Wednesday, September 1, 1971


9:35 A.M.

THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors, all counsel and defendant present.

Mr. Bubrick, you may proceed.

MR. KEITH: Call David Neale.

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, please.

You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truths, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?


called as a witness for the defendant, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Thank you. Take the stand and be seated; and would you state and spell your name, please?

THE WITNESS: David Lynn Neale; last name spelled N-e-a-l-e.

THE CLERK: Your middle name, please?


THE CLERK: Thank you.


Q: David, how old are you?

A: 27.

Q: And do you presently live in the Los Angeles County area?

A: Yes, sir, I do.

Q: Would that be in the San Fernando Valley?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Do you know Charles Watson, the defendant?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: When did you first become acquainted with Mr. Watson?

A: It must have been '65, in college, we were in college together.

Q: Now, what college was that, David?

A: North Texas State University, Denton, Texas.

Q: And where is Denton, say, in relation to Dallas?

A: It is approximately 40 miles north-northwest of Dallas.

Q: And is it what you might say a college town?

A: Yes, sir, it is.

Q: And were you yourself raised in Denton?

A: Yes. That is my hometown.

Q: Were you in the same class as Mr. Watson at North Texas State, or were you ahead of him?

A: I was a year ahead in school.

Q: Were you in the same fraternity?

A: Yes, I was.

Q: And what was that?

A: Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity.

Q: Were you a particularly close friend of Charles at North Texas State?

A: Not at that particular time, no, sir, I wasn't.

Q: You just knew him as another fraternity brother?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: At some time did you move to California?

A: I moved in '66.

Q: Did you complete your education?

A: No, sir, I didn't.

Q: Before you moved?

A: No, I didn't.

Q: How many years at North Texas State did you complete?

A: I attended a year and a half at North Texas. I was a senior when I moved to California.

Q: Again, approximately what was the date when you moved to California? Not the exact date but the year and the month, to the best of your recollection?

A: As best as I can recall, I would say the spring semester of '66.

Q: Sometime after your moving hers to California, did you return to Denton, not for any particular length of time necessarily, but once you got out here did you remain or did you return from time to time to Denton, your hometown?

A: No, sir. I remained in California.

Q: Sometime after your coming out here did you have occasion to see Mr. Watson?

A: Yes, sir, I did.

Q: And when was that for the first time?

A: I don't recall the particular date. I was living with my brother in Los Angeles and Charles was working for an airline in Dallas.

Q: You knew that of your own knowledge, did you?'

A: I didn't know that until he came out one weekend.

Q: Did Charles tell you that he was working for Braniff Airlines?

A: Yes, sir, he did.

Q: And when was that, approximately, when you saw him for the first time here in California?

A: I believe that was the fall of '67. I am not sure about the dates, though.

Q: At some time after that, Charles moved out to California and lived here more or less permanently, did he not?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: But before his moving here to live permanently did you see him from time to time?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And on how many occasions would you as you saw him in California before he picked up and moved here and by "he," I am referring to Charles, of course.

A: Well, over a period of two months, I would say eight times or so.

Q: During that two-month period, to your knowledge, was Charles working for Braniff Airlines?

A: Yes, sir, he was.

Q: And would he come out here on trips from Texas, if you know, as an employee of Braniff?

A: He was employed at the time. He was coming out on weekends on his own time.

Q: Now, when was it, approximately, when Charles moved out here to Southern California to stay?

A: I'm not real sure on the dates.

Q: Do you have an approximate month?

A: '67 -- I want to say June of '67; I'm not sure on the dates, though.

Q: After Charles came here did he live with you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And where were you living at that time?

A: I was living in Hollywood.

Q: And were you living with your brother at that time?

A: Yes, sir, I was.

Q: And what is his name?

A: His name is Jay Scott.

Q: Is that a stage name?

A: Yes, sir, it is; he's an actor.

Q: And is your brother older or younger than you are?

A: He is older.

Q: How old is he?

A: He's 31, I believe.

Q: Now, after Charles started to live with you and your brother in Hollywood, to your knowledge, did he enroll in any school?

A: Yes, sir; he enrolled at Cal State.

