Monday, December 8, 1969
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THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Mr. DeCarlo.
called as a witness before the Grand Jury, was sworn and testified as follows:
THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.
THE WITNESS: Danny DeCarlo.
THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE FOREMAN: Would you please be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR. STOVITZ:
Q: Mr. DeCarlo, would you kindly state your name again for the record.
A: Danny DeCarlo.
Q: Mr. DeCarlo, we anticipate questioning you concerning certain incidents that occurred at the Spahn Movie Ranch between August the 8, 1969, and August the 16th, 1969, between those dates.
You have been informed that if you feel in any way that any of your answers may incriminate you that you have a right under the Fifth Amendment and under the California Constitution not to answer anything that may incriminate you.
You have been informed of that; is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Are you testifying freely and voluntarily before this Grand Jury?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: And you realize, sir, that you are under oath?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: I'd like to direct your attention to the photograph which is Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2 and ask you if you know the man depicted in that photograph.
A: Yes, that is Charlie.
Q: Charlie what?
A: Charles Manson.
Q: And when did you first make Mr. Manson's acquaintance, approximately?
A: In March of ‘69.
Q: And in what connection did you meet him; sir?
A: Well, he had a motorcycle, a three-wheeler that had a blown engine on it and he wanted me to fix it. He wanted me to rebuild the engine.
Q: Are you pretty good at rebuilding engines on motorcycles?
A: I am. On Harleys, I am an expert.
Q: What about automobiles?
Q: Now, then, did you go anywhere with Mr. Manson or did you do the work for him, or what?
A: Yes, I fixed the bike.
Q: Where did you fix it?
A: I fixed it there at the ranch.
Q: Spahn Ranch?
A: Spahn Ranch; right.
Q: Then did you continue to stay at the ranch, or did you come and go, or what?
A: I spent seventy-five percent of my time at the ranch.
Q: Now, on or about August the 16th, 1969, were you arrested with other people at the Spahn Ranch by the Deputy Sheriffs?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: And were you subsequently released?
A: Yes, they only held me for 72 hours and let me go.
Q: As a result of that arrest are there any charges pending against you in the County of Los Angeles?
Q: Or in the State of California?
Q: Now, for the ten days prior to that arrest -- that arrest took place on August 16, 1969, you say, from August the 6th up to August the 16th, the time you were arrested, were you living at any one particular place continuously?
A: I was at the ranch.
Q: That is Spahn Ranch?
A: That is Spahn Ranch; right.
Q: And were you living in any particular location at that ranch?
A: My house was the bunkhouse.
Q: And did you have any particular reason for staying there at that ranch? Were you being employed there? What was your occupation there?
A: Lots of pretty girls up there.
Q: Were you interested in a particular girl you saw there?
Q: I'm going to show you some girls.
I will show you Exhibit 1, Grand Jury Exhibit 1.
Do you know the girl depicted in that photograph?
Q: Sadie Glutz?
Q: Were you interested in Sadie Glutz?
A: No, we didn't get along too good.
Q: I show you Exhibit 16.
Do you know the girl depicted in that photograph?
Q: Leslie Sankston?
Q: Were you interested in that girl depicted in that photograph?
A: No, she was interested in me some but I wouldn't -- she chased me around a lot.
Q: That wasn't the reason for your staying at the ranch because of Leslie?
A: Not them two, no.
Q: I show you a photograph, Grand Jury Exhibit 3. Do you know the girl depicted in that picture?
Q: Patricia Krenwinkel? Is that another name that she used or --
A: I just knew her as Katie.
Q: Just Katie?
A: Nobody used their right names.
Q: And this girl shown in Exhibit 3 that you call Katie, was she the reason that you were staying at the ranch?
A: Oh, no, not her.
Q: Did you get along with Katie?
A: We talked, that is about it, but I never did nothing. You know, I never snatched her up or anything.
Q: I show you a girl depicted in Exhibit 5.
Do you know who that girl is?
A: That's Linda.
Q: Linda Kasabian?
Q: And was she the reason you were staying at the ranch?
A: No, but I know we got together once.
Q: And this person depicted in this photograph, is that a man or a woman?
A: That is Clem.
Q: I take it it is a man, then?
Q: And that wasn't the reason you stayed at the ranch?
Q: Do you know what Clem's last name was or what other nickname he may have had?
