LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY SEPTEMBER 1, 1971
9:35 A.M.
-o0o-
THE COURT: People against Watson.
Let the record show all jurors, all counsel and defendant present.
Mr. Bubrick, you may proceed.
MR. KEITH: Call David Neale.
THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, please.
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truths, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
DAVID LYNN NEALE,
called as a witness for the defendant, testified as follows:
THE CLERK: Thank you. Take the stand and be seated; and would you state and spell your name, please?
THE WITNESS: David Lynn Neale; last name spelled N-e-a-l-e.
THE CLERK: Your middle name, please?
THE WITNESS: L-y-n-n.
THE CLERK: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KEITH:
Q: David, how old are you?
A: 27.
Q: And do you presently live in the Los Angeles County area?
A: Yes, sir, I do.
Q: Would that be in the San Fernando Valley?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you know Charles Watson, the defendant?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: When did you first become acquainted with Mr. Watson?
A: It must have been '65, in college, we were in college together.
Q: Now, what college was that, David?
A: North Texas State University, Denton, Texas.
Q: And where is Denton, say, in relation to Dallas?
A: It is approximately 40 miles north-northwest of Dallas.
Q: And is it what you might say a college town?
A: Yes, sir, it is.
Q: And were you yourself raised in Denton?
A: Yes. That is my hometown.
Q: Were you in the same class as Mr. Watson at North Texas State, or were you ahead of him?
A: I was a year ahead in school.
Q: Were you in the same fraternity?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: And what was that?
A: Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity.
Q: Were you a particularly close friend of Charles at North Texas State?
A: Not at that particular time, no, sir, I wasn't.
Q: You just knew him as another fraternity brother?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: At some time did you move to California?
A: I moved in '66.
Q: Did you complete your education?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: Before you moved?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: How many years at North Texas State did you complete?
A: I attended a year and a half at North Texas. I was a senior when I moved to California.
Q: Again, approximately what was the date when you moved to California? Not the exact date but the year and the month, to the best of your recollection?
A: As best as I can recall, I would say the spring semester of '66.
Q: Sometime after your moving hers to California, did you return to Denton, not for any particular length of time necessarily, but once you got out here did you remain or did you return from time to time to Denton, your hometown?
A: No, sir. I remained in California.
Q: Sometime after your coming out here did you have occasion to see Mr. Watson?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: And when was that for the first time?
A: I don't recall the particular date. I was living with my brother in Los Angeles and Charles was working for an airline in Dallas.
Q: You knew that of your own knowledge, did you?'
A: I didn't know that until he came out one weekend.
Q: Did Charles tell you that he was working for Braniff Airlines?
A: Yes, sir, he did.
Q: And when was that, approximately, when you saw him for the first time here in California?
A: I believe that was the fall of '67. I am not sure about the dates, though.
Q: At some time after that, Charles moved out to California and lived here more or less permanently, did he not?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: But before his moving here to live permanently did you see him from time to time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And on how many occasions would you as you saw him in California before he picked up and moved here and by "he," I am referring to Charles, of course.
A: Well, over a period of two months, I would say eight times or so.
Q: During that two-month period, to your knowledge, was Charles working for Braniff Airlines?
A: Yes, sir, he was.
Q: And would he come out here on trips from Texas, if you know, as an employee of Braniff?
A: He was employed at the time. He was coming out on weekends on his own time.
Q: Now, when was it, approximately, when Charles moved out here to Southern California to stay?
A: I'm not real sure on the dates.
Q: Do you have an approximate month?
A: '67 -- I want to say June of '67; I'm not sure on the dates, though.
Q: After Charles came here did he live with you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And where were you living at that time?
A: I was living in Hollywood.
Q: And were you living with your brother at that time?
A: Yes, sir, I was.
Q: And what is his name?
A: His name is Jay Scott.
Q: Is that a stage name?
A: Yes, sir, it is; he's an actor.
Q: And is your brother older or younger than you are?
A: He is older.
Q: How old is he?
A: He's 31, I believe.
Q: Now, after Charles started to live with you and your brother in Hollywood, to your knowledge, did he enroll in any school?
A: Yes, sir; he enrolled at Cal State.
Q: Is that Cal State Los Angeles, if you know?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And to your knowledge did Charles attend Cal State for any period of time?
A: Yes, sir, he did. I don't recall the time he was in school, though.
Q: Can you tell us whether it was a relatively short period of time?
A: It was less than a semester; I know he didn't complete the semester.
Q: And during the time Charles was going to Cal State did he continue to live with you and your older brother?
A: Well, Charles and I moved to an apartment together.
Q: And where did you move?
A: We moved to the Echo Park district.
Q: And I gather that your brother didn't go along, with you and Charles.
A: No, sir, he didn't.
Q: After Charles dropped out of Cal State did he go into, to your knowledge, some kind of business?
A: Yes, sir. In fact, he was hired by a wig company in Beverly Hills while he was attending school.
Q: Did you also work for this wig company?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you --
A: Sometime later I was employed.
Q: Do you remember the name of the wig company?
A: Continental Wig Company.
Q: And do you know what Charles' function or duties was with the wig company?
A: Yes, sir. He was a salesman for the company.
Q: Now, how long, approximately, David, did you and Charles live in the Echo Park area?
A: Approximately three months; three to four months.
Q: And then did you and he move to another apartment or house?
A: Yes, sir, we did.
Q: And where did you go?
A: We moved to Laurel Canyon, which is in Hollywood.
Q: And did you and he again live together?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And at this time when you moved to Laurel Canyon was Charles still working as a wig salesman?
A: Yes, sir; and at this time I was employed, also.
Q: In the same wig company, Continental?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now, at some time during this general period -- incidentally, can you fix a time or times when you recall Charles was employed by the wig company -- and you were, too, for that matter?
A: The dates?
Q: Not exact dates -- of course, if you can give us exact dates, fine; if you can't, your best recollection.
A: Well, it would have been spring of '67, fall of '68.
Q: You say spring of '67, or do you mean '68?
A: I'm not sure on the dates.
Q: Charles came out here to live with you in the summer or fall of '67; isn't that right?
A: Fall of -- it would have been '68, the spring of '68.
Q: And do you recall whether or not, David, Charles was in an accident of some kind during that period?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did he injure himself?
A: Yes. He injured his knee. I was in the accident with him.
Q: When was the accident, approximately?
A: Well, it would have been approximately two to three months after we had moved to Laurel Canyon. I am not sure on the date again.
Q: And was Charles laid up for a time?
A: Yes, he was. In fact he underwent surgery at the time.
Q: And during that period of time I gather he wasn't able to work as a wig salesman.
A: He did on occasion go to the shop and do some work.
Q: Approximately how long would you say Charles worked in the wig business for Continental Wigs as a salesmen?
A: Well, he was employed -- Phil Kern was the gentleman that employed him.
Q: Would you spell the last name for the record?
A: K-e-r-n, I believe. I am not sure how to spell it. And he had Continental Wigs. Then he had another wig shop which was on La Cienega, I believe. In total Charles probably worked a year.
Q: Did you and he at one time open up your own wig shop with another partner?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: And when was this?
A: I'm not really sure on the date.
Q: Would it have been 1968?
A: I think it was the latter part of '68.
Q: You moved from Echo Park to Laurel Canyon; right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And how long did you and Charles live in the Laurel Canyon area?
A: I believe about seven months.
Q: Then did you move some place else?
A: Yes. We moved from there to Malibu.
Q: Did you --
A: Actually it is this side of Malibu.
Q: Did you rent a place there in Malibu?
A: Yes.
Q: And again were you and he living together?
A: Yes, we. were.
Q: And when you were living in Malibu was Charles still in the wig business to your knowledge?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: At some time while you were living with him in Malibu, did you meet a man named Dennis Wilson?
A: My first encounter with Dennis Wilson -- Charles had come home one afternoon and was telling me about going to Dennis' and sometime later I. went up to meet Dennis.
Q: And where were you living at this time when Charles told you he had met Dennis. Wilson, do you remember?
A: Well, we were living in Malibu. I keep saying Malibu. It is actually this side of Topanga Canyon, on the beach.
Q: You did have occasion then to meet Dennis Wilson?
A: Yes.
Q: And did he have a house some place where you met him?