Q: Is that Cal State Los Angeles, if you know?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And to your knowledge did Charles attend Cal State for any period of time?

A: Yes, sir, he did. I don't recall the time he was in school, though.

Q: Can you tell us whether it was a relatively short period of time?

A: It was less than a semester; I know he didn't complete the semester.

Q: And during the time Charles was going to Cal State did he continue to live with you and your older brother?

A: Well, Charles and I moved to an apartment together.

Q: And where did you move?

A: We moved to the Echo Park district.

Q: And I gather that your brother didn't go along, with you and Charles.

A: No, sir, he didn't.

Q: After Charles dropped out of Cal State did he go into, to your knowledge, some kind of business?

A: Yes, sir. In fact, he was hired by a wig company in Beverly Hills while he was attending school.

Q: Did you also work for this wig company?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you --

A: Sometime later I was employed.

Q: Do you remember the name of the wig company?

A: Continental Wig Company.

Q: And do you know what Charles' function or duties was with the wig company?

A: Yes, sir. He was a salesman for the company.

Q: Now, how long, approximately, David, did you and Charles live in the Echo Park area?

A: Approximately three months; three to four months.

Q: And then did you and he move to another apartment or house?

A: Yes, sir, we did.

Q: And where did you go?

A: We moved to Laurel Canyon, which is in Hollywood.

Q: And did you and he again live together?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And at this time when you moved to Laurel Canyon was Charles still working as a wig salesman?

A: Yes, sir; and at this time I was employed, also.

Q: In the same wig company, Continental?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Now, at some time during this general period -- incidentally, can you fix a time or times when you recall Charles was employed by the wig company -- and you were, too, for that matter?

A: The dates?

Q: Not exact dates -- of course, if you can give us exact dates, fine; if you can't, your best recollection.

A: Well, it would have been spring of '67, fall of '68.

Q: You say spring of '67, or do you mean '68?

A: I'm not sure on the dates.

Q: Charles came out here to live with you in the summer or fall of '67; isn't that right?

A: Fall of -- it would have been '68, the spring of '68.

Q: And do you recall whether or not, David, Charles was in an accident of some kind during that period?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And did he injure himself?

A: Yes. He injured his knee. I was in the accident with him.

Q: When was the accident, approximately?

A: Well, it would have been approximately two to three months after we had moved to Laurel Canyon. I am not sure on the date again.

Q: And was Charles laid up for a time?

A: Yes, he was. In fact he underwent surgery at the time.

Q: And during that period of time I gather he wasn't able to work as a wig salesman.

A: He did on occasion go to the shop and do some work.

Q: Approximately how long would you say Charles worked in the wig business for Continental Wigs as a salesmen?

A: Well, he was employed -- Phil Kern was the gentleman that employed him.

Q: Would you spell the last name for the record?

A: K-e-r-n, I believe. I am not sure how to spell it. And he had Continental Wigs. Then he had another wig shop which was on La Cienega, I believe. In total Charles probably worked a year.

Q: Did you and he at one time open up your own wig shop with another partner?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: And when was this?

A: I'm not really sure on the date.

Q: Would it have been 1968?

A: I think it was the latter part of '68.

Q: You moved from Echo Park to Laurel Canyon; right?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And how long did you and Charles live in the Laurel Canyon area?

A: I believe about seven months.

Q: Then did you move some place else?

A: Yes. We moved from there to Malibu.

Q: Did you --

A: Actually it is this side of Malibu.

Q: Did you rent a place there in Malibu?

A: Yes.

Q: And again were you and he living together?

A: Yes, we. were.

Q: And when you were living in Malibu was Charles still in the wig business to your knowledge?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: At some time while you were living with him in Malibu, did you meet a man named Dennis Wilson?

A: My first encounter with Dennis Wilson -- Charles had come home one afternoon and was telling me about going to Dennis’ and sometime later I. went up to meet Dennis.

Q: And where were you living at this time when Charles told you he had met Dennis. Wilson, do you remember?

A: Well, we were living in Malibu. I keep saying Malibu. It is actually this side of Topanga Canyon, on the beach.

Q: You did have occasion then to meet Dennis Wilson?

A: Yes.

Q: And did he have a house some place where you met him?

A: Yes. He had a home on Sunset.