A: I only knew his first name, that is Steve.
This name here, Grant, that is the name he used when we went to County Jail. That was the name he used.
Q: You are speaking about the name Grant that appears on this photograph, that was the name that the fellow depicted in Exhibit No. 15 used at the Sheriff's Office when you were arrested on August the 16th?
A: On the 16th, right.
Q: I show you Exhibit 4. Is this a photograph of anyone you know?
A: Yes, that is Tex.
Q: Did he use any particular name when he was arrested on August the 16th?
A: He wasn't arrested. He wasn't at the ranch. He was out in Death Valley, then.
Q: Do you know what Tex's real name is?
A: All I knew was his first name Charlie. I got that from a truck he had. It was a ‘36 Dodge. I was looking through the glove compartment and I looked on the sales slip and it was Charles Montgomery.
Q: All right, now, showing you all of the pictures of the girls, there was none that you were interested in?
A: No, none of those.
Q: And did you tell us, also, of a child that you are the father of that was staying there at the ranch from time to time?
A: I brought my little boy up there approximately three days before because my wife had him but she wasn't -- she wasn't taking care of him so I went to Venice and brought my boy back up here.
Q: This was 3 days before August the 16th?
Q: How old is your son?
A: A year and a half.
Q: And was he taken into custody at that time with you on August the 16th?
A: Yes, he was.
Q: And then did you later receive the return of his custody?
A: Well, the welfare people was -- they gave him to my mother, see but then that went on for about a week and then my mother called them and she told them to come and get him.
Q: So the welfare people have him?
A: Yes, they took him -- they took him again.
Q: And you know that your testimony here before this Grand Jury has got nothing to do with whether or not your child will or will not be returned to you; do you understand that?
A: Well, I'm just saying what the welfare people did.
Q: The welfare people had put the child with your mother and that was satisfactory with you?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Now, sir, going back, again, to the Spahn Ranch, you say that you were employed there; is that correct?
A: No, I wasn't getting no money.
Q: When you fixed this three-wheeler motorcycle for Mr. Manson did he pay you any money?
A: Not in money.
Q: And did you do any other work for Mr. Manson or any other people there at the ranch?
A: Well, he was on a motorcycle thing whereas he wanted to do this thing with motorcycles but he decided on dune buggies.
Q: That is Mr. Manson?
A: Right. So me being an expert motorcycle mechanic and plus I belong to a club, a powerful club that he knew and he wanted my club to come up there but they didn't want nothing to do with him.
His idea, what he wanted to do with my club was to scare the public away, you know, and they didn't want nothing to do with him.
Q: There is a club known as the Hell's Angels, is that your club?
Q: And is your motorcycle club the kind that goes into a town and scares everybody, the type you see in the movies?
A: No, that only happens in the movies.
Q: Now, let's go back to August 16th.
You said that for that ten-day period prior to that you were living there at the bunkhouse?
Q: And once in a while I guess you'd, get together with the girl that you were sweet on; is that right?
Q: And she is not any of these girls?
Q: Would you want to give us the name that she was using there at the ranch so we can call her some name?
Q: Now, Mr. Manson, where was he living?
A: He didn't live in no particular place. There were two little shacks that he mostly stayed at but nobody had one particular place to stay except for me because I do a lot of drinking, you know, I sit and drink and play the radio and Charlie didn't like nobody to drink and I also got the girls to cash in Coke bottles, also, to go buy beer and he didn't like that so he kept away from me.
Q: Did you know where Mr. Charles Watson lived during that week?
A: He stayed at the ranch but what part of the ranch I don't know; mostly the saloon.
Q: Was there a saloon out at the ranch?
A: Yeah, the saloon, because him and Marie -- him and Marie spent a lot of time together.
Q: Marie's last name is what?
A: I know her as Marie Brunner.
Q: And was she arrested on August 16th at the time the Sheriffs got there?
A: No, she was in jail.
Q: When, to your knowledge, was she taken into custody? Do you know?
A: I think it was a couple of days after Gary got it, after Hinman got it.
Q: Hinman got it sometime in the middle of July?
A: Yeah, it was right after that.
Q: Now, when was it, to your knowledge, that means to your own thinking, that you first heard about five people getting killed at one time?
A: On the 15th when my club come there.