A: Yes. He had a home on Sunset.
Q: Was this in Pacific Palisades?
A: Yes, I believe it was.
Q: Did you also meet a man by the name of Charles Manson?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: And where did you meet him for the first time?
A: I met him in Malibu at the house.
THE COURT: Your house?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q BY MR. KEITH: Your house?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did he come to your place in Malibu once or more than once?
A: More than once. Only once while I was there.
Q: What you are telling us is that you heard of other occasions he may have come there?
A: Well, I had come to the house -- we had leased the house, or were leasing the house for a period of time. We had planned to lease it for a month, sublease it, and I had been staying with some friends and I came back to the house and Charles Manson had been there and he left four or five teenage girls there to take care of the house and they wouldn't let me in the house.
Q: The teenage girls?
A: Right; they had. the doors locked.
Q: Did you ultimately gain entrance?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And would this be sometime in the summer or late summer of 1968, when you couldn't get in your house because the girls were there?
A: I think it must have been somewhere in there.
Q: To your knowledge, did Charles begin to live at Dennis Wilson's house?
A: He was living at Dennis' for a time, yes.
Q: And did you ever meet a man by the name of Dean Moorehouse?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: Where did you meet him?
A: I met him at Dennis'.
Q: Were you a frequent visitor at Dennis' during this period?
A: No, I wasn't. In fact, I had only gone to Dennis' on two or three different occasions.
Q: Did you ever see Manson at Dennis Wilson's?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Did you see -- I think you did tell us you saw Dean Moorhouse at Dennis'?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And to your knowledge, did Charles become friendly or close with Dean Moorehouse?
A: Yes.
In fact, he almost became like a father to him.
Q: You mean Dean became like a father to Charles?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you ever have any philosophical discussions with Moorehouse in the presence of Mr. Watson?
A: Yes, sir, on occasion.
Q: Was this at Dennis Wilson's place?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And do you remember the general subject matters that were discussed?
A: Well, we discussed LSD, the meaning of life, fulfillment; his basic philosophy was a feeling of oneness, having everyone as brothers and sisters, a Utopia.
Q: You were talking about Dean Moorehouse's basic philosophy?
A: Yes, air.
Q: And was Charles there on this occasion, or occasions?
A: I don't -- I think he was; I think he was at this particular time,
THE COURT: When you say "Charles," you are talking about Watson?
MR. KEITH: Charles Watson, yes.
Q: Now, up to the time Charles Watson started living at Dennis Wilson's with Dean Moorehouse, how long would you say you and he had been together?
As long as a year?
A: Over a year, yes, sir.
Q: So you became, I daresay, quite well acquainted --
A: Yes, sir.
Q: -- with Charles; and I daresay you considered him a good friend?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: During this period of time of over a year, what sort of a person did Mr. Watson appear to you to be, a sort of a brief personality profile?
A: Well, he was very outgoing; not obnoxious, but outgoing, friendly.
I remember in college he enjoyed socializing. He partied quite a bit, was active in the fraternity.
Q: No, while you knew him closely --
A: Well, the way I knew him was more like a brother. We became very close.
Q: Except for one occasion that I will go into, did you ever see Charles do anything of a violent nature?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever see him attack anybody --
A: Never.
Q: -- or threaten anybody?
A: No, sir.
Q: Would you characterize him as just a very nice guy?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And during this period of time when you were together with him and became very close to him, like a brother, did you ever see Charles smoke marijuana?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did he smoke marijuana on a number of occasions, to your knowledge?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did your ever see him during this period of over a year that you were with him use anything, you might say, stronger than marijuana?
A: There was one incident. We were given some seeds from -- rosewood seeds, I believe they were.
Q: Now, when you say "we," you are referring to yourself and Charles?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And where were you at that time?
A: We were on Wonderland; we were living in Laurel Canyon at the time.
Q: So Wonderland Drive is the Laurel Canyon address?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did you see Charles take these seeds?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see what reaction befell him, if any?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what happened?
A: It was about probably two hours after we had taken the seeds, I was laying down in my bedroom and I heard Charles jump up and he was hitting the wall; and as I opened the door, he ran out of his room and into a hallway and there was a door to a bathroom -- I don't recall if he kicked it -- I think he hit it with his hand, but he put a hole through the door; and I grabbed him and began talking to him and wrestled with him for a moment and finally calmed him down; and he went back to bed and I stayed in the room and talked with him for a few minutes; and that was it.
Q: Did you ever during this over a year period that you were close to him see him use any acid or speed?
A: No.
Q: Or belladonna?
A: No
Q: Were you aware that Charles went to the Spahn Ranch to live with Charles Manson at the time that happened?
A: No, sir.
THE COURT: Just a moment. When you say "at the time that happened" are you referring to this rosewood seed incident?
MR. KEITH: No, I will reframe the question.
Q: What I meant was were you aware that Charles Watson went to live at the Spahn Ranch when it happened or did you hear about it sometime later?
A: He had gone to the ranch?
Q: Yes.
A: I was aware that he was with Charles Manson.
Q: And when did you first learn that?
A: Well, he told me that he was going to be with Charles Manson.
Q: All right.
Do you have any recollection of the approximate date when Charles Watson told you he was going to live with Charles Manson?
A: No, sir. I don't know what the date would be.
Q: Would it have been in 1968 sometime?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Would it be after Charles Watson met Dennis Wilson?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: And Manson at the beach.
A: Yes.
Q: And would it have been after you knew Charles Watson had become close to Dean Morehouse?
A: Yes, sir, In fact, I think he met Charles Manson through Dean Morehouse.
Q: Were you still living at this leased house in Malibu when Charles Watson told you he was going to the Spahn Ranch to be with Manson?
A: No, I wasn't.
Q: Where were you at that time?
A: I was staying with some friends in Studio City.
Q: And were you subleasing this house in Malibu at that time?
A: We had plans to and we had sublet it for a month and when I went back to check on the house is when the girls were there.
Q: Did you know whether this was, when the girls were there, whether this was before or after Charles Watson told you he was going to the Spahn Ranch?
A: This was before. He told me this during that period
Q: This was all about the same time?
A: I don't believe that they had moved to the ranch. In fact, they were living at our house in Malibu. When I went back to the house, the girls were there and they had set up camp in our house.
Q: You have to be careful about using just "they."
You have to keep the record straight.
A: Charles Manson, a number of teenage girls and Charles Watson.
Q: Did you ever see Charles Watson while he was living at the Spahn Ranch, actually at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you go up there --
A: Yes, sir.
Q: -- from time to time. And was this shortly after Charles Watson moved to the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What was he doing there, if anything?
A: At the ranch?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, when I went to the ranch for the first time they were working in the yard and not really doing much of anything.
Q: And had you noticed any change about Charles Watson at that time when you visited him at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Not a drastic change, but I had noticed a bit of a change in his personality.
Q: In what sense? Could you describe it for us as best you can?
A: Well, he seemed to have -- he was beginning to have an absence of emotion. He had a very blank look on his face.
Q: Anything else you can tell us?
A: Well, I know he was taking acid -- he had become to take a great deal of acid.
Q: How did you know that?
A: He told me.
Q: How any occasions, on how many occasions did you visit Charles Watson at the Spahn Ranch after he had moved out there with Manson?
A: Well, I had gone to the ranch maybe two or three different occasions, and Charles had come into town.
Q: By Charles, we have got to keep it straight who we are talking about.
Mr. Watson?
A: Tex had come to town.
Q: You didn't call him Tex?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: You called him Charles, did you not?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: So you saw Charles in town?
A: He would come to town once or twice a week.
Q: And you would see him then?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did you notice the same gradual change?
A: Yes, and slowly he began to -- I began to see him less and less.
Q: Let me interrupt you to establish a date. At some time you were inducted into the Army, were you not?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And do you remember when that was?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And when was that?
A: December of '68.
Q: On these occasions that you saw Charles Watson after he moved to the Spahn Ranch, was this before you were inducted into the Army?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And would you say the period we are now discussing would be the latter part of 1968 when you noticed this change in him?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When you saw Charles after he -- Charles Watson -- after he moved to the Spahn Ranch, whether at the Spahn Ranch or when Charles came into town, did Charles ever talk philosophically with you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what did he talk about, generally, on that subject?