Q: Was this in Pacific Palisades?

A: Yes, I believe it was.

Q: Did you also meet a man by the name of Charles Manson?

A: Yes, sir, I did.

Q: And where did you meet him for the first time?

A: I met him in Malibu at the house.

THE COURT: Your house?


Q BY MR. KEITH: Your house?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And did he come to your place in Malibu once or more than once?

A: More than once. Only once while I was there.

Q: What you are telling us is that you heard of other occasions he may have come there?

A: Well, I had come to the house -- we had leased the house, or were leasing the house for a period of time. We had planned to lease it for a month, sublease it, and I had been staying with some friends and I came back to the house and Charles Manson had been there and he left four or five teenage girls there to take care of the house and they wouldn't let me in the house.

Q: The teenage girls?

A: Right; they had. the doors locked.

Q: Did you ultimately gain entrance?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: And would this be sometime in the summer or late summer of 1968, when you couldn't get in your house because the girls were there?

A: I think it must have been somewhere in there.

Q: To your knowledge, did Charles begin to live at Dennis Wilson's house?

A: He was living at Dennis' for a time, yes.

Q: And did you ever meet a man by the name of Dean Moorehouse?

A: Yes, sir, I did.

Q: Where did you meet him?

A: I met him at Dennis'.

Q: Were you a frequent visitor at Dennis' during this period?

A: No, I wasn't. In fact, I had only gone to Dennis' on two or three different occasions.

Q: Did you ever see Manson at Dennis Wilson's?

A: No, I didn't.

Q: Did you see -- I think you did tell us you saw Dean Moorhouse at Dennis'?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And to your knowledge, did Charles become friendly or close with Dean Moorehouse?

A: Yes.

In fact, he almost became like a father to him.

Q: You mean Dean became like a father to Charles?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you ever have any philosophical discussions with Moorehouse in the presence of Mr. Watson?

A: Yes, sir, on occasion.

Q: Was this at Dennis Wilson's place?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And do you remember the general subject matters that were discussed?

A: Well, we discussed LSD, the meaning of life, fulfillment; his basic philosophy was a feeling of oneness, having everyone as brothers and sisters, a Utopia.

Q: You were talking about Dean Moorehouse's basic philosophy?

A: Yes, air.

Q: And was Charles there on this occasion, or occasions?

A: I don't -- I think he was; I think he was at this particular time,

THE COURT: When you say "Charles," you are talking about Watson?

MR. KEITH: Charles Watson, yes.

Q: Now, up to the time Charles Watson started living at Dennis Wilson's with Dean Moorehouse, how long would you say you and he had been together?

As long as a year?

A: Over a year, yes, sir.

Q: So you became, I daresay, quite well acquainted --

A: Yes, sir.

Q: -- with Charles; and I daresay you considered him a good friend?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: During this period of time of over a year, what sort of a person did Mr. Watson appear to you to be, a sort of a brief personality profile?

A: Well, he was very outgoing; not obnoxious, but outgoing, friendly.

I remember in college he enjoyed socializing. He partied quite a bit, was active in the fraternity.

Q: No, while you knew him closely --

A: Well, the way I knew him was more like a brother. We became very close.

Q: Except for one occasion that I will go into, did you ever see Charles do anything of a violent nature?

A: Never.

Q: Did you ever see him attack anybody --

A: Never.

Q: -- or threaten anybody?

A: No, sir.

Q: Would you characterize him as just a very nice guy?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And during this period of time when you were together with him and became very close to him, like a brother, did you ever see Charles smoke marijuana?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And did he smoke marijuana on a number of occasions, to your knowledge?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did your ever see him during this period of over a year that you were with him use anything, you might say, stronger than marijuana?

A: There was one incident. We were given some seeds from -- rosewood seeds, I believe they were.

Q: Now, when you say "we," you are referring to yourself and Charles?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And where were you at that time?

A: We were on Wonderland; we were living in Laurel Canyon at the time.

Q: So Wonderland Drive is the Laurel Canyon address?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And did you see Charles take these seeds?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see what reaction befell him, if any?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And what happened?

