SERGEANT WHITELEY: We will start this at 5:31

Would you state your, uh, full name?

MR. DeCARLO: Daniel Thomas DeCarlo.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And how old are you, Mr. DeCarlo?

MR. DeCARLO: Twenty-five.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And your home address?

MR. DeCARLO: ****

THE REPORTER: 35 what?

MR. DeCARLO: ****

THE REPORTER: e-g-i-o?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Uh-Directing your attention to the month of July of this year, did you hear a conversation at Spahn's Ranch regarding a Gary Hinman?

MR. DeCARLO: Yeah.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Something - some plans that were being formulated?

MR. DeCARLO: Yeah.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Would you explain what, what you heard in, in your own words?

MR. DeCARLO: You mean just what I - was at the ranch?

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Yeah.

THE REPORTER: Talk to me.

MR. DeCARLO: Yeah. Oh.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Just what you ran down, Danny.

MR. DeCARLO: Uh - They were gonna get 20 grand.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Well, before you begin, though, this conversation was taking place between whom?

MR. DeCARLO: Well --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Now, you were talking about --

MR. DeCARLO: -- me and Charlie --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: -- information is being formulated by Charlie Manson and a few others, whose getting pieces, then move you in to what Robert Beausoleil

DEPUTY GUENTHER: (indistinguishable)

MR. DeCARLO: (indistinguishable)

SERGEANT WHITELEY: -- ask you?

THE REPORTER: Hold it now. We're all talking at the same time.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you get - can you finish that?

MR. DeCARLO: Uh - Charlie was telling me he knew where he was gonna - they were gonna get 20 grand pretty soon; that, uh-uh - they knew a guy named Gary who had the money, and they're gonna go up there and try to get it off of him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay. Were they gonna do anything else besides get money?

MR. DeCARLO: No. They're -- they were just gonna go up there and try to talk him out of his money.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. Later, did you have a conversation with, uh, Bobby Beausoleil?

MR. DeCARLO: Yeah.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And where did this conversation take place?

MR. DeCARLO: In the bunkhouse.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And is that at Spahn Ranch?

MR. DeCARLO: Yeah.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: In Chatsworth?

MR. DeCARLO: Yeah.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And who else was present?

MR. DeCARLO: Just me and Bobby at the time. Now there could have been other people walkin' in and out of the place, but as far as the conversation went, it was directed to me and nobody else; but directed right to me.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did this conversation take place in the nighttime or in the daytime?

MR. DeCARLO: It took place in the daytime in the late afternoon, four or five o'clock in the afternoon.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Now did Robert Beausoleil tell you anything at that time about where he had been the past few days?

MR. DeCARLO: He was up at Gary's house.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Would you relate what he told you about what happened at Gary's house?

MR. DeCARLO: Well, him, Sadie, and Mary, went up to Gary's house to talk to him about givin' him this money.

THE REPORTER: "Giving him" or "getting"?

MR. DeCARLO: Giving and getting, both. And, uh, he ran down to me that, uh -- uh --

DEPUTY GUENTHER: While he was up there --

MR. DeCARLO: While he was up there --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Sit back and relax, Danny, and, uh, and, uh -- he went up there and, uh, there's Sadie, and now you're speaking of Sadie Glutz?

MR. DeCARLO: Sadie Glutz, right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And Mary Brunner?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. They went to the house and they saw Gary?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did they have anything with 'em?

MR. DeCARLO: They had a nine millimeter automatic.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And did they have anything else, any other type of weapons?

MR. DeCARLO: He had a -- Gary -- I mean Bobby had the knife, a little knife on him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Could you describe this knife?

MR. DeCARLO: It was a small miniature Bowie knife.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And did it have anything on it, on the blade?

MR. DeCARLO: Uh -- Markings? Not that I know.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Any type of designs or inscriptions?

MR. DeCARLO: There was a funny design on the handle. What kind of design on it, it was, I don't know. It's bright, real bright colors, and pretty.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And what did he carry this in?

MR. DeCARLO: He carried a leather sheath on his hip. A belt.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When you say "a leather," is this a hard leather or soft --

MR. DeCARLO: Soft leather.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: -- leather?

MR. DeCARLO: Soft leather, buckskin.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Buckskin --

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: -- type? Would you recognize this knife if you saw it again?

MR. DeCARLO: I sure would.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay. Now Mary, Sadie, and Bobby, as Bobby is relating to you, went to Gary's house?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And they had this -- he had this knife with him and a nine millimeter automatic?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What happened when they got there?

MR. DeCARLO: They went in there, and they sat down and talked to Gary about old bull-shit times, uh -- "How you doin'? What's goin' on?" "Yeah. Whad'ayuh been doin'"? "Yeah, you --"

THE REPORTER: Hold it now. Let's --

MR. DeCARLO: Oh.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: A little -- just a little bit slower, Danny.