Q: From what source did you learn that?
A: Well, I heard it from Sadie who was talking to another girl in another room.
Q: What girl was Sadie talking to?
A: A girl, I don't know.
Q: And on August the 15th, then, you -- in other words, you had not heard it on the radio or seen it on television or read it in the newspaper that five people were killed on August the 9th, 1969?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: On August the 15th your club came up?
A: That night.
Q: Was this the night just before you were arrested?
A: Just a few hours.
Q: And was there a happening that occurred at that time when your club came up there? I mean, was it something big or did they just come up?
A: They came up to get me because they wanted me back in Venice with my brothers where I belonged.
Q: When you speak about "brothers," are you speaking about blood brothers or club brothers?
A: My club brothers, and they wanted to -- they came up there to visit and Charlie would sit down there and run this thing down to them about tearing society apart, things like that, and they thought he was nuts and figured they was brainwashing me and they came up there to get me and they were going to take him and wad him up in a rubber ball.
Q: And somehow or other that didn't happen?
A: No, because I stopped it because I knew why they were up there. I knew something was wrong when they didn't talk to me.
Q: To your knowledge, did you know whether or not prior -- that means before -- August the 15th, whether or not Charlie Manson had any guns?
A: Oh, yeah.
Q: When was it that you first became aware that Mr. Manson had guns?
A: The latter part of June.
Q: Of 1969?
Q: Now, do you have any familiarity with guns?
A: Yeah, I am almost an expert on them.
Q: You are almost as good at guns as you are at fixing motorcycles?
Q: Were you in the service?
A: Yes, I was in the Coast Guard for four years.
Q: When you were in the Coast Guard did you have any particular specialty?
A: Weapons expert.
Q: And when you were out there at the ranch, you say, in June of 1969, you saw Charles Manson in possession of certain types of guns; is that right?
A: Well, all the guns were kept in the bunkhouse where I stayed at.
Q: What kind of guns were they?
A: We had a .45 auto, we had a 9 mm. Radon, we had a 1903 Springfield, we had an M-1 carbine with an M-2 stock on it. There was a 12-gauge police riot gun, a .22 rifle, and a machinegun.
Q: Now, did you ever see anything of a .22 caliber Buntline revolver?
Q: Where was that kept?
A: That was kept with me in the bunkhouse.
Q: And when did you first see this .22 caliber Buntline revolver?
A: In June.
Q: And who, if anyone, showed it to you or how did you get hold of it?
A: He traded a gun for a truck, the truck that I got parked outside, and so Charlie gave this truck to another guy and -- in trade for this pistol.
See, this is something I didn't know about, he just did it behind my back, and the next day I got up, "Where is my truck at?"
"Oh, well, I took it. He gave me this in return for it.”
And that was the .22 Buntline pistol.
Q: When you speak about Charlie, are you speaking about Manson?
Q: So all the time that you have referred to Charlie we know that you are referring to Manson?
A: There is only one Charlie, that is Charlie Manson, and Tex was -- never in the six months there have I ever referred to him as Charlie.
Q: Now, you say this Buntline .22 caliber revolver was in your possession. How would you keep it, on your person, or put it in a safe?
A: It set up on top -- the gun -- the pistol, it sat on a little bench, it just sat there, or there was a stove there that it was put in with the stove, inside the stove, but, I mean, nobody claimed ownership to anything. No one particular pistol belonged to anybody, but as far as Charlie went, Charlie -- he didn't -- this was the only pistol he ever wanted to secure.
Q: Which one?
A: The .22 Buntline.
Q: Have you ever seen Charles Manson use that .22 caliber Buntline?
A: I have seen him shoot it.
Q: When he shot it was it at any particular thing, target practice or what?
A: Just target practice.
Q: Where was that target practice?
A: At the ranch and when George would leave at 5:00 o'clock, well, there was a barrel there that sat out on the street, a trash barrel, and he would go in the bunkhouse and step out from the bunkhouse and the barrel was directly there ahead of us, maybe 50 yards, and that was the target.
Q: Who is this George that you referred to?
A: George, the old man that owns the ranch.
Q: Would this Mr. Spahn actually live on the ranch or would he come and go?
A: No, he had his house right there. He lived there constantly.
Q: Now, when was the last time, to your knowledge, that you saw this .22 caliber Buntline revolver before August the 16th, 1969?