A: Well, he talked generally about Charles most of the time --
Q: About --
A: About Manson.
Q: And this was, now -- we are talking about a period of time before you went in the army; right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what did Mr. Watson say about Mr. Manson, in substance or effect, if you can recall?
A: Well, he had put him on a level, felt that he was Jesus Christ.
Q: Is this what Charles Watson told you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And anything else that you can remember during this period of time?
A: This was during, well, just prior to my being inducted into the service, Charles called me --
Q: I was going to get to that, and where were you living at that time?
A: I was living with my brother, who was living in Highland Park.
Q: And you received, a call from Charles Watson?
A: Yes.
Q: And this was just before you want in the army; is that right?
A: Yes, sir; and I hadn't seen him, oh, for, I would say, over six weeks. He called me --
Q: All right; but just before going into the telephone call, Charles Watson had talked to you about Manson and how he thought Manson was Jesus Christ?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And something about Manson's philosophy?
A: Yes, sir; at length.
Q: All right. Now, getting back to the telephone call -- incidentally, how did Charles know how to reach you, if you know?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Pardon me?
A: I don't recall.
Q: At any rate, Charles Watson called --
A: I think the way he got the number was through the friends that I was living within Studio City.
Q: And you were living at Highland Park
A: Yes, sir.
Q: -- when Watson called you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did he express something about what was happening to him during this telephone conversation?
A: Yes, sir. He had gone through a complete reversal of anything that he ever believed as far as Manson, it seemed. He was almost frightened over the phone and asked me if there was room for him to come stay, he was afraid of the girls and also of Manson, and he was --
THE COURT: Just try to recall what he said and tell us what he said, please.
THE WITNESS: Well, he said he was frightened, he was frightened of what Manson and what the girls were doing and he felt that he was going insane, could he come stay with me.
BY MR. KEITH: And did Charles come and stay with you?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: This was in Highland Park?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How long did Charles stay with you?
A: He was there -- he was in Highland Park up until the time I was drafted, which was December 2nd.
Q: December 2nd, 1968?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And did Charles, himself, report for induction, if you know?
A: Yes, sir, he did.
Q: And do you know what the result of the physical was?
A: Yes, sir; as a result of the knee injury that he suffered, I think he was given a 1-Y classification. He wasn't inducted.
Q: And you went off to the army?
A: Yes sir,
Q: Now, during this two-week period when Charles was -- Watson -- was staying with you in Highland Park, did you and he have any further discussion abort Manson and the girls?
A: Yes.
Q: And did these discussions continue along the same lines as the telephone conversation, or what?
A: We talked of Manson's philosophy and we talked of the hold that he seemed to have on him and the hold that he seemed to have on the people were at the ranch; and I remember explicitly Charles saying that he felt he was losing his identity, didn't really know who he was when he was there.
Q: Did you try to make some effort to bring him out of this state of mind?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you don't know whether you were successful or not, I suppose?
A: No, sir, I don't.
Q: When you left for the army did you have occasion to see Charles Watson again while you were actually in the service?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: And on how many occasions?
A: Two separate times.
Q: When, approximately, was the first time?
A: The first time was in -- well, December, '68, I came home on a Christmas leave.
Q: And where did you see Mr. Watson?
A: If I'm not mistaken, he was still staying at the house, still living in Highland Park with my brother.
Q: During this two-week period -- remember us talking about the two-week period after Charles called you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And he stayed with you in Highland Park -- did his brother also stay with the two of you?
A: Yes, sir — my brother.
Q: Not "his" but your brother, I'm sorry.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And where was Charles, again, late in December when you came home for Christmas leave?
A: Well, her was living -- I think he was living in town but he was staying with my brother part of the time. He was traveling back and forth.
Q: At any rate, he wasn't back at the Spahn Ranch?
A: No, at this time he wasn't.
Q: Now, when approximately was the next time you saw Charles, Charles Watson?
A: I want to say June of '69 -- I'm not sure of the date. It was -- I was going to -- I had orders to go to Vietnam and I was home on leave and I was staying with a friend in Hollywood.
(Missing page)
Q: Do you remember who they were, the young girls? Were you introduced?
A: Yes, sir. I think one of them was Patricia Krenwinkel but I am not sure.
Q: Do you know who the other one was?
A: Not for sure, no.
Q: How did, if you know, Watson know how to find you in Hollywood?
A: I think that I had called him at the ranch trying to get in touch with him. He had left a number with my brother.
Q: Now, on this occasion in June or so of 1969 when Mr. Watson came to where you were living with two girls from the ranch, did you have a discussion with him?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And on this occasion did you notice any change in him from the way you had seen him last?
A: I didn't recognize him at first. That is the difference, in the change.
Q: What was it about his appearance that made it difficult for you to recognize him?
A: Well, physically, he had lost a great deal of weight.
He was smoking cigarettes, which I had never seen him do and he had a stare, absence of emotion almost.
Q: Was it more pronounced, this absence of emotion?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Than when you had seen him after this telephone call?
A: Yes, definitely.
Q: And did you have a discussion with him?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: And did you and he take a walk?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did the girls from the ranch go with you?
A: The girls did not go along. They remained at the house.
Q: What did Charles tell you, Charles Watson, in substance?
A: Well, he asked me to come to the ranch and to live and he explained Charles Manson's philosophy, which was now his, and he explained helter skelter and he told me that there was going to be a revolution in the country.
He didn't say — he did say that Charles Manson well, the thing that kept throwing me was he kept referring to Charles Manson, the girls, and himself as one. They were all the same.
Q: Go on. Anything else you can remember?
A: I remember him telling me of helter skelter, of the revolution, and that it would be happening in this country within a matter of months.
Q: What did you say to him, if anything?
A: Well, for starters no about going to the ranch and living with the people. There really wasn't much reasoning. I didn't really know him. He was a completely different person.
Q: How long did you see him on this occasion? A matter of hours?
A: A matter of an hour and a half or two hours.
Q: And did he constantly talk about Manson and helter skelter and the concept of oneness?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Then did he leave with the girls?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did his appearance and did his conversation disturb you or distress you in any way?
A: It disturbed me mainly because I didn't -- he had completely lost his identity from the Charles that I knew. It wasn't the same person.
Q: Did you ever see him again after that?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you try to contact him at all or did he try to, or did he contact you over the telephone, if you know?
A: No, sir.
Q: When you saw him in June of '69, other than his dress, did he look something as he looks today?
A: Well, his hair was longer. He was not quite as thin, but he was thinner than I had ever seen him. He was explaining to me how he was living on the desert and was living strictly off of the desert. Any food that was obtained was obtained from the desert. He was adapting himself to the desert -- was another one of the things we talked about.
THE COURT: Did he mention a bottomless pit to you?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
MR. KEITH: I have nothing further at this time.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KAY:
Q: David, you say that Mr. Watson told you in June of '69 that helter skelter, the revolution, would be happening in a couple of months.
Did he tell you how it was going to start?
A: No he didn't; he didn't mention it.
Q: What did he say about helter skelter, about the revolution?
A: He just mentioned that through acid and through a level of understanding that Charles Manson was on, and he was also on, they had listened to enough music that the Beatles were putting out at this time and he -- being Charles Manson had decided that helter skelter was what was going to happen.
Q: Did Tex say that he thought that this was what was going to happen?
A: Well, he was talking almost as if he were -- when I would ask him about Charles Manson or about the girls he would say, "We are the same, so if you ask me about one of them you are asking me about me."
Q: Now, how well did you know Charles back in the fraternity in Texas?
A: I knew him to -- not closely, but I knew him; we were friends.
(Missing page)
A: Approximately $150 a week. I know he was selling more wigs and doing better -- he was a salesman at that time.
Q: And where was the wig shop located?
A: It was located on Canon Drive in Beverly Hills.
Q: Now, when you and Charles opened your wig shop where was that wig shop?
A: That was on San Vicente, Beverly Hills.
Q: And how long did you have this wig shop together?
A: I'm not sure of the time; four months, five months.
Q: And was this a prosperous business or what?
A: No, not really; that's why we closed the shop.
Q: Did you mutually close the shop?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: In other words, it was a mutual decision?
A: Right.
Q: Now, this occasion where you say that you and Mr. Watson took rosewood seeds, when would that be; could you place a date in relationship to, say, when you had this wig shop together in December of '68?