MR. DeCARLO: Uh -- "Whad'ayuh been doin? How's it been goin'? Uh -- Whad'ayuh been up to?" Just general bull-shit. Then, out of the clear blue sky, he pulled out the pistol. He said, "Lookie here, I want your money. I want 20 grand. Where's it at?" "I don't have 20 grand." "I hear your did." "Well, I don't have it." "You got anything in the house her that's of any value?" "No." Okay, I'll end the conversation there. About that time, he gave the gun to Sadie. He said, "Watch him."

SERGEANT WHITELEY: So we get everybody straight here as players, Bobby gave the gun to Sadie to watch Gary?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And this conversation is between Bobby and Gary over "Give me the money?"

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay.

MR. DeCARLO: Definitely.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. Now Sadie got the gun?

MR. DeCARLO: Yes. Gary got up and went into another room, lookin' for whatever he was lookin' for, money or whatever, especially the 20 grand. All right, he heard Sadie say: "Gary, sit down. Now look, Gary, I'm tellin' you sit down right now or there's gonna be some trouble." Gary --

THE REPORTER: Hold it, you're losin' me there.

MR. DeCARLO: Oh.

THE REPORTER: "We heard Sadie say, "Gary, sit down."

MR. DeCARLO: Yeah.

THE REPORTER: Go on.

MR. DeCARLO: So Bobby ran, from this particular room he was in, back to where Saide and Gary and Mary were. About the same time, all three of them got together; whereas, Bobby got the -- to Sadie who had the pistol, and Bobby -- I mean Gary got to Sadie who had the pistol, and then Bobby got to both of them, and they were wrestling for the gun and it went off. The bullet sailed into a sink, when through a drain pipe, the bottom part of the skink, it ricocheted off the wall, went through the house, and into a dirt embankment in the back. Bobby started fuckin' him up, punchin' him, to settle him down. So, he gave Charlie a call.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Now you're speaking of Charlie Manson?

MR. DeCARLO: Right. "You better get up here. Bobby -- "I mean" -- Gary ain't cooperating." So Gary -- aw, man. Charlie and Bruce went up to Gary's house.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay.

MR. DeCARLO: So, Charlie and Bruce walked into the house, and Gary came up to 'em and said: "Look, get your people and get the hell outta here and leave me alone. Get out of my house." And Charlie had this sword, and Charlie hit him with the sword, and he cut his ear off and Gary fell down. Then Charlie said, "Look, you can cooperate with him, give us everything you got and you ain't gonna get hurt. I want your money and anything else of any value or you're gonna get killed." But Gary still wasn't goin' for it; and, so, they left. They left approximately five minutes after they got there.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Now there --

MR. DeCARLO: Charlie and Bruce.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay

MR. DeCARLO: So, Bobby stayed there and proceeded to punch Gary again, knock him around to his senses. This went on for maybe three or four hours more. THen he called up Charlie at the ranch. He told Charlie: "Gary ain't cooperating. He knows too much. We have to clear out of here, he's in pretty bad shape. Wha'll -- wha'll -- wha'd'yuh want me to do." Charlie says, "You better take care of him. You're gonna have to kill him; that's all there is to it." Bobby said, "All right," and hung the phone up; and, then, Bobby proceeded to -- he went back to Gary and, uh, took out his knife and stuck him with it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Now when you say "he took out his knife," at this time, when you were having the conversation with Robert Beausoleil, did he at this time pull out his knife and say that this was the knife he did it with?

MR. DeCARLO: Right. Yes, it was. Definitely.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And this is the knife that you previously described --

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: -- I mean --

MR. DeCARLO: The same little knife that's a little next to the Bowie knife.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Wait until I finished what I am saying.

MR. DeCARLO: Okay.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. This is the knife that, uh, was in a soft leather sheath, and it had a funny-type handle and, you said, with bright colors:?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. And it's a Bowie type?

MR. DeCARLO: A Bowie-type knife.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. Now let's go back a little bit here. Bobby called Charlie and said: "He is not co-operating," and Charlie told him to kill him, Gary Hinman?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And, then, he did kill Gary?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And how did he explain to you that he killed him?

MR. DeCARLO: He said he walked up to him and he grabbed Gary. Whether it was by the arms, whether it was around the neck, that I don't know but he grabbed him; in what manner, I'm not sure but he stuck him with the knife in the stomach, and Gary fought and he stuck him again, and he kept on stickin' him with the knife to finally he fell down to the ground, and Bobby knelt down next to him, on the ground, and he was gettin' ready to go; he was gettin' ready to die; he was dying, breathin' his last breath; and Bobby said: "This is -- that's the best way for you to go. You should thank me that I should put you out of this misery," and about that time, he said, he died right there in front of him, right there. So, after he was dead, they took and smeared, uh --"Kill the piggies," or "Kill the pigs," something along that line, and then put a panther claw, to deviate the Black Panthers, on the wall.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And this was done in what?

MR. DeCARLO: In blood, in Gary's blood.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And you said, "they did it." Who is "they?"