A: About a week, a week and a half.
Q: Now, on the day that the arrest was made on August the 16th, did the Sheriff's Office also confiscate -- that means take hold of -- a lot of guns?
Q: Was that .22 caliber revolver there at that time?
Q: Now, you said that you had seen it for the last time about a week to a week and a half before; is that right?
Q: In whose possession was it at that time?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Was it in the bunkhouse?
A: Yes, it was always kept in the bunkhouse.
Q: Now, when before that time that you last saw it in the bunkhouse had you last seen it in Charlie Manson’s possession?
A: Maybe two weeks before the 16th.
Q: Did you ever see anyone else, Tex or Clem or any of the girls ever use that .22 caliber Buntline revolver?
A: Not the girls but Tex and Clem shot the pistol before.
Q: Where would you get the ammunition for that?
A: You can buy ammo anywhere.
Q: What kind of ammo would it take?
A: .22 long.
Q: And would automatic ammunition fit into this revolver?
A: There is no difference between the .22 automatic ammunition and the .22 revolver, they are all the same.
Q: On or about August the 17th, 1969, which is about two weeks ago, did the Los Angeles Police Department question you about this particular revolver?
A: Could you say that date again?
Q: On or about August -- I'm sorry, November the 17th, 1969, did the Los Angeles Police Department question you about this particular revolver?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did you draw a picture of a revolver for them at that time?
A: Yes, I did.
MR. STOVITZ: Mr. Foreman, I have a pencil drawing.
May the pencil drawing be marked Exhibit 40 for -- Grand Jury Exhibit 40?
THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.
Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 40.
Is that the illustration that you made for the police at that time?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: And at the time that you were making this illustration, Exhibit 40, did you try to recapture at that time what the revolver had looked like to you?
A: Yes, to the best of my knowledge.
Q: All right, now, this is dated November the 17th, and August is the eighth month, so there was approximately three or three and a half months since you had last seen the revolver at the time you drew this photograph; is that right?
Q: Now, this "8" that you have written in here, what does that “8" indicate?
A: The barrel length.
Q: And the other drawing on that, that was all made by you; is that correct?
A: Yeah, I drew the picture.
Q: And how many shots did this gun hold? How many bullets did it hold?
A: It held nine rounds.
Q: Now, I will show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 38.
A: That is it.
Q: Have you ever seen this particular photograph before today?
A: Before today?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: And when you looked at this photograph were you looking at this photograph at the time that you were drawing this illustration, Exhibit 40?
A: No, I made this approximately two weeks before I ever saw that.
Q: By "that," you mean Exhibit 38?
A: This picture here, right.
Q: Now that you see Exhibit 38 can you tell us whether or not Exhibit 38 is a replica -- that means the same type gun as the one you have been describing?
A: Yes, it is. I know weapons.
Q: You know them and have you fired that particular gun shown in Exhibit 38?
Q: Now, with relation to the incident that you say that you first learned of five people getting killed, you say that you heard Sadie talking to some girl in the bunkhouse about it.
Have you ever heard any of the fellows talking about that incident either before that time or after that time?
A: Yeah, Clem.
Q: All right, and that is the man shown in Exhibit No. 15.
Who was Clem talking to?
A: He was talking to me.
Q: And was this before the 15th of August or after the 15th of August?
A: This is approximately the following day or either two days after the 9th.
Q: How do you know it was two days after the 9th?
A: Because I remember the night they went out on that, whereas they were dressed in black, Sadie and Linda were dressed in black.
Q: You say you remember the night that they went out. Now, that night had no particular significance to you; right?
Q: Had you ever seen Sadie and Linda go out dressed in black before that night?
A: Not before or not since
Q: And they went out in what kind of car; if you know?
A: I didn’t see them leave in the car, I saw them standing in front of the Rock City Cafe and she was tucking her black capris inside her boots.
Q: Who is “she”?
A: She is Sadie.
Q: That is Sadie Glutz?
A: Sadie Glutz.
Q: This is the one shown in this picture?
A: Yes, this one right here.
Q: Would you give us the number?
A: 5758 --
Q: No, that little white ticket.
A: Exhibit 1.
Q: So Sadie was tucking her tights into her boots; is that right?
Q: And who was Sadie with at that time?
A: She was with Linda.