Was that before?
A: This was just as we had moved to Laurel Canyon, after we had been there, oh, a month.
Q: And when would that be as far as --
A: I don't recall the dates.
Q: When would that be in relationship to when you opened the wig shop together?
A: Oh, seven months, eight months.
Q: Now, on approximately how many occasions did you and Mr. Watson smoke marijuana together?
MR. KEITH: That assumes facts not in evidence, that he smoked any.
Q BY MR. KAY: Well, did.you smoke any?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions did you and Mr. Watson' smoke marijuana together while you were living together?
A: Oh, numerous occasions.
Q: Well, what would that be; 30, 40?
A: Thirty or forty separate times? Probably at least that.
Q: Were any other drugs taken by either you or Mr. Watson during that period --
A: None.
Q: -- other than the rosewood seeds and the marijuana
A: No.
Q: Now, you say that the time you saw Mr. Watson out at Spahn Ranch sometime, before December of '68 you told. Mr.Keith that it appeared that Mr. Watson somewhat had an absence of emotion.
What did you base this on; did you tell him a joke and he didn't laugh, or what?
A: Well, when I went to the ranch, as I recall, there were girls -- they were cooking dinner and there was really a look on. -- I don't know at that particular time if they were on acid or what, but there was very little emotion from anyone, other than the old man, the blind old man, Spahn.
Q: George Spahn?
A: Spahn; he was there; and he would occasionally ask a question, but the girls and Charles -- Tex -- seemed to be -- I thought they were stoned on something. l didn't know what, but there was just no reaction.
Q: There was no reaction to what?
A: Well, to questions.
Q: By you?
A: By me and by the old man.
Q: Would they just not answer your questions?
A: They would either not answer the or for the most part just stare.
Q: Without answering the questions?
A: Without answering.
Q: What type of questions were these that you asked?
A: "It's a nice day --" anything. They would just -- they were not -- not only weren't they friendly, they were almost scary.
Q: You felt somewhat that you were unwelcome there; is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Mr. Watson seem unhappy at all when he was living with you at any stage?
A: Unhappy?
Q: Yes, unhappy with society, with his life, with college?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember who this other girl was besides you think it was Patricia Krenwinkel, possibly that came over when you were on this leave from the army, when Tex came over to your place in Hollywood, the place that you were staying.
Do you remember?
A: I don't remember who the -- there were three girls. I remember that.
Q: Three girls?
A: Right.
Q: And when you and Tex went on this walk, they stayed in the house?
A: Yes, sir, they did.
Q: Did Tex ask them to stay in the house so he could go on the walk or did you ask them to stay or did they just stay?
A: I don't recall how that happened. I think we just -- I think we were talking in the kitchen and we just walked through the -- they were sitting in the living room talking with some friends of mine and we just walked out the front door and took a walk.
Q: So just about every time you saw Mr. Watson after he started living with the Manson family he always had girls around, is that correct, or there always seemed to be girls around?
A: He always seemed to have someone from the ranch with him?
Q: Female?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And generally more than one?
A: Yes, generally.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Watson take LSD?
A: I had seen him under the influence of LSD, yes.
Q: And when you say you had seen him under the influence, did you see him take what you knew to be LSD or did he just ten you he had taken LSD?
A: I think her had told me but I recall seeing him with capsules.
Q: And was this out at the Spahn Ranch?
A: This was out at the Spahn Ranch, yes.
Q: And was he violent on that occasion?
A: No.
Q: How did he act?
A: There was very little emotion. He wasn't violent. He seemed to be almost lost as if he were in a daze, but he was smiling. He wasn't unhappy.
Q: Didn't threaten you or anybody that was around him?
A: No.
Q: So the last time that you saw Mr. Watson was June of '69; is that right?
A: I am not sure about the date, but that is close.
Q: Until today?
A: I have seen him since then.
Q: What? In jail?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times have you visited him in jail?
A: Two times.
Q: When was that?
A: It has been about two weeks ago and then about, oh, two weeks before that.
Q: Did you discuss your testimony at all with him? What you were going to say in court?
A: No.
Q: When is the first time, you ever told anybody about this phone conversation in December, or before you got inducted, the phone conversation with Mr. Watson?
A: When was the first time?
Q: Yes.
A: I told my brother just after he called.
Q: Did you ever contact the police or law enforcement authorities about any of this information that you are telling as today?
Q: No.
A: And besides this marijuana and the rosewood seeds have you ever taken any other drug?
MR. KEITH: Object to the question as irrelevant.
THE COURT: With Watson.
THE WITNESS: With Watson?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. KAY: I think it might go to his state of mind, your Honor, whether he has ever seen the other.
THE COURT: It might but I don't think so.
MR. KAY: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q BY MR. KAY: When Tex told you that he was living strictly off the desert, when you saw him in June of '69, did he say exactly what he was eating? Like cactus plants or what?
A: He said he was adapting to the desert and he was eating cactus or plants of the desert, but mostly just drinking water. He wasn't eating very much of anything.
MR. KAY: I have no further questions.
MR. KEITH: May I reopen for just a question or two?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KEITH:
Q: David, before Charles ever went to the Spahn Ranch, some abort time before, did you ever have conversations with Charles Watson about the subject of giving material things away?
A: Yes, sir.
A: And when and where did that conversation take place?
Did I say "Manson"?
A: No.
THE COURT: "Watson."
MR. KEITH: I thought I said "Watson." Mr. Bubrick said --
MR. BUBRICK: I'm sorry. I thought this was a conversation with Manson.
THE COURT: Those things happen.
Q BY MR. KEITH: My question was, when and where was that conversation?
A: This conversation -- well, it happened on several occasions; but, as I recall, it was when he first started living with, staying at Dennis Wilson's house.
Q: And what did Mr. Watson tell you on the subject of material possessions?
A: It wasn't so much what he told me as his actions. He was giving --
Q: Well, don't tell us -- do you know this of your own knowledge that he gave things away?
A: Do I know that he gave things away?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Alright, tell us what you saw him do while he was living at Dennis'.
A: Well, I know he gave some Stereo equipment away, a pickup truck, the majority of his clothes or all of his clothes except for a pair of jeans or two.
Q: Do you know to whom he gave these things?
A: At the time, anyone who asked.
Q: And did he ever discuss with you the concept of sharing everything with everybody and that no one should own anything?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And what did he say on that subject?
By "he" I am referring to Watson now.
A: Well, he said that material -- there was no -- how did he put it? -- there is no need in material possessions; there is no need to have them.
Q: Did he tell you this at or about the time he was giving everything he owned away?
A: Yes.
Q: And did he ever tell you where he learned this philosophy from, or did you know?
A: Well, this was through Manson. He was with -- he talked about after being at Dennis' and after meeting Manson.
Q: "He," now is Charles Watson?
A: Charles Watson talked of Manson after meeting him, began talking about him everytime I would see him, about the things they were doing as far as spiritually being like one and being together; and the material things they were giving away.
I asked him once if they were keeping material things and he said no, when they got material things if someone else needed it worse than they did, they passed them on.
Q: Who is "they," Manson and the girls?
A: Manson and the girls; Charles Watson.
Q: Were you aware that Manson was the one who actually got the truck and the camera equipment?
MR. KAY: I believe this assumes facts not in evidence; I believe the testimony is that Ruth Moorehouse got the truck.
MR. KEITH: I will withdraw the question.
THE COURT: You are right; that's the testimony.
MR. KEITH: I have nothing further.
MR. KAY: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Thank you; you may be excused.
Suppose we have our morning recess at this time.
Ladies and gentlemen, we will have our morning recess at this time and, once again, please heed the usual admonition.
(Recess.)
THE COURT: People against Watson.
Let the record show all jurors are present. All counsel and the defendant are present.
MR. BUBRICK: Call the defendant Watson, your Honor.
THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, please.
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
THE WITNESS: I do.
CHARLES WATSON,
the defendant herein, called as a witness on his own behalf, testified as follows
THE CLERK: Thank you. Be seated.
Would you state your name?
THE WITNESS: Charles, C-h-a-r-l-e-s Watson; W-a-t-s-o-n.
THE CLERK: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:
Q: Charles, when is it that you first came to California?
A: It was in August of 1967.