MR. DeCARLO: Well, I won't say they. I'll say Bobby did it. Now Bobby didn't say whether Sadie helped him or whether Mary helped him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay. Uh -- They then left the, the house?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did they take anything when they left?

MR. DeCARLO: They supposedly. They came back with that Toyota and the Volkswagen bus.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. Did Robert Beausoleil tell you this?

MR. DeCARLO: He didn't tell me whether they, they, they just came. They just showed up at the ranch in those two cars which belonged to Gary Hinman.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Robert Beausoleil, subsequently, return to the Hinman house?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And what was the purpose in returning?

MR. DeCARLO: Was to -- to go back there and wipe down the fingerprints again and to wipe the blood off of the wall that they put up there previously. That's the sole purpose they went back for, to clean the place up and recheck the place; I mean, for prints and to wipe the blood off the wall.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who returned to the house?

MR. DeCARLO: Bobby for sure, maybe Sadie; but Bobby for sure.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay. Did you hear anything about pink slips to, to the cars?

MR. DeCARLO: Other than they wanted Gary to sign over the pink slips to his cars. That was the -- one of the intentions on goin' up there, to have him sign over the pink slips to his cars.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: So their --

MR. DeCARLO: -- two of his cars.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: -- purpose then is going to the Hinman house was not only for twenty thousand dollars, but it was also to get him to sign over the pink slips to his cars?

MR. DeCARLO: And anything else they can get ahold of.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And anything of value?

MR. DeCARLO: That's right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. What else is -- do you know of anything else that they got from the house other than the two cars?

MR. DeCARLO: Just the two cars is the only thing they got, and they also trying for the deed to the property that he owned. They wanted him to sign over the deed -- if there was any deed -- but they wanted the property of that particular house to live in.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did -- have you ever been to the Hinman residence?

MR. DeCARLO: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did -- have you ever met, to your knowledge, Gary Hinman?

MR. DeCARLO: No, I haven't.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Mr. Beausoleil tell you, when he had this conversation with you in the bunkhouse at Spahn's Ranch, did he ever describe the inside of the house?

MR. DeCARLO: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did he ever tell you the story that he was going to tell if he ever got caught?

MR. DeCARLO: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: I can't think of anything else. Go ahead, Charlie.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Now the second time that Bobby returned to the house, he described to you what the house looked like and smelt like; is that right?

MR. DeCARLO: He described what the house smelt like, not what it looked like.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: And did he describe what Gary looked like?

MR. DeCARLO: He described that he stunk and that he could hear the maggots eating away at his body, is exactly what he described.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: How many days later did Bobby return to the house?

MR. DeCARLO: Approximately, four or five days.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: This would have been four or five days after --

MR. DeCARLO: After he was dead.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: All right. Now did you ever see Bobby or Sadie or Mary wearing a chain about their neck?

MR. DeCARLO: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: None of them wore medallions that you know of?

MR. DeCARLO: No. They wore no kind of jewelry whatsoever. That was -- that was a no, no up there.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you notice anything about, uh, Bobby when he came back to the ranch; did you see any marks on his body?

MR. DeCARLO: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: None at all?

MR. DeCARLO: They brought back a set of bagpipes. That was supposed to be -- the way I heard it, supposed to belong to Gary. It was a set of bagpipes and it belonged -- and I tried to blow it up, put air into it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did they do with the bagpipes?

MR. DeCARLO: I don't know. The last time I saw the bagpipes, they were sittin' in the kitchen, on the shelf there, at, at the ranch. That's the last time I saw 'em, and that's the last time I ever heard of 'em. They're supposedly been the bagpipes from that house. Whether he played the bagpipes or not, I don't know.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did they -- you didn't hear anything about them taking any of his credit cards or blank checks, or anything like that?

MR. DeCARLO: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did Bobby tell you how he got in the house the second time he returned?

MR. DeCARLO: They -- he just walked in.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: The door was unlocked?

MR. DeCARLO: The door was unlocked, right; just walked in the front door.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Now all this conversation that you're -- that you have related to, uh, us now, this conversation was between you and Bobby Beausoleil?

MR. DeCARLO: Right.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: And that there may have been either people walking back and forth in the house?

MR. DeCARLO: Right. The house I'm talkin' about, the bunkhouse, the place I showed you today.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Would you describe there two vehicles for us?

MR. DeCARLO: One was a white Toyota, with a radiator on it that didn't belong on there. It was a radiator off another car put on there. But what car it was, I, I don't know. The Volkswagen bus was either a red and white or a brown and white. It was a bright something -- it was two-tone. The inside of the Volkswagen bus was fixed up like a camper, in fact, where it had a place to sleep in. It also had a set up there we could run a stereo tape. It had speakers in there, and it had curtains on the window.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Anything unusual about the out exterior of the vehicle?

MR. DeCARLO: No. First, I don't know what you mean by that.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay.

Anything else?

DEPUTY GUENTHER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay. We'll conclude this then at, uh, 5:47. Thank you very much, Mr. Tolmach.