A: It was about probably two hours after we had taken the seeds, I was laying down in my bedroom and I heard Charles jump up and he was hitting the wall; and as I opened the door, he ran out of his room and into a hallway and there was a door to a bathroom -- I don't recall if he kicked it -- I think he hit it with his hand, but he put a hole through the door; and I grabbed him and began talking to him and wrestled with him for a moment and finally calmed him down; and he went back to bed and I stayed in the room and talked with him for a few minutes; and that was it.

Q: Did you ever during this over a year period that you were close to him see him use any acid or speed?

A: No.

Q: Or belladonna?

A: No

Q: Were you aware that Charles went to the Spahn Ranch to live with Charles Manson at the time that happened?

A: No, sir.

THE COURT: Just a moment. When you say "at the time that happened" are you referring to this rosewood seed incident?

MR. KEITH: No, I will reframe the question.

Q: What I meant was were you aware that Charles Watson went to live at the Spahn Ranch when it happened or did you hear about it sometime later?

A: He had gone to the ranch?

Q: Yes.

A: I was aware that he was with Charles Manson.

Q: And when did you first learn that?

A: Well, he told me that he was going to be with Charles Manson.

Q: All right.

Do you have any recollection of the approximate date when Charles Watson told you he was going to live with Charles Manson?

A: No, sir. I don't know what the date would be.

Q: Would it have been in 1968 sometime?

A: I believe so, yes.

Q: Would it be after Charles Watson met Dennis Wilson?

A: Yes, it was.

Q: And Manson at the beach.

A: Yes.

Q: And would it have been after you knew Charles Watson had become close to Dean Morehouse?

A: Yes, sir, In fact, I think he met Charles Manson through Dean Morehouse.

Q: Were you still living at this leased house in Malibu when Charles Watson told you he was going to the Spahn Ranch to be with Manson?

A: No, I wasn't.

Q: Where were you at that time?

A: I was staying with some friends in Studio City.

Q: And were you subleasing this house in Malibu at that time?

A: We had plans to and we had sublet it for a month and when I went back to check on the house is when the girls were there.

Q: Did you know whether this was, when the girls were there, whether this was before or after Charles Watson told you he was going to the Spahn Ranch?

A: This was before. He told me this during that period

Q: This was all about the same time?

A: I don't believe that they had moved to the ranch. In fact, they were living at our house in Malibu. When I went back to the house, the girls were there and they had set up camp in our house.

Q: You have to be careful about using just "they."

You have to keep the record straight.

A: Charles Manson, a number of teenage girls and Charles Watson.

Q: Did you ever see Charles Watson while he was living at the Spahn Ranch, actually at the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you go up there --

A: Yes, sir.

Q: -- from time to time. And was this shortly after Charles Watson moved to the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What was he doing there, if anything?

A: At the ranch?

Q: Yes.

A: Well, when I went to the ranch for the first time they were working in the yard and not really doing much of anything.

Q: And had you noticed any change about Charles Watson at that time when you visited him at the Spahn Ranch?

A: Not a drastic change, but I had noticed a bit of a change in his personality.

Q: In what sense? Could you describe it for us as best you can?

A: Well, he seemed to have -- he was beginning to have an absence of emotion. He had a very blank look on his face.

Q: Anything else you can tell us?

A: Well, I know he was taking acid -- he had become to take a great deal of acid.

Q: How did you know that?

A: He told me.

Q: How any occasions, on how many occasions did you visit Charles Watson at the Spahn Ranch after he had moved out there with Manson?

A: Well, I had gone to the ranch maybe two or three different occasions, and Charles had come into town.

Q: By Charles, we have got to keep it straight who we are talking about.

Mr. Watson?

A: Tex had come to town.

Q: You didn't call him Tex?

A: No, I didn't.

Q: You called him Charles, did you not?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: So you saw Charles in town?

A: He would come to town once or twice a week.

Q: And you would see him then?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And did you notice the same gradual change?

A: Yes, and slowly he began to -- I began to see him less and less.

Q: Let me interrupt you to establish a date. At some time you were inducted into the Army, were you not?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And do you remember when that was?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And when was that?

A: December of '68.