Q: And when you came here, where did you come from?
A: Dallas, a small town named Copeville, Texas.
Q: Is Copeville where you had been raised?
A: Yes.
Q: And who did you live there with?
A: My parents and my brother and my sister.
Q: Your sister is the oldest one in the family; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And then your brother is next, obviously, then you are the youngest?
A: Right, yes.
Q: And there was just the three of you in the family; is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What sort of a town, or how big a town is Copeville?
A: Around 150 people.
Q: Can you place it for us with respect to Dallas?
A: It is 35 miles from Dallas, I believe, north, I believe.
Q: 35 miles north of Dallas?
A: Yes.
Q: I take it you lived there all of your life; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you go to school in Copeville?
A: I went to school in Farmersville.
Q: How far is that from Copeville?
A: Seven miles.
Q: How did you get there?
A: I rode the bus.
Q: Did you have any difficulty in grade school or elementary school?
A: No.
Q: Did you go to school regularly?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you play hookey; do you know what I mean by that?
A: No, I always got a perfect attendance award every year for not missing any days.
Q: Was your health good in those days?
A: Yes, very good.
Q: Did you have any hobbies while you were going to grade school?
A: No, I don't believe so, in going to grade school; just maybe working around the station and around, the house and stuff, that's about all.
Q: What did your father do?
A: He owns a gas station sad grocery store, combined.
Q: Is that close to the family residence?.
A: Yes, it is; the house is right beside the store.
Q: Is that the only business you have known your father to have?
A: Yes, right.
Q: And did you grow up while he was conducting that station and that little store?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you work there with him from time to time?
A: After school and in -- in my early years -- and then after football practice and the sport practices when I was in college.
Q: But in your younger years, you would help out occasionally; is that correct?
A: Right, occasionally.
Q: Eventually, I take it, you went into high school; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Where did you go to school, in high school?
A: Farmersville High School.
Q: Did you go there the full four years?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any extracurricular activities in high school?
A: Sports, and I was in the band one year, I believe, and the big thing kind of was sports all the time, football and basketball and track.
Q: Did you letter in those sports?
A: Yes, every year I lettered in sports.
Q: How many letters did you get in high school?
A: Well, I got one each year; that would be four in football and in basketball and in track.
Q: 12 letters for the four years?
A: 12 letters, yes.
Q: Did you ever do any -- did you ever belong to the 4-H Club?
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: How long were you in that organization?
A: Two years.
Q: What did you do as a member of that club?
A: I remember we raised calves and things like that, you know.
Q: Did you raise a calf?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Anything else that you remember doing in the 4-H club?
A: No, I don't remember of anything else.
Q: Did you belong to something known as the FHA -- I mean FFA?
A: FFA.
Q: I am sorry.
A: Future Farmers.
Q: Future Farmers of America?
A: Right.
Q: Is that an organization similar to the 4-H club?
A: Yes.
Q: How big a school is Farmersville High School?
A: I'm not for sure about that at all. I know there was about 40 in my class.
Q: In your graduating class?
A: Right.
Q: Do you have any idea of about how many students were in the school, the total school population?
A: Just what I have heard recently, 500, but that is all I know, you know. I don't know how many was in there.
Q: What sort of grades did you get in high school?
A: A's, mostly A's. I made a B every once in a while.
Q: Were you on any honorary societies in school, if you remember?
A: I can't remember. I know I was in the top -- one of the top 10 in my graduating class.
Q: Did you do any work after school or during the summer periods while you were going to school?
A: Yes. I always worked for Mr. Carpenter at an onion packing plant, making money for college.
Q: Save the money you made working for him?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know how many summers or how many years you worked for him?
A: I was around 14 when I started working for him and I worked for him all the summers up until the summer I came to California and then I didn't work for him that summer.
Q: And the last summer would have been 1966 that you worked for him?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: You came here in '67; is that correct?
A: Right, uh-huh.
Q: I take it you did not work for him in '67.
A: No, I didn't.
Q: What sort of work did you do for Mr. Carpenter?
A: I sacked onions and I was kind of a mechanic around the shop and I drove a forklift and when I first started graded onions and toted bags, I should say carried the bags around to plant.
Q: And in your latter years, Charles, how long would you work during your summer vacation?
A: We would work up to, I remember some weeks worked up to 90 hours a week.
Q: Would you work the entire summer?
A: Yes, I would.
Q: From the time school let out until the time school started again?
A: Sometimes I would start just a little before school got out and work after school a little bit and then I worked all summer.
Q: How did you get along with the people at the plant, the people you worked with?
A: Good.
Q: Did you ever have any difficulty with any of them?
A: No, sir, not at all.
Q: Did you ever have any fights with any of them?
A: No.
Q: How did you get along with your brother and sister?
A: Very well.
Q: Did you have any difficulty with them that you can recall?
A: No, never did.
Q: And how about your dad? What would you say your relationship was with him?
A: Well, my relationship with him was like I said when I would get home from my school in my younger years I would kind of play around between the house and the station there, and then after I got into high school, I would always be playing sports until dark like and I would come home and then I would be at the house mostly, you know, studying or -- studying until the time for bed, you know, then I would go to bed.
THE COURT: What Mr. Bubrick wants to know is did you get along well with your father.
THE WITNESS: Yes. I got along well with my father. Q BY
MR. BUBRICK: You never had any fights that you know of with your dad?
A: No, not at all.
Q: Did you ever have any reason to leave home? Did you ever run away from home?
A: No, no.
Q: Was your dad a pretty good mechanic?
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: Where did you pick up your mechanical skills ?
A: From my dad.
Q: After you graduated from high school, Charles, did you go on to college
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Where did you go?
A: I went to North Texas State University.
Q: Incidentally, how big a person were you physically while you were going to high school?
A: Most of the time I weighed around 155 or 160; maybe up to 165 at times.
Q: Is that about what you weighed while you played football?
A: Yes, that's what I weighed when I played football.
Q: How about track, did you maintain the same weight or did you slim down?
A: I don't recall about that; I just --
Q: What was your major endeavor in track?
A: High hurdles and the hundred yard dash, and the 220.
Q: Do you remember the best time you ever made for the high hurdles?
A: Fourteen something; fourteen nine or fourteen eight, fourteen seven, in the upper fourteens.
Q: Is that 220 high hurdle --
A: No, it is 120 high hurdles.
THE COURT: How about the hundred yard dash; what was the best you did there?
THE WITNESS: The best I ever did was nine nine.
THE COURT: Nine nine?
THE WITNESS: Right.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Now, when you went on into college you went to Denton -- sorry, you went to North Texas State in Denton; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: How far is that from Copeville?
A: Around 50 miles.
Q: When you went to college, Charles, did you live in Denton or did you commute?
A: I lived in Denton.
Q: Whose decision was it to go to North Texas State?
A: It was more or less my mother's decision to go to North Texas.
Q: You had an older brother who played football, didn't you?
A: Yes, I had an older brother that played football.
Q: Where did he go to school?
A: He went to school at Texas Christian University.
Q: And did he go on a scholarship, if you know?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: When you went to North Texas State did you go on any scholarship?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Had your sister gone to that same school?
A: Yes, she had.
Q: Did you particularly want to go to North Texas State?
A: I really didn't know. It didn't make me any difference, you know, where I went to college. I didn't really object to it and I didn't really want to, you know.
Q: Well, did you really want to go to college?
A: It really wasn't my decision, you know, like my brother and sister had gone, so that's what I was expected to do, was to go to college.
Q: You felt that was what was expected of you; is that correct?
A: In a way, yes.
Q: And that I take it you did actually enroll and go for three years; is that correct?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you do any work while you were going to school?
A: Well, the summers I would work at the onion packing plant until the last semester in college; and I started working for Braniff International.
Q: I appreciate that you worked during the summer, Charles; but did you do anything while you were going to school --
A: No
Q: -- did you work after school, days? .
A: No, I didn't work after school. I had saved mymoney, you know.
Q: Did you come home very frequently?
A: Not very frequently, no, I didn't.
Q: Did you have any transportation? Did you have a car by this time?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: When did you first get a car, if you remember?
A: I believe my last year in high school I got a car.
Q: And did you take that on to college with you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: When did you start to work for the airlines?
A: I started to work for the airlines, I believe, around the first part of 1967.