Q: Will you please show us Linda.
A: Yeah, this broad right here.
Q: Exhibit No. 5, and may the record reflect, Mr. Foreman, that all five rather -- four photographs of these girls are before the witness and they are not in any particular order, that the witness is picking them out at his random selection.
All right, now, how was Linda dressed?
A: She was just in black, the same as Sadie.
Q: Were either Linda or Sadie carrying any particular weapons at that time?
A: Not that I seen.
Q: Did you overhear any particular conversation at that time?
A: Well, as far as conversation, the first conversation I ever heard was from Clem and they came back -- this was approximately the next day -- now, I can't -- I saw no calendar, no clock, so I can't give you exact dates but I says, "What did you do last night?"
And he kind of looked at me and smiled but then he looked over my shoulder and Charlie was standing behind me.
Q: Charlie Manson?
A: Manson, yeah, and so he kind of looked at Charlie and Charlie looked at Clem just as if to say -- not to say nothing, and so Charlie more or less said, "Well, we took care of business," something along that line.
So Charlie turned around and walked away from me, that is, away from my back, see, and then I turned to Clem and Clem looked at me and turned around and walked away and said, “We got five piggies," and that was what was said. That was the first time I heard "five piggies."
Okay, I just let it go at that because I never thought nothing of it.
On the night of the 15th when the club come up to get me, well, me and one of my brothers was outside on the boardwalk out front there and everything was pretty well commotion, they took a gun off Clem and was going to tear the whole place apart, and beat all of them people to pieces and Sadie said, "We can take care of the Straights like we took care of them five piggies."
They were mad because we --
Q: By "they," you mean the girls at the ranch were mad?
A: Everybody up at the ranch there was mad.
Q: Including the motorcycle group?
A: They were up there to wad Charlie into a little ball.
Q: So then you said Sadie said something about what, again?
A: She said, "We can take care of them Straights just like they took care of them five piggies."
Q: Straight Satans is the name of your club?
Q: What happened next?
A: That was all the conversation that went that night. It was pretty much in turmoil. I wanted to hurry up and get the people out. I said, "Let's go down and have a beer." So I made everybody get in all their cars and get on their bikes again and shoot down there into the Valley so I could get them away from the ranch. I didn’t want them to start no trouble up there.
Q: About 6:00 o'clock the next morning the Sheriffs raided the place and arrested everybody there; right, except George Spahn?
Q: And then you were kept in custody with I of the fellows like Tex -- I'm sorry, you say Tex was not at the ranch?
A: Tex was out in the desert. Tex left the night before.
Q: He left the night before your brothers came up?
A: Approximately the night or the night before that, a couple nights before that.
Q: What about Clem, was Clem up there at the time?
A: No, he got busted with me.
Q: And was Mr. Manson arrested with you on August 16th?
A: Yeah, he was handcuffed right to him.
Q: Then you were taken to the Sheriff's Department and you were let loose, you say, 72 hours later; is that right?
A: Yeah, they took us to Malibu and then they took us to County.
Q: In the time that you were in custody did you ever hear Clem at any time discuss this five piggy incident again?
A: No, sir.
Q: After you got out after this 72 hours did you go anywhere with the Manson group?
A: Well, the day -- the night I got out I went back to the ranch.
Q: Spahn Ranch?
A: Spahn Ranch.
About four or five days after that then I went up to Death Valley. I drove the truck up there.
Q: When you went back to the Spahn Ranch after you were released from the Sheriff's Department was Mr. Watson there at the ranch?
A: No, he was there in Death Valley. He never came down from there.
Q: Were any of the girls there at the ranch?
A: No, because I was the first one to get out.
Q: And then you stated that you stayed at the ranch for about four or five days; is that correct?
Q: And then did you go with anyone up to Death Valley?
A: I went with -- the last thing I said about Tex being up in Death Valley all that time, no, he did come down.
Q: Do you remember when it was that he came down
A: No, but it was after we all got out of jail, so it would have been within four days because me, Bruce and Tex drove the truck up there.
Q: Who was in this truck with you?
A: Just us three.
Q: Did Mr. Manson go up to Death Valley?
A: Yeah, he went in a car.
Q: Do you remember who went with him?
A: Well, all the young girls did. All the younger ones.