Q: On these occasions that you saw Charles Watson after he moved to the Spahn Ranch, was this before you were inducted into the Army?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And would you say the period we are now discussing would be the latter part of 1968 when you noticed this change in him?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: When you saw Charles after he -- Charles Watson -- after he moved to the Spahn Ranch, whether at the Spahn Ranch or when Charles came into town, did Charles ever talk philosophically with you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And what did he talk about, generally, on that subject?

A: Well, he talked generally about Charles most of the time --

Q: About --

A: About Manson.

Q: And this was, now -- we are talking about a period of time before you went in the army; right?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And what did Mr. Watson say about Mr. Manson, in substance or effect, if you can recall?

A: Well, he had put him on a level, felt that he was Jesus Christ.

Q: Is this what Charles Watson told you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And anything else that you can remember during this period of time?

A: This was during, well, just prior to my being inducted into the service, Charles called me --

Q: I was going to get to that, and where were you living at that time?

A: I was living with my brother, who was living in Highland Park.

Q: And you received, a call from Charles Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: And this was just before you want in the army; is that right?

A: Yes, sir; and I hadn't seen him, oh, for, I would say, over six weeks. He called me --

Q: All right; but just before going into the telephone call, Charles Watson had talked to you about Manson and how he thought Manson was Jesus Christ?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And something about Manson's philosophy?

A: Yes, sir; at length.

Q: All right. Now, getting back to the telephone call -- incidentally, how did Charles know how to reach you, if you know?

A: I don't recall.

Q: Pardon me?

A: I don't recall.

Q: At any rate, Charles Watson called --

A: I think the way he got the number was through the friends that I was living within Studio City.

Q: And you were living at Highland Park

A: Yes, sir.

Q: -- when Watson called you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And did he express something about what was happening to him during this telephone conversation?

A: Yes, sir. He had gone through a complete reversal of anything that he ever believed as far as Manson, it seemed. He was almost frightened over the phone and asked me if there was room for him to come stay, he was afraid of the girls and also of Manson, and he was --

THE COURT: Just try to recall what he said and tell us what he said, please.

THE WITNESS: Well, he said he was frightened, he was frightened of what Manson and what the girls were doing and he felt that he was going insane, could he come stay with me.

BY MR. KEITH: And did Charles come and stay with you?

A: Yes, he did.

Q: This was in Highland Park?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How long did Charles stay with you?

A: He was there -- he was in Highland Park up until the time I was drafted, which was December 2nd.

Q: December 2nd, 1968?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And did Charles, himself, report for induction, if you know?

A: Yes, sir, he did.

Q: And do you know what the result of the physical was?

A: Yes, sir; as a result of the knee injury that he suffered, I think he was given a 1-Y classification. He wasn't inducted.

Q: And you went off to the army?

A: Yes sir,

Q: Now, during this two-week period when Charles was -- Watson -- was staying with you in Highland Park, did you and he have any further discussion abort Manson and the girls?

A: Yes.

Q: And did these discussions continue along the same lines as the telephone conversation, or what?

A: We talked of Manson's philosophy and we talked of the hold that he seemed to have on him and the hold that he seemed to have on the people were at the ranch; and I remember explicitly Charles saying that he felt he was losing his identity, didn't really know who he was when he was there.

Q: Did you try to make some effort to bring him out of this state of mind?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And you don't know whether you were successful or not, I suppose?

A: No, sir, I don't.

Q: When you left for the army did you have occasion to see Charles Watson again while you were actually in the service?

A: Yes, sir, I did.

Q: And on how many occasions?

A: Two separate times.

Q: When, approximately, was the first time?

A: The first time was in -- well, December, '68, I came home on a Christmas leave.

Q: And where did you see Mr. Watson?

A: If I’m not mistaken, he was still staying at the house, still living in Highland Park with my brother.

Q: During this two-week period -- remember us talking about the two-week period after Charles called you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And he stayed with you in Highland Park -- did his brother also stay with the two of you?

A: Yes, sir — my brother.

Q: Not "his" but your brother, I'm sorry.

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And where was Charles, again, late in December when you came home for Christmas leave?

A: Well, her was living -- I think he was living in town but he was staying with my brother part of the time. He was traveling back and forth.

Q: At any rate, he wasn't back at the Spahn Ranch?

A: No, at this time he wasn't.