Q: Were you still going to school then?
A: Yes.
Q: And where did you work, in what facility did you work?
A: Dallas, Texas.
Q: And how did you get from Denton to Dallas?
A: I would drive.
Q: How far is that?
A: I believe it is around 40 miles.
Q: 40 miles each way?
A: I believe, yes.
Q: And did you maintain a full course of studies in college?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Then what did you do, work everyday after school?
A: No, I worked -- yeah, everyday after school, right.
Q: How long, how many hours would you work daily?
A: I worked a full eight hours, plus I went to school full time and worked full. time.
Q: Do you remember what time your classes would let out so that you could get on to work?
A: Sometimes -- let's see, during that period I believe they got over between noon and 2:00 o'clock, something like that.
Q: Then after class was over you'd drive down to the airlines?
A: Right.
Q: Where, what facility did you work at; did you work at some airport or something?
A: Dallas airport.
Q: Do you remember the name of that?
A: l believe it was Love Field, I believe.
Q: Love Field?
A: Love Field, yes.
Q: And you would leave school and drive the distance to Love Field, and how long would you work at the airport?
A: l would work there till around midnight.
Q: And then what would you do?
A: Then I would come back and study or go to sleep, and get up and go to classes again.
Q: How long did you maintain this schedule?
A: Until school was out in the summer.
Q: Summer of '67?
A: Yes.
Q: And what sort of grades did you get that semester?
A: Much lower grades than I had been getting.
Q: And what happened in the summer of '67, if anything?
A: Well, I quit the airlines and decided to move to California.
Q: Now, do you remember -- did you know Dave Neal in school?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And how did you happen to know him?
A: He was a fraternity brother of mine.
Q: Did you live at a fraternity house?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did Dave live there?
A: No, Dave didn't.
Q: How often would you see Dave at school?
A: Quite often, you know, during the weeks.
Q: Was Dave a football player at school?
A: Yes, he was on -- I believe he had a scholarship or something like that in school.
Q: Did you know that Dave had moved to California?
A: Yes.
Q: I take it you realized he had dropped out of school?
A: Not for sure about that.
Q: But you did know that he came to California?
A: I know he came to California and he didn't finish, so he must of -- I don't know if he dropped -- I guess you’d call it dropout.
Q: How long did you go to college?
A: Three years.
Q: And you dropped out your last year; is that correct?
A: That is correct. I didn't go my senior year.
THE COURT: Charles, have you told us when you were born?
THE WITNESS: I was born December 2nd, 1945.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: You actually were born in Dallas; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Then you moved right to Copeville thereafter?
A: I guess I did. That was pretty early, you know.
Q: Do you have any recollection of ever having lived in Dallas?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you know how it was that you came to find Dave in California?
A: I remember that he -- right at the end of school, I believe, that last semester, he was visiting some people in Denton -- I believe his family or something -- and he talked about California and I knew then I knew someone in California then, I guess, you know.
Q: Did you know where in California he lived?
A: No, I did not. I didn't know. I just knew he was in California.
Q: Prior to coming to California, Charles, had you ever visited any other parts of the country?
A: No, other than I had been to Mexico a couple of times.
Q: How did you get there?
A: On Braniff Airlines, passes and things like that.
Q: This is while you worked for the airline company; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Do you remember how many times you flew to Mexico with them?
A: I believe a couple of times. I went to Acapulco.
Q: Both times?
A: Yes.
Q: And were those the only flights that you made out of Texas other than to California, if you remember?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Do you remember how you got in touch with Dave when you decided to come out here?
A: I phoned him.
Q: From where?
A: From Dallas, I believe.
Q: How did you find out where he lived here in Los Angeles, or in California, I should say?
A: I don't remember really but I believe the telephone was in his name or something like that.
Q: And so you called him when?
A: Around in August of '67.
Q: Did you come out here then?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How many times? Do you remember?
A: I would say about four times, I believe.
Q: You came out here at some time you decided to stay permanently; is that correct?
A: Yes. The last time I decided to stay permanently.
Q: How many trips did you make between Dallas and California before you came here on a permanent basis?
A: I would say about four.
Q: Do you remember when they occurred?
A: During the month of August, I believe, maybe the latter part of July, I believe. I can't recall for sure.
Q: When would you come out, if you remember, what days of the week?
A: I would come out on the weekend, or when my -- I would be working for them and then when my two days came up to be off, I would come out.
Q: How did you come out? On passes?
A: Yes, and half fare, I believe.
Q: Always on Braniff Airlines?
A: No; it was on Delta Airlines.
Q: Delta?
A: Yes,
Q: When did you decide to come out here permanently, if you remember?
A: The latter part of August before school started that year.
Q: In 1967?
A: Yes.
Q: When you made that move, Charles, did you bring anything with you?
A: I brought all my possessions with me.
Q: What did that include, if you remember?
A: All my clothes, I had quite a lot of clothes and a lot of stereo equipment and camera equipment and things like towels and linens and just all kinds of little gadgets, you know.
Q: And prior to the time that you left Texas to come to California, had you ever had any drugs? Ever use any drugs?
A: I used marijuana one time.
Q: Where was that?
A: That was in Dallas.
Q: Do you remember what year?
A: That was nearly the day I moved to California,
Q: What?
A: Nearly the day -- it was just about the same day or right around the time,
Q: That would have been in August of '67?
A: Yes, right.
Q: Do you remember who you used it with?
A: I used it with a girl in Dallas.
Q: Is that the only occasion on which you used marijuana in Texas?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Did you use any other drugs in Texas?
A: None other than one or two times I stayed up for exams or something at school and some kind of a pill that would make you stay awake, you know, like to be able to stay up and study for the test, one or two times. I believe that is all.
Q: Other than those two occasions, are there any other drugs that you can think of that you used in Texas?
A: No, none at all.
Q: When you came to California then in August of ‘67, where did you stay, if you remember?
A: I moved in with David and his brother.
Q: Where were they living, if you remember?
A: In the Hollywood area, I believe.
Q: Did you bring your possessions with you, or were they trans shipped, if you remember?
A: Some of them I brought with me and a lot of them were shipped in a big trunk, I remember a big trunk, and big boxes.
Q: Did you take all the things with you then to David or wherever he lived with his brother?
A: Yes, right.
Q: How long did you stay there?
A: I believe around two or three weeks.
Q: Can you fix the time of year for us now?
A: It was before school has started and before I had enrolled in school at Cal State.
Q: Did you actually enroll at Cal State?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Do you remember when that was?'
A: I believe school started around the middle of September, is that correct? The middle of September or somewhere like that.
Q: What brought you to California, if you know?
A: I don't really know why. I think it was just maybe the adventure, i guess -- that's about it, about the adventure, I guess, I mean --
Q: You told us how big a city Copeville. was. How big a city was Farmersville?
A: Around 2,000 people.
Q: And how about Denton?
A: I don't have any idea.
Q: Was it bigger than Farmersville?
A: Yes, it was big -- bigger.
Q: And aside from being away from home at Denton, had you ever been away from home before?
A: No, I haven't .
Q: So this is really the first time that you have been away from home, on any extended period; is that correct?
A: Yes, it was the first time away from home.
Q: You enrolled, then, at Cal State in September of '67; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did you go to school?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: For how long?
A: Up until the time when you could -- it was right after the time when you couldn't drop out, without getting all -- right after that time.
Q: Can you tell us how long you went in terms of weeks, months or anything like that?
A: I'd say a couple of months.
Q: Then you just left school, did you?
A: Yes, I, was working at the same time and going to school.
Q: What sort of work were you doing about this time?
A: I was working for a wig company.
Q: Do you remember where it was located?
A: It was -- in Beverly Hills.
Q: Is this still a time when you were living with David and his brother?
A: No, I had moved; David and I had moved into an apartment together.
Q: When did you make that move?
A: A couple of weeks after I was living with David in Hollywood, after -- a couple of weeks after I came to California.
Q: Was that before you enrolled in school?
A: Both of those happened about the same time.
Q: So that might have been what, September of ‘67?
A: Yes, right.
Q: When did you go to work for the wig company, if you know?
A: Around the same time.
Q: What sort of work were you doing?
A: Started out walking around the streets passing out cards to women to get them to come into the shop.
Q: For wigs?