Q: And when you went up to Death Valley did you have a particular place that you were going to meet at?
A: At the -- well, see, the Barker Ranch, we was going to stay up at the Barker Ranch but Paul was up there, word came down that Paul Crocket (phonetic) was living on the Barker Ranch now and, you know, Charlie couldn't live there.
Well, one of the girls, Katie Meyer (phonetic) her grandmother owned the Meyer Ranch about a quarter of a mile down the road, down the little wash there, and when we first got to Death Valley we went over there to the Meyer's Ranch and stayed there.
Q: How long did you continue staying up there at Death Valley?
A: Well, I was there for about four days.
Q: And did you ever return to live at the Spahn Ranch again?
A: No, when I left Death Valley that was it.
Q: I'd like to show you a photograph, sir, Grand Jury Exhibit 12. Do you know who this girl is that is depicted in this photograph?
A: I know who she is now.
Q: Do you know who she is now?
A: Now I know.
Q: Who is she?
A: She is called -- what name do you have? Sharon Tate; isn't it?
Q: All right, Sharon Tate.
Did you ever see Sharon Tate at the Spahn Ranch?
Q: You were there continuously for six months before August the 15th, 1969?
Q: She had never been up at the ranch?
A: I would have been the first one to know about it
Q: All right, now, with relation to what went on when you went to Independence, did you ever get a chance to talk to Charlie Watson, that is, Tex, about anything relating to these five piggies?
A: Not up in Death Valley, it was back down there at Spahn's Ranch, approximately maybe a day or two days after the 9th because he was limping, see, and they used to have karate classes up there and the thing was to kick, you know, with your foot, so he was limping.
I said, "What happened to your foot?"
And he says, "Me and this guy got into it."
And I said, "You hurt your foot?"
He says, "Yeah."
I says, "Well, what did you do to him?"
He says, "I took his money."
I said, "How much did you get?"
He said, "Seventy-five dollars"
And I just -- it sounded like I figured it was just maybe a bar fight, those are pretty common.
Q: But he never mentioned anything to you about five piggies or anything?
A: No, never, because he was pretty -- he was really quiet. He never said anything except when Charlie wasn't there. Well, then, he jumped in -- he started -- he jumped up there where the king's throne was. He took over until Charlie got back and then he retreated back like a little mouse, just like the rest of them did.
Q: Going back, again, to what you fix in your mind as, approximately August the 9th, 1969, when you say that you saw Susan at -- or, Sadie and Linda Kasabian dressed in black, did you hear anyone say anything as to where they were going to go or what they were going to do?
A: Just on a caper.
Q: Just on a caper.
About what time of night was it that you recall seeing them?
A: Around 9:00 o’clock.
Q: Bearing in mind that this is August, now, was it still daylight or had it turned dark?
A: No, it got dark late.
Q: When was the next time that you saw these people?
A: That I can't exactly remember. Maybe a couple of days after that, maybe the next day, I don't know.
Q: And did you ever remember seeing Patricia Krenwinkel, the girl that you call Katie, on that occasion or on an occasion a day after or on an occasion a day before?
A: No, I didn’t.
MR. STOVITZ: This is Mr. Bugliosi. He will be asking you questions from now on.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q: Looking at this girl, again, Sharon Tate, Grand Jury Exhibit 12 for identification, you never saw her at the Spahn Ranch?
A: No, nothing there was -- no girls up there were that good looking.
Q: Do you know a man by the name of Armstrong?
Q: Do you know his first name?
Q: Is he presently the foreman out at Spahn Ranch?
A: From what the papers say he is.
Q: Have you seen Mr. Armstrong over television?
A: I sure did.
Q: Did you hear him say anthing?
A: I sure did.
Q: About Sharon Tate being at the ranch frequently?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: During the summer of 1969 how many times did you see Armstrong out at the Spahn Ranch?
A: In the six months I was there I saw him three times.
Q: What were the six months you were out there?
A: March till the beginning of September.
Q: Of ‘69?
A: Of ‘69.
Q: Armstrong was not the foreman during that period?
A: No, he was not, he was nothing.
Q: Did Armstrong live at the ranch during that period?
Q: You saw him three times out there?
A: Yes, three times.
Q: Did he stay overnight?
A: No, he only stayed there, at the most, ten minutes at the most.