Q: Now, when approximately was the next time you saw Charles, Charles Watson?

A: I want to say June of '69 -- I'm not sure of the date. It was -- I was going to -- I had orders to go to Vietnam and I was home on leave and I was staying with a friend in Hollywood.

(Missing page)

Q: Do you remember who they were, the young girls? Were you introduced?

A: Yes, sir. I think one of them was Patricia Krenwinkel but I am not sure.

Q: Do you know who the other one was?

A: Not for sure, no.

Q: How did, if you know, Watson know how to find you in Hollywood?

A: I think that I had called him at the ranch trying to get in touch with him. He had left a number with my brother.

Q: Now, on this occasion in June or so of 1969 when Mr. Watson came to where you were living with two girls from the ranch, did you have a discussion with him?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And on this occasion did you notice any change in him from the way you had seen him last?

A: I didn't recognize him at first. That is the difference, in the change.

Q: What was it about his appearance that made it difficult for you to recognize him?

A: Well, physically, he had lost a great deal of weight.

He was smoking cigarettes, which I had never seen him do and he had a stare, absence of emotion almost.

Q: Was it more pronounced, this absence of emotion?

A: Yes, it was.

Q: Than when you had seen him after this telephone call?

A: Yes, definitely.

Q: And did you have a discussion with him?

A: Yes, sir, I did.

Q: And did you and he take a walk?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did the girls from the ranch go with you?

A: The girls did not go along. They remained at the house.

Q: What did Charles tell you, Charles Watson, in substance?

A: Well, he asked me to come to the ranch and to live and he explained Charles Manson's philosophy, which was now his, and he explained helter skelter and he told me that there was going to be a revolution in the country.

He didn't say — he did say that Charles Manson well, the thing that kept throwing me was he kept referring to Charles Manson, the girls, and himself as one. They were all the same.

Q: Go on. Anything else you can remember?

A: I remember him telling me of helter skelter, of the revolution, and that it would be happening in this country within a matter of months.

Q: What did you say to him, if anything?

A: Well, for starters no about going to the ranch and living with the people. There really wasn't much reasoning. I didn't really know him. He was a completely different person.

Q: How long did you see him on this occasion? A matter of hours?

A: A matter of an hour and a half or two hours.

Q: And did he constantly talk about Manson and helter skelter and the concept of oneness?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Then did he leave with the girls?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did his appearance and did his conversation disturb you or distress you in any way?

A: It disturbed me mainly because I didn't -- he had completely lost his identity from the Charles that I knew. It wasn't the same person.

Q: Did you ever see him again after that?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you try to contact him at all or did he try to, or did he contact you over the telephone, if you know?

A: No, sir.

Q: When you saw him in June of '69, other than his dress, did he look something as he looks today?

A: Well, his hair was longer. He was not quite as thin, but he was thinner than I had ever seen him. He was explaining to me how he was living on the desert and was living strictly off of the desert. Any food that was obtained was obtained from the desert. He was adapting himself to the desert -- was another one of the things we talked about.

THE COURT: Did he mention a bottomless pit to you?


MR. KEITH: I have nothing further at this time.


Q: David, you say that Mr. Watson told you in June of '69 that helter skelter, the revolution, would be happening in a couple of months.

Did he tell you how it was going to start?

A: No he didn't; he didn't mention it.

Q: What did he say about helter skelter, about the revolution?

A: He just mentioned that through acid and through a level of understanding that Charles Manson was on, and he was also on, they had listened to enough music that the Beatles were putting out at this time and he -- being Charles Manson had decided that helter skelter was what was going to happen.

Q: Did Tex say that he thought that this was what was going to happen?

A: Well, he was talking almost as if he were -- when I would ask him about Charles Manson or about the girls he would say, "We are the same, so if you ask me about one of them you are asking me about me."

Q: Now, how well did you know Charles back in the fraternity in Texas?

A: I knew him to -- not closely, but I knew him; we were friends.

(Missing page)

A: Approximately $150 a week. I know he was selling more wigs and doing better -- he was a salesman at that time.

Q: And where was the wig shop located?

A: It was located on Canon Drive in Beverly Hills.

Q: Now, when you and Charles opened your wig shop where was that wig shop?