A: Yes.
Q: How long. did you do that?
A: Until I started selling: wigs in the shop.
Q: How long did you work at the wig shop?
A: Until I had an automobile accident.
Q: When did that occur?
A: That was at the first of '68.
Q: In January?
A: In January, I believe, yes.
Q: Where were you living -- were you living at the same place with David while you worked at this wig shop?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you living with David when you had the accident?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have some surgery; were you hospitalized with the accident?
A: I had a knee operation.
Q: Do you remember when that was?
A: That was about a month after the accident..
Q: Were you laid up for any period of time, if you remember?
A: Yes, for a while; and then for, I guess -- I don't know how long, but I laid up a while and then I went back working for the wig company.
Q: Did your mother come out to visit you while you were laid up?
A: Yes, she did.
Q: How long did she stay, if you remember?
A: I don't remember exactly; about a week, I believe.
Q: When you went back to work did you go to work for the same wig company?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How much longer did you work for that company?
A: I believe about a month or two, I believe.
Q: What happened after you left that job?
A: David and I opened up a wig shop of our own.
Q: Where did you do that?
A: It was close to Wilshire, I know.
Q: In the west end of town, downtown, where?
A: Probably about 10 miles from downtown, I believe.
Q: Was it in the western part of the city?
A: No, it was kind of in the Hollywood district.
Q: How long did you maintain that business, the one that you and David started?
A: Not for very long, because it didn't work out, didn't make any money.
Q: Did you ever meet anybody by the name of Dennis Wilson?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you meet him, if you know?
A: It was right around the time when we went out of business at the wig shop.
Q: How did you happen to meet Dennis Wilson?
A: I was driving down Sunset Boulevard toward the ocean and then I picked him up hitch-hiking.
Q: Now, up until the time that you mat Dennis Wilson and after you moved here to California, had you used any drugs
A: Yes, I had used marijuana and hash..
Q: What is hash?
A: That's a form of marijuana; the same thing as marijuana, I believe; and rosewood seeds one time.
Q: Do you remember where you were living when you used the rosewood seeds?
A: I was living in Laurel Canyon.
Q: Had you used them on any other occasion other than this one?
A: No, I only used them once.
Q: What effect, if any, did it have on you, if you know?
A: Well, a lot of hallucinations. I remember the room came in on me completely; and it seems like my head was just in one little room, you know, and the little room was around my head. And I remember I hit a door, hit the door and put my hand through a door; and kind of got mad at the guy that gave them to us, you know.
I never had did anything like that or anything, and I couldn't understand why he had given me something that would make me do that.
Q: Was anybody else with you at the time you took the rosewood seeds?
A: David was with me -- David.
Q: Other than that you had smoked marijuana and hash; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Had you ever had any reaction from those drugs?
A: No, none at all.
Q: Do you remember on how many occasions you might have smoked them?
A: We smoked -- I don't know how many occasions.
Q: Numerous?
A: Yea, uh-huh.
Q: Now, can you tell us about when it was that you met Dennis Wilson?
A: It must have been around in April, I guess, April of May of it would be '68.
Q: I think you told us you picked him up hitch-hiking; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Where did you take him, if you remember?
A: I took him to his house.
Q: Where was that?
A: It was in Pacific Palisades.
Q: Was there anybody else there when you got there?
A: Yes, a guy by the name of Dean Moorehouse was there; and Charles Manson was there and he had a bunch of girls with him, about five or six girls.
Q: Had you ever met any of these people before?
A: No, that was the first time.
Q: How long did you stay at Dennis Wilson's on the date of your first meeting with him?
A: Just for a while that evening.
Q: Did anything unusual happen while you were there?
A: No, not nothing unusual. We just sat around the coffee-table and the girls brought in some food and. we smoked some hash that night.
Q: That was the first night you met Dennis and the other people?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Was there anything other than hash that was used, if you remember?
A: No, not at all.
Q: What sort of a car were you driving, if you remember?
A: I was driving an old truck, '35 Dodge, kind of an antique truck.
Q: I think you told us you stayed a couple of hours that evening, did you?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Where did you go after that?
A: I went back -- I went, drove on down to where our house was on the beach.
Q: In the Malibu area?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Were you still living with somebody else?
A: I was living with David at the time.
Q: Were you working at this time?
A: No. I had just went out of the wig business..
Q: Did you see Dennis Wilson often thereafter?
A: On occasions I would drop by and visit and go swimming in the pool.
Q: Did you become friendly with anybody you met at Dennis Wilson's?
A: Dennis wasn't there a lot and a guy by the name of Dean Moorehouse was living there. He was kind of the one that raked up the leaves and kind of took care of the place.
Q: Where was he living, if you know?
A: He was living it a little log cabin behind the main house.
Q: That is on Dennis Wilson's property?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Would you see Dean Morehouse frequently?
A: Yes, quite often. I eventually moved into Dennis' house. Dennis asked me to move in.
Q: Do you remember when you did that?
A: David and I leased out the beachhouse, our beachhouse, and then after that I really didn't have a place to stay, so Dennis asked me to move in to his place.
Q: How many times would you say you had seen Dennis or you had been at Dennis' house from the time that you first met him and the time that you moved in?
A: Probably 10 times.
Q: How about Dean Moorehouse, had you met him on a number of occasions?
A: Every time I was there, he was there.
Q: How about Charles Manson?
A: Charles Manson was there a few times and his girls was always there, you know.
Q: When you say "his girls," do you know who they were? Can you identify them for us?
A: No, I can't. I believe Brenda was there, a girl by the name of Diane.
Q: Is that Diane Lake?
A: She always went by the name of Diane Bluestein. That was her names.
Q: Is that the Diane that you are talking about?
A: Yes, Diane Lake is the Diane I are talking about and another girl named Diane, too, that was a girl friend of Dennis' was living there.
Q: Do you know her last name?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Does Mr. Moorehouse have a daughter?
A: Yes, he had a daughter.
Q: Was she there?
A: On occasion she was there. She lived out at the ranch mostly.
Q: What would you do when you would visit with Dennis before you moved in?
A: Just kind of go over and sit around and go swimming and then Dean Moorehouse would be talking to me all the time, you know.
Q: What did he talk about?
A: Kind of about dropping out of society, I guess you would say, or about society.
Q: What would he say about society that you can now remember?
A: Well, he would talk about how they had a lot of wants and desires, of wanting material things, and how they had a lot of thought in their heads and a lot of wants.
Q: Did he say there was anything wrong with having thoughts in your head or having wants?
A: Yes. He said that this was where the -- that it was destroying the love in the world.
Q: Did he ever tell you how he defined love?
A: Not having any thought, being able to give everything that you had.
Q: On how many occasions would you say you and Mr. Moorehouse talked along these lines?
A: Every time I was around him, this is all he talked about.
Q: Were you taking any drugs at this time?
A: During that period, just marijuana.
Q: And how frequently were you using that?
A: Pretty frequently.
Q: At Dennis Wilson's?
A: Yes, before I moved in.
Q: Any other drugs that you used while you were at Dennis’?
A: After I moved in, I took some LSD.
Q: Let's stop there a minute. Had you ever used anything like LSD before you moved in to Dennis Wilson's?
A: No, this -- no, never had used LSD before.
Q: Had you been staying with Dean Moorehouse before you moved into Dennis Wilson's?
A: Well, I wasn't staying with Dean Moorehouse, until I moved in to Dennis Wilson's house.
Q: When you say you moved in with Dennis Wilson, did you move into the main house or did you move into the cabin that Dean Moorehouse lived in?
A: I moved into the main house, in one of the bedrooms.
Q: I think you told us you used some LSD there; is that correct?
A: Yes, LSD, but it was real light, like it really didn't have a big effect.
Q: Do you remember what effect, if any, it did have on you?
A: At that time it just kind of made me submit and believe more of what Dean Moorehouse was saying.
Q: And was he saying the same thing you have told us about hare before?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Would Dean Moorehouse use LSD at the same time you did, if you know?
A: Yes.
Q: How about Dennis Wilson?
A: I never did take LSD that much, when I was living at Dennis Wilson's house.
Q: Did you ever see Manson while you were at Dennis Wilson's house?
A: Yes. He would always be coming over quite frequently.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Manson use any LSD?