Q: During that six-month period, this man Armstrong who has been saying over television that Sharon Tate was out there several times, you say Armstrong was only seen at the ranch on three occasions and then only for a short period of ten minutes or so; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is definitely correct.
Q: I direct your attention to Grand Jury Exhibit No. 11 for identification, Mr. DeCarlo, and I point to the girl in the photograph. There is a man and a woman.
I am referring to the woman that has previously been identified as one Abigail Folger. Did you ever see her out at the ranch?
Q: Directing your attention to Grand Jury Exhibit No. 15 for identification, the bottom left-hand corner, it says “Mollan, M-o-l-l-a-n, Grant.”
This is the individual you refer to as Clem?
The only time he used that name there was when we got popped on the 16th.
Q: You did hear Clem use the name Grant Mollan on August the 16th?
A: He had it on his County Jail arm band.
Q: And you also had know Clem as Steve; is that correct?
A: Steve, this is his real name.
Q: Looking, again, at this Longhorn Buntline revolver, Grand Jury Exhibit 39 for identification, the Buntline revolver that you saw Charlie Manson walk around with, was it identical to this one or did it differ in any respect?
A: I would say it is identical.
It’s a High Standard; isn’t it?
Q: Well, it is listed here as a Longhorn, nine-shot .22 caliber revolver.
What I want to know is, the revolver that is shown in this photograph is it the same identical type of revolver that you saw Charlie Manson walking around with?
Q: Is there any doubt in your mind about that?
A: None whatsoever.
Q: Directing your attention, again, to this drawing that you made for the Los Angeles Police Department, Grand Jury Exhibit No. 40 for identification, you made it on November 17th.
I direct your attention to what appears to be your effort to draw in some springs beneath the barrel.
Is that what you were attempting to draw there?
A: Yeah, if you turn the pistol the other way, like right here, when the round is fired it -- this is called a side gate, it comes open, the plunger comes back, a round goes through and takes the empty brass and ejects it. On this thing here, this is what I was doing. When you want to eject the empty brass you pull this back.
Q: You are convincing me of the fact that you are an expert but you may be losing some of the Grand Jurors here.
Were you attempting to draw in some springs here beneath the barrel? Are those springs?
A: Yes, it is a spring.
Q: Now, directing your attention to Grand Jury Exhibit. 38 for identification, you notice that there is an extension here beneath the barrel?
A: The spring is inside there, right here.
Q: The spring is inside the extension?
A: On the other side you can see the actuation of the spring in there.
Q: So the spring is visible inside this extension from the other side?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: You can see it without opening up the extension?
A: You can see it, you can just pick the pistol up.
Q: And you can see the spring?
Q: This is what you were attempting to draw in this drawing?
Q: You indicated that an individual gave this Buntline revolver to Charles Manson in return for something else; is that correct?
A: Yeah, he traded my truck for the pistol, gave my truck away.
Q: Do you know the individual that Charlie entered into this transaction with?
Q: What is his name?
A: Bill Vance.
Q: Bill Vance is also known as Cowboy Bill?
A: I never heard him by that name?
Q: How old is Bill Vance?
A: He is the same age as Charlie.
Q: About 35?
Q: Does Bill Vance go by any other name other than Bill Vance?
A: Just Bill Vance.
Q: You don't know him by any other name?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Does Bill run around with Bruce Davis?
A: Yes, he does.
Q: Do you know where Bill Vance is now?
A: I did.
Q: Where is that?
A: He was down in Venice, the 28 Club House.
Q: 28 Club House?
Q: What is the 28 Club House?
A: Well, that is the address. I have never been down there. My brothers were down there snooping around and so they went down there and talked to him and wanted to talk to me pretty dearly.
Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 39 for identification. Does this appear to be a photograph of a rope?
A: Nylon line.
Q: When you say "line," are you speaking synonymously with rope when you say line?
A: Well, line is a thing that I picked up from the service. Everything is line.
Q: It is a navy term?
A: Right, I was in the Coast Guard.
Q: When you say "line," you are not referring to something other than a rope, are you?
A: No, I refer to it as line.
Q: So, you use the term line and rope synonymously; is that correct?
A: Yes, I never use the term rope, everything is line to me.
Q: So when you are thinking of rope you use the word line; is that correct?
Q: Have you ever seen line such as that which is shown in this Grand Jury Exhibit No. 39?
