Ranch?
A: I never heard it there, either.
I heard it when we were watching the TV and it was on the first couple of days but I never heard anything.
Q: But everyone at the ranch was talking about it; right?
Q: What were they saying about it?
A: Nothing, they were just -- news that was on, a whole bunch of people got killed.
Q: Did Charlie talk about the Tate murders at all?
A: I didn’t ever personally hear him talk about it.
Q: What about Tex?
A: Not ever personally about it.
Q: How about Sadie Mae Glutz?
A: Yes, she talked about it when it happened on TV one day.
Q: Are you one of Charlie’s girls?
A: I’m one of the Family, I guess.
Q: You belong to Charlie; right?
Q: You will do whatever he tells you to do; right?
A: Well, it depends.
Q: If Charlie told you to go out and steal something you’d do it for him; wouldn’t you?
A: It depends on what it was.
Q: If he told you to go out and steal groceries you’d do it for him; wouldn’t you?
Q: Have you had sexual intercourse with Charlie?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: You are in love with Charlie; right?
Q: Are you in love with Tex?
MR. STOVITZ: We have no further questions from this witness.
THE FOREMAN: Does any member of the Jury have a question they would like to ask the witness?
Q BY MR. STOVITZ: Do you have any idea what the words helter-skelter mean?
A: It means in a frenzy, I think.
Q: In a frenzy?
A: I think so.
Q: All mixed up; is that right?
THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.
You may be excused.
MR. STOVITZ: She may discuss it with legal counsel.
THE FOREMAN: You may discuss this with your legal counsel but no one else.