A: On one occasion, I believe while I was at Dennis' house.
Q: How long did you live at Dennis' house?
A: Up until the end of August or close to the end of August.
Q: What year?
A: I believe, '68.
Q: Now, can you tell us the number of times that you used LSD while you lived at Dennis Wilson's house?
A: Around two times; one time some people came by and gave it to us, and then another time I believe Dean had it that time.
Q: Did Dean use LSD both times that you did?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Were you using anything other than LSD while you were living at Dennis', other than the marijuana and hash that you have told us about?
A: Yes, some cannabinol -- that's a synthetic marijuana, I believe.
Q: Does that also go by some initials, if you know?
A: THC, I believe.
Q: Anything else?
A: That's all.
Q: Were the girls there --
A: Let's see, I think we took some -- one time we took some peyote there.
Q: Do you remember who brought that?
A: No, I don't remember who brought it by. I remember they cooked it or something. I remember I threw it up and that was it.
Q: Do you remember what form the peyote took?
A: It was a cactus like plant.
Q: Then what did they do with it, if you know?
A: They cooked it up and we were supposed to eat it, you know; and that's what we did.
Q: You ate some solid mass?
A: Right, it didn't stay down; I threw it up.
Q: Did you take it on any other occasion that you remember, at Dennis Wilson's?
A: No, none at all; that's all I took at Dennis Wilson's.
Q: Did you still have your truck and the hi-fi equipment and the other property you brought with you from Texas?
A: Yes, I had the truck and it was loaded down with all of my possessions that I could get in it and the rest was at the beachhouse that we had leased out. I had a storage, kind of.
Q: What did you do with the stuff that was on your truck?
A: I gave it to Charles Manson.
Q: Do you remember when you did that?
A: It was right before I left Dennis Wilson's house and after Dean had been talking to me, telling me about Charlie and all of the philosophies and stuff.
Q: Can you fix the time of it for us?
A: It was around in August of '68.
Q: What did you give Charlie Manson?
A: I gave him the truck and all of the possessions that I had in the truck at the time.
Q: You mean you physically just turned it over to him?
A: Yes, that’s correct.
Q: And you actually turned it over to Manson; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have a pink slip for this truck?
A: I don't believe I had a pink slip, but I had a bill of sale.
Q: Did you give that to Manson?
A: Yes, I did. I believe a girl by the name of Ruth Moorehouse, Charlie put it in her name.
Q: Do you know that of your own knowledge?
A: No, it never did go in her name because the truck stayed in my name, I found out later; but I believe I do remember her signing something to get it, you know.
Q: Did Mr. Manson ever tell you what he did with this property?
A: No, he said, I believe, something to the effect he just let it kind of flow through him.
Q: Was there any particular reason for giving it to a woman or a girl?
A: Well, he said that he always put it in the girls' name, because he knew the girls would stay with him, where he didn't know about the guys completely. Be knew that the guys were always running off and he didn't want anything in the men's name, wanted to keep it in the girls' names because he had control of all the girls.
Q: Well, did you have any feelings about. turning your truck and property over to Mr. Manson?
A: No, I just gave it right to him.
Q: Did you want to do that?
A: At the time, that's what I did, you know.
Q: Had you been talking to Dean Moorehouse frequently?
A: Yes, like I was living with Dean, you know, day and night; and this is what he would preach. He would preach Manson's philosophy and also out of the bible.
Q: Did you know anything about Dean Moorehouse at all?
A: Just that he had told me that he'd given his --- that he had set one daughter free, and this was Ruth he was talking about, because he had given her to Charles Manson; and that Charlie had given him LSD up north, and that he was an ex-Methodist minister.
Q: Is that what Dean moorehouse told you?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: Did he quote the scriptures?
A: Yes, he was always reading out of the bible and quoting the scriptures and relating the bible to Manson's philosophy.
Q: Was there anybody -- strike that.
Did Dean Moorehouse tell you anything about anybody in the family, the Manson family, owning anything in their own name?
A: No,none at all; everything was one. He used to talk about the oneness and how everybody was -- how you gave up your identity and all of your wants and all of your desires and all your thought and became one, as one person.
Q: Were you permitted to own property in your own name as a member of the family?
A: No.
Q: Did Morehouse say anything about that?
A: He said that everything belonged to one and the one was Manson.
Q: Now, you said something about you left, you moved from Dennis' when, in August of ‘68?
A: That's correct.
Q: Where did you go then, if you remember?
A: Dean Moorehouse and I went up north to his trial. He was having a trial on LSD or something; he was being tried on LSD.
Q: Do you remember where the trial was being conducted?
A: No, I know it was on the other side of San Francisco.
Q: You mean north of San Francisco?
A: North of San Francisco.
Q: How did you get up there?
A: We went in Terry Melcher's car.
Q: Had you ever met Terry Melchor?
A: Yes, I met Terry Melcher at Dennis' house at -- I guess you'd call it kind of a party, like Dean and I was living there and then Greg Jakobson was living there, and a bunch of Greg's and Dennis' friends just happened to be over one day and I guess you'd call, it kind of a party, I think.
Q: Is that the first time that you met Terry Melcher?
A: Yes. I met him that times that was the first time. I remember Dean said that was Doris Day's son or something like that.
Q: Can you remember when this occurred?
A: It was in the last month that we were at Dennis Wilson's house. That would have been in August.
Q: August of '68?
A: Yes.
Q: When you say you went with Dean Moorehouse to his trial in Terry Melcher's car, where did you get that car?
A: Terry, I believe Dean had been talking to Terry about going up north and Terry offered Dean his car to use.
Q: Were you with Dean when he picked up the car?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Do you remember where Terry Melcher was living at the time?
A: He was living -- it is on Cielo Drive, I believe, off of Benedict Canyon Road.
Q: How did you get up there, if you remember? I am talking about the day you went with Dean to get the car.
A: Yes. Dean had already picked up the car and he had asked me to come along with him on the trip, when we moved out of Dennis' house, and went by Terry Melcher's house to pick up his credit card.
Q: Whose credit card?
A: Terry Melcher's credit card.
Q: Dean already had Terry Melcher's car; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Now he was going to get Terry Meletter's credit card?
A: That is correct.
Q: Do you remember a gate somewhere in the driveway leading up to the Terry Melcher house?
A: It seems like I recall it but I don't believe --- I can't recall it having any big thing on it right now. I do recall going through a gate, yes.
Q: Do you remember whether it was open or closed when you got up there?
A: I can't remember at that time.
Q: After you got in the front of the house, do you remember what you did?
A: We went in the house in the front room..
Q: Did you knock on the door to get in the house?
A: I can't recall.
Q: You went in the house with Dean Moorehouse?
A: With Dean, yes.
Q: Had you ever been in that house before?
A: No, not before, no.
Q: This was the very first time you had ever been in it?
A: This was the first time.
Q: Ever been at a party at that. house?
A: No, no party at that house.
Q: And you went into the front room, did you?
A: Yes, right.
Q: And Dean was also share?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Did something happen between Dean and Terry?
A: No. I remember we sat around in the front room, Dean and Terry and I, and we smoked some Marijuana together.
Q: Was there anybody else there with Terry Melcher?
A: His maid was there and his butler, I believe he called it, or chauffeur.
Q: They didn't smoke any marijuana?
A: No.
Q: The three of you smoked marijuana. How long did you stay on that occasion?
A: I don't recall. I can't recall. I can't recall how long we stayed -- not too long, though, an hour I would say or something like that.
Q: And then I take it you left sometime shortly after that?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: Did Dean get Terry's credit card?
A: Yes, his credit card and his car.
Q: What sort of a car did he get?
A: It was a black XKE.
Q: Jaguar?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you drive up north with Dean?
A: Yes. Before going up north, though, we went by a place called the Fountain of the World. where Charlie Manson was, had a school bus parked there.
Q: Where is the Fountain of the World?
A: That is up in Box Canyon close to Spahn's Ranch.
Q: That is in the Chatsworth area?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you ever been there before?
A: No. That was the first time.
THE COURT: Mr. Bubrick, might this be a good time to recess.
MR. BUBRICK: Yes.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen we will recess at this time until 1:30.
Please once again heed the admonition heretofore given by the court.
The spectators will remain seated until the jury leaves.
(The noon recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)