A: At the ranch.
Q: Spahn Ranch?
Q: Have you ever heard of a place named Jack Frost?
Q: Where is that located?
A: It is in Santa Monica.
Q: What type of a store is it?
A: War surplus.
Q: Did you ever go to Jack Frost with Charlie Manson?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: In the summer of ‘69?
Q: What month?
Q: Did Manson buy anything at the store in your presence?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: What did he buy?
A: He bought two walkie-talkies, two field battle phones, Second World War ones where you lay the wire out and you clang it and ring a bell. He bought two of those. He bought five plastic five-gallon gas containers.
Q: Did he buy any rope?
A: Yeah, this is what he bought. He bought that line.
Q: He bought some line?
Q: Was the line that he bought exactly, the same as that which is shown in this photograph, Grand Jury Exhibit No. 39 for identification?
A: That is the line exactly.
Q: The line that he bought, what material was it?
A: It was made out of nylon.
Q: How many strands was it; if you recall?
A: Three strands.
Q: How much did he buy? How much line did he buy in terms of feet, to your knowledge?
A: One hundred and fifty, two hundred feet.
Q: You were present at that time?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: You later saw the line out at the Spahn Ranch; is that correct?
A: Yes, they used it to tow the dune buggies. When the dune buggy was broken they used the line to tow it.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.
THE FOREMAN: Are there any questions any members of the Grand Jury would like to ask the witness?
I would like to give you the following admonition:
You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.
You will understand that a violation of these instructions on your part may be the basis for a charge against you of contempt of court.
This admonition, of course, does not preclude you from discussing your legal rights with any legally-employed attorney, should you feel that your own personal rights are in any way in jeopardy.
You may be excused.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I would like to have him come back later this afternoon to testify on the LaBianca aspect of the case.
Could you excuse him just outside the room but not --
THE FOREMAN: I will excuse you and you will be called back this afternoon.
THE WITNESS: All right, sir.
THE FOREMAN: We will recess now and we will be back at 1:00 o’clock.
(The noon recess was taken.)
MR. STOVITZ: Mr. DeCarlo.
recalled as a witness before the Grand Jury, having been previously duly sworn, resumed the witness stand and testified further as follows:
THE FOREMAN: I would like to remind you that you are still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I realize that.
THE FOREMAN: Will you take a seat.
EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q: Mr. DeCarlo, you are still under oath, you realize that; sir?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Do you recall your testifying earlier this morning that you knew Mr. Manson out at Spahn Ranch; is that correct?
Q: How frequently would you see Mr. Manson?
A: I saw him every day.
Q: To your recollection did Mr. Manson wear any type of a leather thong around his neck out at Spahn Ranch?
A: He wore just a piece of leather.
Q: How thick was the leather?
A: Approximately an eighth of an inch thick.
Q: Would you classify the leather as a leather thong at all?
A: Well, a thong -- I don't know -- thongs, I always thought thongs were sandals that you wear, but the leather you are talking about is the leather -- they made a buckskin out of -- like we make buckskin pants and when it comes time to tie everything together, they use this leather to weave it back and forth in order to hold it together.
Q: And Mr. Manson used to wear this leather around his neck?
A: Yes, he did, one little piece of it.
Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 49 for identification and direct your attention to what appears to be a rope tied around the two hands of the individual shown in the photograph.
Did the rope, or leather, or what have you, that Mr. Manson used to wear around his neck look the same or different from the rope that you see in this photograph here?
A: That is the same.
Q: Is your answer that the rope that you see in this photograph, Grand Jury Exhibit No. 49, is the same type rope that Mr. Manson used to wear around his neck?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: Did you see rope like this in abundance on the Spahn Ranch?
Q: What did they use it for?
A: They made buckskin clothes out of it.
Charlie had a set of buckskins that the girls made for him and it was all pieces of leather that was made and instead of stitching it with thread they stitched it with that leather right there.
Q: So Charlie's Family used this type of rope quite a bit?
A: All the time. Everybody wore buckskins. Everybody wore the leather pants, the girls made them for everybody.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, no further questions.
MR. STOVITZ: Will you admonish this witness, Mr. Bishop, that the admonition you gave before still applies to this last testimony?
THE WITNESS: Oh, I'll keep it down.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, Mr. DeCarlo.