A: That was on San Vicente, Beverly Hills.

Q: And how long did you have this wig shop together?

A: I'm not sure of the time; four months, five months.

Q: And was this a prosperous business or what?

A: No, not really; that's why we closed the shop.

Q: Did you mutually close the shop?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: In other words, it was a mutual decision?

A: Right.

Q: Now, this occasion where you say that you and Mr. Watson took rosewood seeds, when would that be; could you place a date in relationship to, say, when you had this wig shop together in December of '68?

Was that before?

A: This was just as we had moved to Laurel Canyon, after we had been there, oh, a month.

Q: And when would that be as far as --

A: I don't recall the dates.

Q: When would that be in relationship to when you opened the wig shop together?

A: Oh, seven months, eight months.

Q: Now, on approximately how many occasions did you and Mr. Watson smoke marijuana together?

MR. KEITH: That assumes facts not in evidence, that he smoked any.

Q BY MR. KAY: Well, smoke any?

A: Yes.

Q: On how many occasions did you and Mr. Watson' smoke marijuana together while you were living together?

A: Oh, numerous occasions.

Q: Well, what would that be; 30, 40?

A: Thirty or forty separate times? Probably at least that.

Q: Were any other drugs taken by either you or Mr. Watson during that period --

A: None.

Q: -- other than the rosewood seeds and the marijuana

A: No.

Q: Now, you say that the time you saw Mr. Watson out at Spahn Ranch sometime, before December of '68 you told. Mr.Keith that it appeared that Mr. Watson somewhat had an absence of emotion.

What did you base this on; did you tell him a joke and he didn't laugh, or what?

A: Well, when I went to the ranch, as I recall, there were girls -- they were cooking dinner and there was really a look on. -- I don't know at that particular time if they were on acid or what, but there was very little emotion from anyone, other than the old man, the blind old man, Spahn.

Q: George Spahn?

A: Spahn; he was there; and he would occasionally ask a question, but the girls and Charles -- Tex -- seemed to be -- I thought they were stoned on something. l didn't know what, but there was just no reaction.

Q: There was no reaction to what?

A: Well, to questions.

Q: By you?

A: By me and by the old man.

Q: Would they just not answer your questions?

A: They would either not answer the or for the most part just stare.

Q: Without answering the questions?

A: Without answering.

Q: What type of questions were these that you asked?

A: "It's a nice day --" anything. They would just -- they were not -- not only weren't they friendly, they were almost scary.

Q: You felt somewhat that you were unwelcome there; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Watson seem unhappy at all when he was living with you at any stage?

A: Unhappy?

Q: Yes, unhappy with society, with his life, with college?

A: No.

Q: Do you remember who this other girl was besides you think it was Patricia Krenwinkel, possibly that came over when you were on this leave from the army, when Tex came over to your place in Hollywood, the place that you were staying.

Do you remember?

A: I don't remember who the -- there were three girls. I remember that.

Q: Three girls?

A: Right.

Q: And when you and Tex went on this walk, they stayed in the house?

A: Yes, sir, they did.

Q: Did Tex ask them to stay in the house so he could go on the walk or did you ask them to stay or did they just stay?

A: I don't recall how that happened. I think we just -- I think we were talking in the kitchen and we just walked through the -- they were sitting in the living room talking with some friends of mine and we just walked out the front door and took a walk.

Q: So just about every time you saw Mr. Watson after he started living with the Manson family he always had girls around, is that correct, or there always seemed to be girls around?

A: He always seemed to have someone from the ranch with him?

Q: Female?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: And generally more than one?

A: Yes, generally.

Q: Did you ever see Mr. Watson take LSD?

A: I had seen him under the influence of LSD, yes.

Q: And when you say you had seen him under the influence, did you see him take what you knew to be LSD or did he just ten you he had taken LSD?

A: I think her had told me but I recall seeing him with capsules.

Q: And was this out at the Spahn Ranch?

A: This was out at the Spahn Ranch, yes.

Q: And was he violent on that occasion?

A: No.

Q: How did he act?

A: There was very little emotion. He wasn't violent. He seemed to be almost lost as if he were in a daze, but he was smiling. He wasn't unhappy.

Q: Didn't threaten you or anybody that was around him?

A: No.

Q: So the last time that you saw Mr. Watson was June of '69; is that right?

A: I am not sure about the date, but that is close.

Q: Until today?

A: I have seen him since then.

Q: What? In jail?

A: Yes.

Q: How many times have you visited him in jail?

A: Two times.

Q: When was that?

A: It has been about two weeks ago and then about, oh, two weeks before that.

Q: Did you discuss your testimony at all with him? What you were going to say in court?

A: No.

Q: When is the first time, you ever told anybody about this phone conversation in December, or before you got inducted, the phone conversation with Mr. Watson?

A: When was the first time?

Q: Yes.

A: I told my brother just after he called.

Q: Did you ever contact the police or law enforcement authorities about any of this information that you are telling as today?

Q: No.

A: And besides this marijuana and the rosewood seeds have you ever taken any other drug?

MR. KEITH: Object to the question as irrelevant.

THE COURT: With Watson.

THE WITNESS: With Watson?



MR. KAY: I think it might go to his state of mind, your Honor, whether he has ever seen the other.

THE COURT: It might but I don't think so.

MR. KAY: May I have just a moment, your Honor?


Q BY MR. KAY: When Tex told you that he was living strictly off the desert, when you saw him in June of '69, did he say exactly what he was eating? Like cactus plants or what?

A: He said he was adapting to the desert and he was eating cactus or plants of the desert, but mostly just drinking water. He wasn't eating very much of anything.

MR. KAY: I have no further questions.

MR. KEITH: May I reopen for just a question or two?

THE COURT: Go ahead.


Q: David, before Charles ever went to the Spahn Ranch, some abort time before, did you ever have conversations with Charles Watson about the subject of giving material things away?

A: Yes, sir.

A: And when and where did that conversation take place?

Did I say "Manson"?

A: No.

THE COURT: "Watson."

MR. KEITH: I thought I said "Watson." Mr. Bubrick said --

MR. BUBRICK: I'm sorry. I thought this was a conversation with Manson.

THE COURT: Those things happen.

Q BY MR. KEITH: My question was, when and where was that conversation?

A: This conversation -- well, it happened on several occasions; but, as I recall, it was when he first started living with, staying at Dennis Wilson's house.

Q: And what did Mr. Watson tell you on the subject of material possessions?

A: It wasn't so much what he told me as his actions. He was giving --

Q: Well, don’t tell us -- do you know this of your own knowledge that he gave things away?

A: Do I know that he gave things away?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: Alright, tell us what you saw him do while he was living at Dennis'.

A: Well, I know he gave some Stereo equipment away, a pickup truck, the majority of his clothes or all of his clothes except for a pair of jeans or two.

Q: Do you know to whom he gave these things?

A: At the time, anyone who asked.

Q: And did he ever discuss with you the concept of sharing everything with everybody and that no one should own anything?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And what did he say on that subject?

By "he" I am referring to Watson now.

A: Well, he said that material -- there was no -- how did he put it? -- there is no need in material possessions; there is no need to have them.

Q: Did he tell you this at or about the time he was giving everything he owned away?

A: Yes.

Q: And did he ever tell you where he learned this philosophy from, or did you know?

A: Well, this was through Manson. He was with -- he talked about after being at Dennis' and after meeting Manson.

Q: "He," now is Charles Watson?

A: Charles Watson talked of Manson after meeting him, began talking about him everytime I would see him, about the things they were doing as far as spiritually being like one and being together; and the material things they were giving away.

I asked him once if they were keeping material things and he said no, when they got material things if someone else needed it worse than they did, they passed them on.

Q: Who is "they," Manson and the girls?

A: Manson and the girls; Charles Watson.

Q: Were you aware that Manson was the one who actually got the truck and the camera equipment?

MR. KAY: I believe this assumes facts not in evidence; I believe the testimony is that Ruth Moorehouse got the truck.

MR. KEITH: I will withdraw the question.

THE COURT: You are right; that's the testimony.

MR. KEITH: I have nothing further.

MR. KAY: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Thank you; you may be excused.

Suppose we have our morning recess at this time.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will have our morning recess at this time and, once again, please heed the usual admonition.